Player Features and Ideas Discussion

For simplicity, let us just say that the cloaked ship and the PvE ship should have equal risk.

If you want to increase the exposure of one, the other must have balanced and equal risk.

The PvP ship, selected often for the ease of use in a fight local to it's base, does not equal a valid substitution unless you also accept hot dropping to counter it.
This way, each side gets free reinforcement and substitutions.

Keep in mind, none of these systems are owned outright. One side simply has permission to build structures, no more than that. Both forces have valid claim to be present.

The fact the game no longer runs speaks volumes tbh, whereas Eve has grown and grown.

Chalk and cheese.

Yes this like many other ideas, is not new. That's even if you can show there to be an issue. So far you seem unable to differentiate between AFK and active play. So what is the issue here?

Your idea will affect active play more than AFK play. But then there is the fact you can AFK without a cloak and gain the same effects. You seem to have avoided that, maybe due to the fact it doesn't fit your argument.

I'm glad you've finally admitted it's active play you want to nerf here. The whole AFK line is always a smoke screen for nerfing the ability of others to roam what you deem as your system. The fact that null is already safer than high sec doesn't seem to bother you one bit. You'll press for change anyway and screw the consequences.

There are already ways to deal with a single cloaked pilot in local and the majority of Eve players do this every day. You don't feel the need to use current mechanic, but deem your needs higher than the games and balance.
The only reason you've included changes to local in this thread, is because you've realised somewhat, just how bad the initial idea was. Shadowbane players unite, we have a winner.

I dislike the idea, because it breaks more than it supposedly fixes. You've now come out and acknowledged active play is your target, but we already have counters to those. You shoot them.

But you have not been honest. Quite the oposite in fact. What this idea does, is break balance and for what? Because of hot drops and people gaining intel in what you think of as your system? Good move.

Or at least, it would if that is what normally happened.

Those structures exist regardless of local, and offer the same protection.
The catch is, you can't farm ISK and enjoy the protection they offer at the same time.
BUT! The protection is only needed in the event a hostile is present!

Make it so they need to make an effort to know this detail, and it becomes balanced for them to be able to exchange additional effort to know more as well. Enough to counter the threat.

Substitute killing an industrial with seeing a non blue name in local, and there is the current state of affairs.

Stalemate.


On both sides they are quite implicitly asking for this, because on both sides a perfect defense can be mounted.
That is balanced, if inconvenient, to gameplay.

Zero effort to get safe, plus zero effort to cloak = Balance

Oh yes, I clear forgot this nugget.

No one is denying you this. Even current mechanics do not deny you this. That's the point you seem not to understand.

Of course I can come out and try to fight the cloaky, however with current mechanics, it makes it nearly impossible to accomplish anything. There is no way to actually pose a threat to a cloaked ship in a system. I can bubble the gate and trap them in system. Once they get bored they log off. I can warp around forever and never find that player. They simply sit in a safe spot and never have to do anything. The only time I get to fight, is if they choose to engage, which is not very likely if they feel the odds aren't in their favor.

So you can sit back and watch me chase my tail and know you are perfectly safe from anything I am doing. I am suppose to be ok with this? I don think so. Again this points back to my original statement of AFK cloaky campers. There is no way to threaten them. They can just sit there. Why do they get that pleasure?

I know when I say this you are going to jump on it and twist it but here is the truth.

We all know why people cloak and camp in systems. They are trying to screw with the minds of the people in that system and shut down production. Why don't I like this. Cause its very effective. Why do I seek a change? Cause in my opinion its far too effective. There is nothing I can do to combat the threat. Absolutely nothing. A cloak can accomplish his goal with 0 effort. Just by being there he accomplishes his goal. My entire argument against cloaky campers is that it gives 0 ability to fight it.

That isn't balance at all. That is completely one sided. I am sure you wont see it that way but it is the truth and you know it. My suggestion threatens your mental warfare. Youre argument of POS's and stations and whatever really are useless. I am suggesting an idea that directly threatens you and you don't like it.

I haven't asked for a perfect defense at all. I have been open to many ideas here and have modified mine to try to offer a compromise.

That point is not relevant to the context you just described, either, so it stands unopposed thus far. You were not trying to farm in the ship being used, which was your choice to change.

Now, if one was to attempt to run the hostile out with the PvE ship, that is another matter, and one that would be a striking and bold move.


I actually posted that link already.

Remove all cloaked vessels, all docked vessels, and all vessels inside POS shields from seeing and being seen in local.
You can have all the intel you earn, but you must be visible in open space to earn seeing other ships likewise exposed.
Like for like, quid pro quo, etc.

Then it might be reasonable to consider a means to detect and hunt cloaked vessels, such balance obviously counting the cost and effort to hunt vs the cost and effort needed for cloaking.

But this is exactly the issue, that these corporations are not earning their safety and security.

They are contributing to it, most certainly, but they owe the safety of every unescorted PvE ship to local intel.
Unless it can fight off hostiles, it gets safe based on the warning of local, if nothing else presents.

Can they use other intel? Of course. Do they? quite often, but only as a means to supplement local.

What happens without local intel support? They all dock or undock based on reports from other pilots.
These can be flawed, and inaccurate, creating opportunities for hostiles to get poorly prepared targets.

This works in all directions.

Not in a way at all specific to being cloaky.

Any pilot from getting kills, in any PvP situation in null.

If the target feels unprepared, or is otherwise wanting to avoid risk, they can do so.

Cloaked ships are simply the most described for their persistence, since most other ships can be either driven off or ganged up on.

also I don't put much stock in the "but pve ships cant be pvp ships and vice versa" line. You can easily modify a typical PVE boat to have some rudimentary PVP capabilities - its not a ship you'd necessarily go looking for pvp specifically in, but you can run your PVE with it (slightly less efficiently I suppose) and if you get caught you have a bit of a chance. Why don't you do that, instead of instantly running the second local changes (and then crying when the person who entered instantly hides when you come out with the big shiny pvp specific response?)

also another reason I don't put much stock in this garbage is because I lived in wormholes for two straight years. I've been attacked while running PVE, and I've attacked others while they did PVE. Our ships and many of the ships we fought in those situations were fairly capable for PVP. Not the best PVP setups, but by no means helpless. We expected it to happen. The people we attacked (well, a fair few of the smarter ones) expected it to happen.

You don't get very far in wormholes unless you're playing smart and tough.

WH's are a different situation and you know it. I have already pointed this out. The types of rats you encounter in WHs are far more like PVP ships. You basically are fighting PVP ships, and you don't have the threat of hot drops, or things of that nature. I can understand the post and I don't disagree with the idea that you were prepared for attempted ganks, but it is a different style of combat.

And yes my PVE setup includes PVP based items. I keep ECM drones in stock as well as a web and other basic things.

I think what you are ignoring is, situations like this happen but they don't last for days on end. My original post and the core of my issues are around the cloaky camper. AFK or not. They can sit in a system for days, and it's unlikely any bait will tempt them to fight cause that is not what they are there for.

Also you keep trying to imply that I am trying to avoid PVP. I have NEVER ONCE suggested that. I am trying to increase it and with the ideas suggested I think the idea would increase it.

The alteration to local to allow for certain classes of ships to not be seen in local. I could care less if they themselves can see local.

In turn the creation of a scout ship.

Regardless of the other points or arguments, there are still gaps in every situation that has been offered against this idea yet I have tried very hard to make a solid argument for my idea OR altering it to compromise to a given suggestion.

I currently don't PVP all that much. You can check my killboards, and I am sure people have. I have checked the peoples here and some people are posting with alts and stuff of that nature. The few roams I have been on, when we came across a cloaky we would try gate camps but usually it was a worthless attempt. It's not that its hard to catch a cloaky, its impossible, as long as they stay in that system. Gates are truly the only spot they can get caught and unless they are dumb, most are going to avoid them. So what does the roam do? We move on looking for other targets.

I have flown with some people in Eve that have been around for quite some time. I trust them and they are good pilots with PVE and PVP backgrounds. Several have stated that this idea is one of the better ones offered. Some have disagreed with it, however their arguments have lead me to changing my stance on some issues. Mostly the local thing, which was something I had never considered when I first posted.

I still believe that some form of detection system needs to be in place, and I feel the best is on a ship as it would probably be the easiest to implement.

Look both you and I know that there is an issue here. You aren't happy with not getting PVP and I am unhappy that I feel unable to truly pose a threat to a cloaked ship.

Everyone says, you can do this, or that or this or whatever. What I am trying to do is cover all the bases. The current system lets certain types of game play for unopposed. I seek to resolve that issue in a fair way. I think what I have suggested in this thread is a very good start to that.