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Order in which multipliers are applied
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He Chaoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-07-09 21:28:01 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
He Chaoz wrote:
Thanks everybody for replying in my topic to help me but for God's sake, read the original post thoroughly and then reply. I am (specifically) not asking about diminishing returns nor am I asking something about resistances in specific.

One really cannot discuss resistance bonuses without mentioning stacking penalties.

Resistances are affected by resistance modules, resistance rigs, and damage controls. Damage controls are not stacking penalized, but the rest are.

Note that ship resistance bonuses are not stacking penalized either. [Neither are implants, nor skill bonuses when applicable.]

If there is a stacking penalty, the ring or module will indicate so.


Why, good sir, are you discussing resistance bonuses in my topic about modifiers in general and the order (or not) in which they are applied?

You know what, nevermind. I'll head to BattleClinic
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-07-09 21:30:48 UTC
He Chaoz wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
He Chaoz wrote:
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
An EANM gives you 20% resistance across the board. An energized em membrane then givea you 35.7%. That 35.7% is taken from the remaining 80%, not the original 100% so...diminishing returns.


OK. But that's only the case for resistances, right?

___

Here's the deal guys: In a Bellicose fitting, with Min Cruiser V and Signature Focusing V, you get a 37,5% and a 25% bonus to Target Painting. Now, is the formula either A: 30*1,625 or B: (30*1,375)*1,25? (or, in the case of a specific order to bonuses being applied, even a option C: (30*1,25)*1,375?

I'm also interested how it would work for other variables.



There is no order, because you multiply all factors together, there is no addition.


So you are saying is, all modifiers are added together and then applied to the variable? (30*1,625)?
Where did you found that information?


im saying all modifiers are MULTIPLIED together and the MULTIPLIED with the base value.

Art of Explosions
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#23 - 2013-07-09 21:33:03 UTC

Things generally work multiplicatively:

Example:
For T2 Nuetron Blaster Damage on a Thorax:
Total Damage =
Base Damage Modifier (=4.41 for a Nuetron Blaster) *
( 1 + .05 * Gallente Cruiser Level) * |
( 1 + .05 * Med Hyb Turret Level) * | Skills don't have Stacking Penalties
( 1 + .02 * Med Blaster Spec Level) * |
( 1 + .03 * Surgical Strike Level) * |
( 1 + .10 for the first t2 Magnetic Field stabilizer) *
( 1 + .10 for the second T2 MFS * 0.869 <- stacking Penaltiy for second module altering the same attribute) *
( 1 + .10 for the thrid T2 MFS * 0.571 <- Stacking Penalty for the third module altering the same attribute) *
( 1 + .10 for the Hybrid Collision Accelerator Rig * 0.283 <- Stacking Penalty for the fourth Module alter the same attribute)

= 11.328 at all level 5's
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#24 - 2013-07-09 21:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
resistances, ignoring stacking penalties:

Resistance 1: 30%
Resistance 2: 25%

Resistances are applied to incoming damage. So, 100 damage coming in.

100 * (1-0.3) * (1-0.25)

or 52.5 damage remaining. resistance of 47.5%

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
He Chaoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-07-09 21:42:36 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Things generally work multiplicatively:

Example:
For T2 Nuetron Blaster Damage on a Thorax:
Total Damage =
Base Damage Modifier (=4.41 for a Nuetron Blaster) *
( 1 + .05 * Gallente Cruiser Level) * |
( 1 + .05 * Med Hyb Turret Level) * | Skills don't have Stacking Penalties
( 1 + .02 * Med Blaster Spec Level) * |
( 1 + .03 * Surgical Strike Level) * |
( 1 + .10 for the first t2 Magnetic Field stabilizer) *
( 1 + .10 for the second T2 MFS * 0.869 <- stacking Penaltiy for second module altering the same attribute) *
( 1 + .10 for the thrid T2 MFS * 0.571 <- Stacking Penalty for the third module altering the same attribute) *
( 1 + .10 for the Hybrid Collision Accelerator Rig * 0.283 <- Stacking Penalty for the fourth Module alter the same attribute)

= 11.328 at all level 5's


Thanks for your answer. Could you explain to me how I apply this into the field of Ewar? So how do I calculate bonuses for target painting? Target painters dont have base modifiers, afaik.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#26 - 2013-07-09 21:42:37 UTC
He Chaoz wrote:
Why, good sir, are you discussing resistance bonuses in my topic about modifiers in general and the order (or not) in which they are applied?

Because resistances was brought by others, and bonus order is applicable to stacking penalties only.

Resistance are also an odd case, in that they are not applied as-is, but rather to the difference between 100%.

He Chaoz wrote:
You know what, nevermind. I'll head to BattleClinic

Lol. good luck there.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#27 - 2013-07-09 21:53:43 UTC

Example:

Shield Thermal Resist on a Drake with 2x IFs, 1 anti-Therm Shield Rig, and a DCU.
Base Thermal resist on a Drake's Shields (20%): Don't look at this as a 20% increase in resists, look at this as it receives only 80% of the incoming damage!

It is best to look at this as damage it receives. Starting with 1:
1 * ( .8 From Base resists ) *
( 1 - .04 * Caldari Battlecruiser Skill Level) *
( 1 - .125 from Damage Control II <-- special module that does not stack) *
( 1 - .30 from the First Invulnerability Field II ) *
( 1 - .30 From the 2nd IF * 0.87 <- Stacking Penalty for second Module) *
( 1 - .30 From the Anti-Therm Rig * .57 <- Stacking Penalty for the third Module)

= 0.240
If you were to receive 100 damage incoming, only 24 damage would be inflicted to your shield HP.
Your Shield resistances would be 1 - 0.240 = .76 = 76%
He Chaoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-07-09 21:58:45 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Example:

Shield Thermal Resist on a Drake with 2x IFs, 1 anti-Therm Shield Rig, and a DCU.
Base Thermal resist on a Drake's Shields (20%): Don't look at this as a 20% increase in resists, look at this as it receives only 80% of the incoming damage!

It is best to look at this as damage it receives. Starting with 1:
1 * ( .8 From Base resists ) *
( 1 - .04 * Caldari Battlecruiser Skill Level) *
( 1 - .125 from Damage Control II <-- special module that does not stack) *
( 1 - .30 from the First Invulnerability Field II ) *
( 1 - .30 From the 2nd IF * 0.87 <- Stacking Penalty for second Module) *
( 1 - .30 From the Anti-Therm Rig * .57 <- Stacking Penalty for the third Module)

= 0.240
If you were to receive 100 damage incoming, only 24 damage would be inflicted to your shield HP.
Your Shield resistances would be 1 - 0.240 = .76 = 76%


Thanks again, for your reply. Could you explain to me how it works in the case of the Target Painting?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#29 - 2013-07-09 22:09:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
He Chaoz wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Things generally work multiplicatively:

Example:
For T2 Nuetron Blaster Damage on a Thorax:
Total Damage =
Base Damage Modifier (=4.41 for a Nuetron Blaster) *
( 1 + .05 * Gallente Cruiser Level) * |
( 1 + .05 * Med Hyb Turret Level) * | Skills don't have Stacking Penalties
( 1 + .02 * Med Blaster Spec Level) * |
( 1 + .03 * Surgical Strike Level) * |
( 1 + .10 for the first t2 Magnetic Field stabilizer) *
( 1 + .10 for the second T2 MFS * 0.869 <- stacking Penaltiy for second module altering the same attribute) *
( 1 + .10 for the thrid T2 MFS * 0.571 <- Stacking Penalty for the third module altering the same attribute) *
( 1 + .10 for the Hybrid Collision Accelerator Rig * 0.283 <- Stacking Penalty for the fourth Module alter the same attribute)

= 11.328 at all level 5's


Thanks for your answer. Could you explain to me how I apply this into the field of Ewar? So how do I calculate bonuses for target painting? Target painters dont have base modifiers, afaik.


Ok, The increase in sig radius of your target, from a Huggin with 3x T2 Target Painters, assuming all level 5 skills:

The signature Radius Bonus of each module should be calculated first:
Sig boost from a single t2 Paint = +30% (Base module value) *
( 1 + .05 * Signature Focusing Skill Level ) *
( 1 + .10 * Minmatar Cruiser Skill Level )
== +56.25% per painter with all level V Skills

So, a Frigate with a 40 m Signature will have
40 (no Paints)
40 * ( 1 + 0.5625 ) = 62.5 m (1 Paint)
40 * ( 1 + 0.5625 ) * ( 1 + 0.5625 * .87 <-- Stacking Penalty for Second Module) = 93.1 m (2 Paints)
40 * ( 1 + 0.5625 ) * ( 1 + 0.5625 * .87 ) * ( 1 + 0.5625 * .57 <-- Stacking Penalty for Third Module) = 122.9 m (3 Paints)

Note: Most frigs do not have exactly 40 m as their sig size... The ship type, and how it is fit will change this value.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#30 - 2013-07-09 22:13:10 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
resistances, ignoring stacking penalties:

Resistance 1: 30%
Resistance 2: 25%

Resistances are applied to incoming damage. So, 100 damage coming in.

100 * (1-0.3) * (1-0.25)

or 52.5 damage remaining. resistance of 47.5%


Modules that increase your ships Resistances do NOT ignore stacking penalties... That's simply incorrect.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#31 - 2013-07-09 22:17:22 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
resistances, ignoring stacking penalties:

Resistance 1: 30%
Resistance 2: 25%

Resistances are applied to incoming damage. So, 100 damage coming in.

100 * (1-0.3) * (1-0.25)

or 52.5 damage remaining. resistance of 47.5%


Modules that increase your ships Resistances do NOT ignore stacking penalties... That's simply incorrect.




I wasn't meaning that they didn't. Just describing how they applied without the added complexity of stacking penalties. Smile

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#32 - 2013-07-09 22:25:54 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
He Chaoz wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Things generally work multiplicatively:

Example:
For T2 Nuetron Blaster Damage on a Thorax:
Total Damage =
Base Damage Modifier (=4.41 for a Nuetron Blaster) *
( 1 + .05 * Gallente Cruiser Level) * |
( 1 + .05 * Med Hyb Turret Level) * | Skills don't have Stacking Penalties
( 1 + .02 * Med Blaster Spec Level) * |
( 1 + .03 * Surgical Strike Level) * |
( 1 + .10 for the first t2 Magnetic Field stabilizer) *
( 1 + .10 for the second T2 MFS * 0.869 <- stacking Penaltiy for second module altering the same attribute) *
( 1 + .10 for the thrid T2 MFS * 0.571 <- Stacking Penalty for the third module altering the same attribute) *
( 1 + .10 for the Hybrid Collision Accelerator Rig * 0.283 <- Stacking Penalty for the fourth Module alter the same attribute)

= 11.328 at all level 5's


Thanks for your answer. Could you explain to me how I apply this into the field of Ewar? So how do I calculate bonuses for target painting? Target painters dont have base modifiers, afaik.


Ok, The increase in sig radius of your target, from a Huggin with 3x T2 Target Painters, assuming all level 5 skills:

The signature Radius Bonus of each module should be calculated first:
Sig boost from a single t2 Paint = +30% (Base module value) *
( 1 + .05 * Signature Focusing Skill Level ) *
( 1 + .10 * Minmatar Cruiser Skill Level )
== +56.25% per painter with all level V Skills

So, a Frigate with a 40 m Signature will have
40 (no Paints)
40 * ( 1 + 0.5625 ) = 62.5 m (1 Paint)
40 * ( 1 + 0.5625 ) * ( 1 + 0.5625 * .87 <-- Stacking Penalty for Second Module) = 93.1 m (2 Paints)
40 * ( 1 + 0.5625 ) * ( 1 + 0.5625 * .87 ) * ( 1 + 0.5625 * .57 <-- Stacking Penalty for Third Module) = 122.9 m (3 Paints)

Note: Most frigs do not have exactly 40 m as their sig size... The ship type, and how it is fit will change this value.


I understand how you are worried about order:
For example, if you are being TP'd by 3x Paints, Two bonused for +56.25%, and perhaps a third paint from an unskilled, unbonused ship, which may only give +30%. The question might be, how does the game determine which paint counts as the "first module" without penalty, which one is the "second module" which is only 87% effective, and which modules is the "third" coming at at 57% effective.

The game orders modules by their potency, so the 30% module, being the least potent, would receive the 57% stacking penalty. This works the same with Resistance enhancers, Damage Amplifiers, etc.

Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-07-09 22:30:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Praxis Ginimic
Honestly dude, too many of us (myself included) have spent way too long hunting down formulas and eft'ing our brains out. The best way to get results is to fit the thing up and go shoot something.

Find a frig, kill the frig, assess, repeat!

Another edit for my stupid smart phone
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