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Order in which multipliers are applied
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He Chaoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-07-09 20:31:39 UTC
Hello,

I have a question about multipliers. Are all the multipliers from bonuses accumulated and then applied, or are they applied individually? If the latter: In what order are they applied?
E.g.: I recieve a bonus of 30% and a bonus from 25%. is X multiplied by 1,55 OR is ((x*1,3)*1,25) ?

Also, if this differs between variables (velocity, rate of fire, etc.) please appoint what sytem works in what case.

PS: there is no need to mention diminishing returns, I am aware of that.

Thanks in advance,
He
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-07-09 20:36:17 UTC
Skill/ship bonus are applied as a total %
Module/rig bonus are applied each as a % of the remaining stats after the last bonus applied.
I'm not so sure that makes sense. I need more coffee
He Chaoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-07-09 20:43:14 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
Skill/ship bonus are applied as a total %
Module/rig bonus are applied each as a % of the remaining stats after the last bonus applied.
I'm not so sure that makes sense. I need more coffee


So skills and ship bonuses that affect a variable are accumulated and then applied? so x*1,55 for the example above?
Makes perfect sense, could you tell me where I could verify that? (Where did you found that info)
I dont really get what you mean with module/rig bonuses, could you clarify that for me please?
Drax Concrilla
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-07-09 20:44:31 UTC
See this for a more detailed explanation of how stacking works: Eve Uni to the Rescue
He Chaoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-07-09 20:48:14 UTC
Drax Concrilla wrote:
See this for a more detailed explanation of how stacking works: Eve Uni to the Rescue


He Chaoz wrote:
PS: there is no need to mention diminishing returns, I am aware of that.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-07-09 20:51:53 UTC
everything in eve stacks multiplicatively and most of the time are subject to stacking penalties apart from a few notable exceptions (damage control and reactive armour hardener).

Art of Explosions
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-07-09 20:57:41 UTC
it depends on the stat. resistances behave differently than weapon damage amplifiers which again behave differently than rate of fire bonuses. i'm too lazy to type, you'll have to google the formula for each stat.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-07-09 20:58:29 UTC
He Chaoz wrote:
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
Skill/ship bonus are applied as a total %
Module/rig bonus are applied each as a % of the remaining stats after the last bonus applied.
I'm not so sure that makes sense. I need more coffee


So skills and ship bonuses that affect a variable are accumulated and then applied? so x*1,55 for the example above?
Makes perfect sense, could you tell me where I could verify that? (Where did you found that info)
I dont really get what you mean with module/rig bonuses, could you clarify that for me please?



An EANM gives you 20% resistance across the board. An energized em membrane then givea you 35.7%. That 35.7% is taken from the remaining 80%, not the original 100% so...diminishing returns.
He Chaoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-07-09 20:59:12 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
everything in eve stacks multiplicatively and most of the time are subject to stacking penalties apart from a few notable exceptions (damage control and reactive armour hardener).


Thanks for your answer. Alas, due to the language and my understandings of math, I dont know what you mean by 'multiplicatively', could you explain it for me please?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-07-09 20:59:17 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
everything in eve stacks multiplicatively

resistances are added together, so are flat boni to cpu, cap etc.

I should buy an Ishtar.
He Chaoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-07-09 21:07:53 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
An EANM gives you 20% resistance across the board. An energized em membrane then givea you 35.7%. That 35.7% is taken from the remaining 80%, not the original 100% so...diminishing returns.


OK. But that's only the case for resistances, right?

___

Here's the deal guys: In a Bellicose fitting, with Min Cruiser V and Signature Focusing V, you get a 37,5% and a 25% bonus to Target Painting. Now, is the formula either A: 30*1,625 or B: (30*1,375)*1,25? (or, in the case of a specific order to bonuses being applied, even a option C: (30*1,25)*1,375?

I'm also interested how it would work for other variables.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-07-09 21:07:59 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
everything in eve stacks multiplicatively

resistances are added together, so are flat boni to cpu, cap etc.


I stand corrected as to my specific example. Thanks Dan.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-07-09 21:09:12 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
everything in eve stacks multiplicatively

resistances are added together, so are flat boni to cpu, cap etc.


um, no theyre not?

And please don't ever write "boni" again, it's not a word.

Art of Explosions
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-07-09 21:10:14 UTC
He Chaoz wrote:
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
An EANM gives you 20% resistance across the board. An energized em membrane then givea you 35.7%. That 35.7% is taken from the remaining 80%, not the original 100% so...diminishing returns.


OK. But that's only the case for resistances, right?

___

Here's the deal guys: In a Bellicose fitting, with Min Cruiser V and Signature Focusing V, you get a 37,5% and a 25% bonus to Target Painting. Now, is the formula either A: 30*1,625 or B: (30*1,375)*1,25? (or, in the case of a specific order to bonuses being applied, even a option C: (30*1,25)*1,375?

I'm also interested how it would work for other variables.



There is no order, because you multiply all factors together, there is no addition.

Art of Explosions
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#15 - 2013-07-09 21:10:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Bonus Multiplier = (1 + bonus1) * (1 + bonus2) * (1 + bonus3) * ... * (1 + bonusN)

Stacking penalty applies to some modules and rigs with the same effect. The effects are sorted from largest to smallest before applying penalties.

Aenigma's Stacking Penalty Guide

Number of modules/rigs Stacking penalty
1 1.000000000000
2 0.869119980800
3 0.570583143511
4 0.282955154023
5 0.105992649743
6 0.029991166533
7 0.006410183118
8 0.001034920483
9 0.000126212683
10 0.000011626754
11 0.000000809046

Bonus Multiplier = (1 + bonus1 * 1.0) * (1 + bonus2 * 0.869119980800) * (1 + bonus3 * 0.570583143511)
He Chaoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-07-09 21:15:56 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Bonus Multiplier = (1 + bonus1) * (1 + bonus2) * (1 + bonus3) * ... * (1 + bonusN)

Stacking penalty applies to some modules with the same effect. The effects are sorted from largest to smallest before applying penalties.

Aenigma's Stacking Penalty Guide

Number of modules/rigs Stacking penalty
1 1.000000000000
2 0.869119980800
3 0.570583143511
4 0.282955154023
5 0.105992649743
6 0.029991166533
7 0.006410183118
8 0.001034920483
9 0.000126212683
10 0.000011626754
11 0.000000809046

Bonus Multiplier = (1 + bonus1 * 1.0) * (1 + bonus2 * 0.869119980800) * (1 + bonus3 * 0.570583143511)


Thanks everybody for replying in my topic to help me but for God's sake, read the original post thoroughly and then reply. I am (specifically) not asking about diminishing returns nor am I asking something about resistances in specific.
He Chaoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-07-09 21:18:24 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
He Chaoz wrote:
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
An EANM gives you 20% resistance across the board. An energized em membrane then givea you 35.7%. That 35.7% is taken from the remaining 80%, not the original 100% so...diminishing returns.


OK. But that's only the case for resistances, right?

___

Here's the deal guys: In a Bellicose fitting, with Min Cruiser V and Signature Focusing V, you get a 37,5% and a 25% bonus to Target Painting. Now, is the formula either A: 30*1,625 or B: (30*1,375)*1,25? (or, in the case of a specific order to bonuses being applied, even a option C: (30*1,25)*1,375?

I'm also interested how it would work for other variables.



There is no order, because you multiply all factors together, there is no addition.


So you are saying is, all modifiers are added together and then applied to the variable? (30*1,625)?
Where did you found that information?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-07-09 21:20:24 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
everything in eve stacks multiplicatively

resistances are added together, so are flat boni to cpu, cap etc.


um, no theyre not?
yes they are, otherwise T1 ships would not be able to get EM shield resistance.
Quote:
And please don't ever write "boni" again, it's not a word.
depends on the language.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#19 - 2013-07-09 21:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
*deleted* I give up.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-07-09 21:27:38 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
everything in eve stacks multiplicatively

resistances are added together, so are flat boni to cpu, cap etc.


um, no theyre not?
yes they are, otherwise T1 ships would not be able to get EM shield resistance.
Quote:
And please don't ever write "boni" again, it's not a word.
depends on the language.


You are completely wrong, if resistances were added then it would be possible to get 100% resistances on t2 and t3 hulls.

Obviously there is a code exception which states that if the base resistance is 0 then the first module will add the relevant resistance instead of multiplying by 0.

We are speaking english, there is no word "boni" in the english language. Please use the correct pluralisation "bonuses", if you would like to write in German there is a dedicated forum for that.

Art of Explosions
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