These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Nerfing Jump Freighters to increase independence of Null Sec

Author
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-07-13 17:45:02 UTC
Nerfing Jump Freighters to increase independence of Null Sec
I thought Jump Freighters are meant to make moving stuff around in null sec easier, enabling null sec to be self sustaining not to provide an instant way to get stuff easily to Jita to buy and sell.
As it stands you can Jump out of or a High sec location, and pop into an Isolated Null or low sec system that is under you control next to a heavily weaponized POS.
To get into empire you just light a Cyno at a gate, and the Jump Freighter is able to jump next to the gate then Jump Instantly into the safety of high sec, losing a few isk in a cyno ship.
This makes it far too easy for 1 person to get materials out to Null sec and Material in Null sec to Jita with little cost, making the risk of of null sec local production unprofitable.

Removing The Gate Jump ability of Jump Freighters will still make them still super useful in moving material from Low or Null sec in a flash but will open up the opportunity to gate games for freighters.
As compensation increase the size of the Hold. This will only compete with the Titan and Freighter service the larger alliance use currently. And prevent the Rorqual from Taking over the role of the Jump Freighter. Or give Rigs to Jump Frieghters to allow them to increase their Hold capacity.

Another option may make them unable to enter Empire space by law as a New Power head of Concord is on a power trip to weaken the outer alliances in hopes that Concord can spread influence into player control and pirate controlled space.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Keira Kashuken
Daikoku Innovations
#2 - 2013-07-13 19:18:55 UTC
Nullsec absolutely depends on a fast connection to Highsec with the current state of Nullsec ores and industry options.
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-07-13 19:21:21 UTC
I was thinking of something like this before. 0.0 it's very easy to obtain supplies there due to jump freighters, you can haul a lot of Rokh's at once etc with a Jump Freighter, and its very safe since it has a jump drive.

Nullsec isn't that independant due to that. If 0.0 focused on requiring more indy to obtain supplies etc it may end up being a good idea.

Maybe removing JF's and replacing them with ships which are much weaker and smaller such as an Itty V with a jump drive you are thinking?
Arma Taga
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-07-13 19:22:51 UTC
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-07-13 19:28:33 UTC
Call Rollard wrote:
I was thinking of something like this before. 0.0 it's very easy to obtain supplies there due to jump freighters, you can haul a lot of Rokh's at once etc with a Jump Freighter, and its very safe since it has a jump drive.

Nullsec isn't that independant due to that. If 0.0 focused on requiring more indy to obtain supplies etc it may end up being a good idea.

Maybe removing JF's and replacing them with ships which are much weaker and smaller such as an Itty V with a jump drive you are thinking?


0.0 still needs better manufacturing in order to even begin to be able to supply their needs locally. Until then they will always need lots from empire.

Even if they had the manufacturing capacity, it still would need to be competitive with HS vs just importing.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-07-13 19:49:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gevlin
The Reward of the Jump Freigther with in its role, is far too much compared to the risk.
Leaving the Alternative of building locally a non competitive option.

Removing Possible targets from Null sec for roamers.

Seems to be the introduction of the jump freighter was a simple dumbing down the game.
Get Moon goo, Sell Moon goo in Jita, Pick up ships in Jita, Return home to pick up more moon goo.
Things are changing, but until something is done with Jump freighters there is reason to go local when High sec chooses to have such a low mark up

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#7 - 2013-07-13 20:26:19 UTC
You know with this system they can just land a JF on a pos and send a freighter in when the system is empty or send industrials to ferry if it isn't?
It doesn't actually change anything it just cuts the light show of them leaving high.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#8 - 2013-07-13 21:20:50 UTC
JF's are a minute part of the problem of the sore/raw status of the Jita teat.

Industry ought to be engaging, require numerous people to get involved and an obscene amount of materials moving around .. sort of like the real world.

-Introduce hard limits to station/outpost ore capacities, those Planck bubbles are getting overworked and are in danger of complete collapse.
- Introduce external modules to stations (think services) if more than is 'normal' is wanted .. ie. modular system with everything beyond the core needing protection immediate/permanent protection.
** Basically the minimum requirements for a supply line system. Pirates have kids to feed too!

- Allow more than one outpost per system, base it on some arbitrary skill if need be.
- Make outposts destructible.
** Core system can have a massively upgraded sprawl of an outpost performing better than five individuals but more vulnerable to attack.

- Vastly decrease cyno efficiency when used for invasions, first thing should be space superiority and not just a random alt in a recon.
Consider changing jumping from a raw parsec value to a gates-passed type of thing, and apply detrimental effects to cyno/jump the further behind enemy lines you drop .. mandate a wardec requirement for any cyno X gates into targets space.
** Tweaking parsecs or cyno delay alone will be insufficient in curbing force projection .. people will just increase the blob, add more cyno alts/spies and continue to abuse the goodwill of the Empires who let them pitstop in their space (low-sec).

- Make mining matter! Boring as hell ... give us semi-permanent mining outposts on whopper asteroids, strip mining by the barrel of a gun (dps to break them up, mining vessel to hoover the whole thing) and some other way for cooperation to magnify output rather than just act as a base multiplier.
- Give us more options to get raw materials, why are all those pirate installations left as debris in space for instance .. strip those suckers down!
** Mining is so boring that it was for the longest time a bot job (bots are gone, surely!), making it varied and conducive to co-op play makes all the ills go away.

But as with all things, nothing of the sort will ever be. The extent of CCP's vision seems to amount to a timer deal on cynos and planetary belt mining, methinks they are scared of thinking big out of fear of the potential work they'd have to put in to reach high goals .. despite the fact that they have one of the biggest brain-trusts on the planet chomping at the bit to help them (ie. the player base)
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#9 - 2013-07-13 22:16:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellendras Silver
Keira Kashuken wrote:
Nullsec absolutely depends on a fast connection to Highsec with the current state of Nullsec ores and industry options.


no the big alliances make it that way because they realy dont want too much industry in 0.0 (read only caps and super cap production) import everything from jita because they can.

i think 0.0 becomes way more interesting if this changes, lot of people will love it lots will hate it... now lets find out where CCP stands



there is a HUGE diffrence between not independend and importing EVERYTHING

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#10 - 2013-07-13 22:21:40 UTC
0.0 logistic has been trivialized in the last years. Till will be more easy and convenient to jump in jita and import what needed from there a true industry will never grow there, simply becuase is not needed.

Also the current model (again, trivialization of the area operated in the last years) make not relevant living and operating (and fighhting to control) in these systems to hold sovreignity.

These 2 factors make everything mundane there. And turned the area in a giant consensual arena for capital fights. Abbandoned and marginalizzed in EVE development.


Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2013-07-13 22:46:14 UTC
Speaking as a nullsec resident, small time industrialist and line member of the CFC, I would really rather not have to pay massively over the odds for my ships, nor sink hour after hour into mining the minerals to replace my losses.

However. I own a carrier, and posses highsec alts. This means I can import my own **** easily enough without relying on JF services. How is the lower SP nullsec player supposed to stay in ships? Or the guys who don't happen to have carriers laying around? How are the newbies supposed to cope if they can't get what they need? How are we supposed to get t2 gear out there? Or ammo?

More importantly, why is nerfing the ability of smaller nullsec alliances to actually keep themselves supplied considered a good thing? The CFC and the rest of the big guys will adapt, use carriers, run JFs out of well camped lowsec systems etc, but the small groups? The renters, the NPC null guys, people like that? How do they cope?

Null cannot sustain itself entirely on local production. I suspect this is entirely intentional on CCP's part. Please explain why living in nullsec should be considerably more painful than it currently is, with no boost to the rewards for the average player.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#12 - 2013-07-13 23:47:07 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:


I own a carrier, and posses highsec alts. This means I can import my own **** easily enough without relying on JF services. How is the lower SP nullsec player supposed to stay in ships? Or the guys who don't happen to have carriers laying around? How are the newbies supposed to cope if they can't get what they need? How are we supposed to get t2 gear out there? Or ammo?


Yes, but indeed is not just a matter of nerfing JF.

However, even before JF null existed, and wasn't less populated, had large and small alliances, and was probably more alive than now.

And I don't think was harder for new players or small groups.
When I first moved in null I was like 2 months old, was barely able to pilot a BC and totally dependent from my corp for modules and all. Wasn't a large corp in a large alliance. We had few carriers and few industrialist, managed to set up a logistic system to import what we needed from HS and to build what we could build in there. We never needed to mine: minerals from loot reprocessing was generally enough.

Not saying have to be so, just to say that people organize and work problems out.

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#13 - 2013-07-14 00:34:04 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
...Null cannot sustain itself entirely on local production. I suspect this is entirely intentional on CCP's part. Please explain why living in nullsec should be considerably more painful than it currently is, with no boost to the rewards for the average player.

As it is, no .. at least not without people snapping along the way. But you seem to think that it is an either/or deal which it is not, if done right then null living will be easier with all low-tech stuff (ie. hulls) built locally with only the high-tech being imported.

It all comes back to mining and all the brain cells that leaves in its wake, CCP recently upped yields of base materials in an attempt to encourage local mining and it might work, although I doubt it .. at least not to the levels that are required.

My question is: Where does null get all the ISK it burns in Jita and why isn't resource collection in one form or another tagged onto that activity?
If people has the choice between spending ten hours getting filthy space-rich, buying everything they want and ten hours getting space-bored, building most of what they want then there is no choice.

In short: Sort mining and you will be more than half-way home as it pertains to null self-sufficiency with everything else taking a back seat.

Keira Kashuken
Daikoku Innovations
#14 - 2013-07-14 01:53:05 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:


I own a carrier, and posses highsec alts. This means I can import my own **** easily enough without relying on JF services. How is the lower SP nullsec player supposed to stay in ships? Or the guys who don't happen to have carriers laying around? How are the newbies supposed to cope if they can't get what they need? How are we supposed to get t2 gear out there? Or ammo?


Yes, but indeed is not just a matter of nerfing JF.

However, even before JF null existed, and wasn't less populated, had large and small alliances, and was probably more alive than now.

And I don't think was harder for new players or small groups.
When I first moved in null I was like 2 months old, was barely able to pilot a BC and totally dependent from my corp for modules and all. Wasn't a large corp in a large alliance. We had few carriers and few industrialist, managed to set up a logistic system to import what we needed from HS and to build what we could build in there. We never needed to mine: minerals from loot reprocessing was generally enough.

Not saying have to be so, just to say that people organize and work problems out.



Its easy to live in Null if you get everything handed from your corp (Yes this coming from a Goon is rather ironic).
This only works because most corps/alliances have a few masochistic people that go out of their way to do logistic stuff and keep their friends well equipped. Logistic system is a nice euphemism for "somebody else do it"

Also: if your corp could get enough minerals for ship production from loot reprocessing, then you were a huge bunch of carebears. Thats not necessarily bad, but this wont work for pvp corps.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2013-07-14 04:46:32 UTC
Why make one of the more godawful aspects of the game more godawful?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
#16 - 2013-07-14 04:56:54 UTC
If you want to make 0.0 more sustainable you have to make it able to sustain itself first, station slots are far too low compared to highsec. So by nerfing transportation you aren't likely to see significant improvement in sufficiency when you hardly have enough slots in general to do anything. Sure there is plenty of ore and moon materials, but slots are the key element missing. Plus upgrading stations is so expensive it makes little sense considering you can lose it anyhow.

So nerfing JFs would likely make 0.0 even more of a ghost town.

I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2013-07-14 05:48:07 UTC
Also, low sec pirate alt detected....looking for a mechanics change to try and get some JF kills.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Legion40k
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#18 - 2013-07-14 08:10:24 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
To get into empire you just light a Cyno at a gate


Shocked
Bakuhz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-07-14 09:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Bakuhz
you bears screaming for nerfign a JF the hell is wrong with you it is the only reason you dumb scary bears make any isk at all
the major alliances buy ores minerals for the replacement of JF, cariers dreads supers titans and all the other very very expensive crap.

and usually just buy all the sub capitals and all the rigs and gear needed for it.

just to punish you i would ban moon goo from high sec and buill your preciuous hulks and tech II equipment in low sec and only sell it from there so alot of you bears need to risk your hairy buts to get anything good at all.
or maybe only sell it in null with sov lvl 5 systems with cyno jammers.

this part of the game is well balanced and works good.
and it is not without risk.
and the rest of the traders that cry here well keep saving isk so you can get yourself a JF and stop crying

take a cup of concrete and harden the F up!!!

https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/

Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#20 - 2013-07-14 10:49:48 UTC
Legion40k wrote:
Gevlin wrote:
To get into empire you just light a Cyno at a gate


Shocked


cyno at low sec gate that leads to high sec jump to low then enter gate

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

123Next pageLast page