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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Deirdre Anethoel
Objectif Licorne
#841 - 2013-06-25 16:31:08 UTC
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:


I've said it on my blog, but I'll stick it here too:

Give the Caldari and the Amarr the biggest general purpose bays, and the best of the other function.

Give the Minmatar the next biggest general purpose bay.

Give the Gallente the smallest general purpose bay, to make up for having the most flexible ship range.

My asbestos suit is ready for the flames.


This. Mostly.

Caldari, biggest general cargo bay (nice symmetry wtih the Charon).
Amarr, biggest tank on the high-cargo hauler.
Minm, a bit faster than the other high-cargo haulers.
Gallente, smallest general cargo bay, but most flexible ship range.


Being flexible is useless in EVE. When you train for an industrial, you want to do something with it. Not just have a range of roles. So you'll train for the specialized one you need, not for the wide but bad category. People want efficiency.
Quote:

Smuggling expansion ftw!


I've been thinking about that for a long while, and I think it would be an amazing way to come back to a lot of things that need a rework, and could offer something to do to everyone in EVE.
Megnamon
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#842 - 2013-06-25 16:32:12 UTC
Lenna Kaundur wrote:
I'd like to see a smoother and more modular way to move from small haulers to a freighter. I've thought for a long time that using a strategic-cruiser like subsystem arrangement for indys would be neat: you can buy more storage, more tank, or more GTFO, but you can't have it all.

There are too many hauler models in the game right now, and not enough differentiation to use a lower-capacity one in favor of a high capacity one. (A Wreathe vs a Hoarder, for example.) I'm flying an indy to carry stuff around, therefore I generally want to carry as much stuff around as I can. If I have special considerations when moving my stuff -- I need lots of GTFO (blockade runner), lots of tank (deep space transport), or lots of cargo -- then I have to specialize into different ships or T2 variants.

It would be more logical for each race to have a single T1 hauler (and maybe a T2 variant) that could be altered via modules to provide significantly upgraded functionality. Rigs already do this to some extent, but I'm thinking of something more along the lines of the Strategic Cruiser modules, something that would provide dramatic performance/capacity upgrades that could be non-destructively swapped out depending on the requirement.

Alternatively, I think it would be better to introduce ORE haulers that specialize in hauling ore and minerals. Give them a substantial capacity boost over standard industrials (say 100,000 m3) but with the restriction that they can only carry ore or minerals and nothing else. The problem specific to mining is that there's a big gap between a high end industrial or Orca and a freighter. Training all the way into a freighter often isn't a good move for a miner, but at the same time even a maxed Iteron V can't carry enough cargo if you need to move a lot of ore or minerals to market. (That's one of the downsides of the recent barge changes; a Mackinaw can now carry more raw ore in its hold than a maxed industrial can.)


T3 industrials would be super sweet :) Of course that is about as likely to happen as T3 battleships, but would still be very cool....
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#843 - 2013-06-25 16:41:16 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Caldari is in THE prime position to get the biggest tank, and being so low slot unfriendly, it's not very likely to have the largest generic cargo bay.
...
Amarr, with all their lows, is probably going to come up as the largest with a modest shield tank (comparatively speaking of course).


I still hate the idea that every industrial of every race must be shield tanked (flying in the face of Amarr and Gallente ship design doctrines), and that 90% of industrial fits will be based on cargo expanders in all low slots.

Cargo expanders, like any module, are supposed to create interesting fitting choices by forcing trade-offs between the benefit of the module and the opportunity cost of the other modules you could fit instead. But in the case of industrials, that cost-benefit is skewed so far that they actually reduce the range of reasonable fitting options rather than increase them.

Banning cargo expanders on industrials (or any number of other workarounds including stacking penalties, special freight bays unaffected by expanders, etc) would make this whole rebalance so much easier. Amarr and Gallente industrials could actually be designed for armor tanks and there would be a much wider range of reasonable fitting choices in general.

I'm still holding out hope that this will be included in Rise's second pass at this. Not much hope, but a bit.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#844 - 2013-06-25 17:01:24 UTC
mynnna wrote:

You're pigeon-holing Fozzie far too much here.


Just sayin'.


How about instead of just throwing a glib meme you actually communicate with us and tell us why you hold this opinion? Why should we believe that strongly PVP-centric devs like Fozzie and Rise working on industrial ships is a good thing?

(No offense meant to either Fozzie or Rise, by the way. I'd like to get a reasonable and more detailed response from a CSM rep rather than the usual smart-ass one-liner as some are want to do. The CSM interacts with the devs in ways we regular players never do. How about sharing a bit of insight as to how these guys think and what their goals are--so far as you are able without divulging sensitive info?)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#845 - 2013-06-25 17:11:38 UTC
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
I come across questions from newbies that we take on, if there are any ships between those t1 industrials.. and freighters.

Often people look for ways to transport "medium sized" heaps of goods (compared to a freighter volume), that may also be faster than a freighter. I heard this is many channels by now, the question if there is somthing "bigger than a t1, but smaller than a freighter"


So i think there is some sort of demand for ships that can take on 100k - 200k m³


Even though i think that those t1 ships are for sure too "small" to take on such a load. So no clue if it would be possible to "resize" any of them to look bigger and take on such a role? Even though i bet it would look awkward. May really be better for some future plans if new ships are introduced.

Just throwing it out there for some additional ideas or thoughts.


DSTs are the natural choice for this role.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#846 - 2013-06-25 17:16:05 UTC
Taleden wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Caldari is in THE prime position to get the biggest tank, and being so low slot unfriendly, it's not very likely to have the largest generic cargo bay.
...
Amarr, with all their lows, is probably going to come up as the largest with a modest shield tank (comparatively speaking of course).


I still hate the idea that every industrial of every race must be shield tanked (flying in the face of Amarr and Gallente ship design doctrines), and that 90% of industrial fits will be based on cargo expanders in all low slots.

Cargo expanders, like any module, are supposed to create interesting fitting choices by forcing trade-offs between the benefit of the module and the opportunity cost of the other modules you could fit instead. But in the case of industrials, that cost-benefit is skewed so far that they actually reduce the range of reasonable fitting options rather than increase them.

Banning cargo expanders on industrials (or any number of other workarounds including stacking penalties, special freight bays unaffected by expanders, etc) would make this whole rebalance so much easier. Amarr and Gallente industrials could actually be designed for armor tanks and there would be a much wider range of reasonable fitting choices in general.

I'm still holding out hope that this will be included in Rise's second pass at this. Not much hope, but a bit.
You don't *have* to shield tank your industrial, but it makes the most sense, considering that cargo expanders go in the lows. Given this, it makes the most sense that Caldari would be in the best place to acheive cargo (via the low slot cargo expanders) and tank (with the mid slot shield mods).

Banning cargo expanders for some alternative generic freight bay is perhaps the least likely thing to happen in the rebalance. You'd completely strip the fitting choices, trading cargo expanders for nanos or a DCU perhaps, and the ships would *still* be shield tanked.

Besides, there are options for a armor tanked Industrials, but they're not popular because 1) of the obvious lack of cargo room, and 2) armor makes your ship slower to do anything. So, even if traditional cargo bay + expanders were removed, it's not likely even Amarr pilots would chose armor tanks, since the performance impact would be so great. People would just train Caldari (for tank), Minmatar (for speed) or Gallente (if they still have a 5 mid Itty).

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TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#847 - 2013-06-25 17:17:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
I come across questions from newbies that we take on, if there are any ships between those t1 industrials.. and freighters.

Often people look for ways to transport "medium sized" heaps of goods (compared to a freighter volume), that may also be faster than a freighter. I heard this is many channels by now, the question if there is somthing "bigger than a t1, but smaller than a freighter"


So i think there is some sort of demand for ships that can take on 100k - 200k m³


Even though i think that those t1 ships are for sure too "small" to take on such a load. So no clue if it would be possible to "resize" any of them to look bigger and take on such a role? Even though i bet it would look awkward. May really be better for some future plans if new ships are introduced.

Just throwing it out there for some additional ideas or thoughts.


DSTs are the natural choice for this role.


What does that short mean?

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Deirdre Anethoel
Objectif Licorne
#848 - 2013-06-25 17:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Deirdre Anethoel
Malcanis wrote:
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
I come across questions from newbies that we take on, if there are any ships between those t1 industrials.. and freighters.

Often people look for ways to transport "medium sized" heaps of goods (compared to a freighter volume), that may also be faster than a freighter. I heard this is many channels by now, the question if there is somthing "bigger than a t1, but smaller than a freighter"


So i think there is some sort of demand for ships that can take on 100k - 200k m³


Even though i think that those t1 ships are for sure too "small" to take on such a load. So no clue if it would be possible to "resize" any of them to look bigger and take on such a role? Even though i bet it would look awkward. May really be better for some future plans if new ships are introduced.

Just throwing it out there for some additional ideas or thoughts.


DSTs are the natural choice for this role.


DST are really far away from the 100-200k m³ range. They're closer to 35k, I think. (if we can trust the eve wiki).
By the way, for the others, DST are deep space transport (T2 indus).

And they are as hard to train as an orca, with the new orca prerequisites (racial industrial V is very long to train). :<
Coriele Calec
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#849 - 2013-06-25 17:27:08 UTC
Taleden wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Caldari is in THE prime position to get the biggest tank, and being so low slot unfriendly, it's not very likely to have the largest generic cargo bay.
...
Amarr, with all their lows, is probably going to come up as the largest with a modest shield tank (comparatively speaking of course).


I still hate the idea that every industrial of every race must be shield tanked (flying in the face of Amarr and Gallente ship design doctrines), and that 90% of industrial fits will be based on cargo expanders in all low slots.

Cargo expanders, like any module, are supposed to create interesting fitting choices by forcing trade-offs between the benefit of the module and the opportunity cost of the other modules you could fit instead. But in the case of industrials, that cost-benefit is skewed so far that they actually reduce the range of reasonable fitting options rather than increase them.

Banning cargo expanders on industrials (or any number of other workarounds including stacking penalties, special freight bays unaffected by expanders, etc) would make this whole rebalance so much easier. Amarr and Gallente industrials could actually be designed for armor tanks and there would be a much wider range of reasonable fitting choices in general.

I'm still holding out hope that this will be included in Rise's second pass at this. Not much hope, but a bit.
Oddly, I'd argue the same problem, but from the opposite angle: A large numer of low slots gives too much flexibility for a hauler.

If you want an increased tank, you can use lows "intended" for cargo carrying to beef your tank up. If you want extra cargo, you can thin your armor-tank to increase your hold. This wider array of fitting choices is the problem for armor tanking industrials, not a reduced set of choices.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#850 - 2013-06-25 17:31:54 UTC
Deirdre Anethoel wrote:

Being flexible is useless in EVE. When you train for an industrial, you want to do something with it. Not just have a range of roles. So you'll train for the specialized one you need, not for the wide but bad category. People want efficiency.



You misunderstand.

The Gallente will have the widest range of /specialist/ ships.

Their most general ship won't be the best general one.

say, 30k general hold.

But they'll have specialist ships which have special purpose bays larger than the largest general purpose bay. Say, a 50+ k ore hold.


That is what I meant. (And it's covered in more detail in my blog, which I've already linked a couple of times.)

So, which ship would you train for? The large general purpose one (capping out at around 40k) Or the ability to have bigger specialist bays, but needing more ships in your hangar.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Deornoth Drake
Vandeo
#851 - 2013-06-25 17:32:12 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey wanted to give you guys an update

Won't be able to get these posted today. There's a few details we're still ironing out and I spent most of the day designing ENTIRE FEATURES which was really exciting. So hopefully tomorrow!

Once more ... looking forward for details
Deirdre Anethoel
Objectif Licorne
#852 - 2013-06-25 17:37:03 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Deirdre Anethoel wrote:

Being flexible is useless in EVE. When you train for an industrial, you want to do something with it. Not just have a range of roles. So you'll train for the specialized one you need, not for the wide but bad category. People want efficiency.



You misunderstand.

The Gallente will have the widest range of /specialist/ ships.

Their most general ship won't be the best general one.

say, 30k general hold.

But they'll have specialist ships which have special purpose bays larger than the largest general purpose bay. Say, a 50+ k ore hold.


That is what I meant. (And it's covered in more detail in my blog, which I've already linked a couple of times.)

So, which ship would you train for? The large general purpose one (capping out at around 40k) Or the ability to have bigger specialist bays, but needing more ships in your hangar.


Sounds better like that.

I still believe ORE should be the ones to deliver industrials with specific purposes. There is no reason for the gallente to have a dedicated ore bay for example. That's a feature of ORE ships.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#853 - 2013-06-25 17:44:01 UTC
Rise, can we get the updates in a separate thread rather than editing the OP here?

Keeping track in what is already a 43-page thread is kind of a pain.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#854 - 2013-06-25 17:56:44 UTC
Deirdre Anethoel wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
I come across questions from newbies that we take on, if there are any ships between those t1 industrials.. and freighters.

Often people look for ways to transport "medium sized" heaps of goods (compared to a freighter volume), that may also be faster than a freighter. I heard this is many channels by now, the question if there is somthing "bigger than a t1, but smaller than a freighter"


So i think there is some sort of demand for ships that can take on 100k - 200k m³


Even though i think that those t1 ships are for sure too "small" to take on such a load. So no clue if it would be possible to "resize" any of them to look bigger and take on such a role? Even though i bet it would look awkward. May really be better for some future plans if new ships are introduced.

Just throwing it out there for some additional ideas or thoughts.


DSTs are the natural choice for this role.


DST are really far away from the 100-200k m³ range. They're closer to 35k, I think. (if we can trust the eve wiki).
By the way, for the others, DST are deep space transport (T2 indus).

And they are as hard to train as an orca, with the new orca prerequisites (racial industrial V is very long to train). :<


They're 35k now, that doesn't mean we can't argue for change. In fact the fact that they don't haul any more than the best t1 is a pretty strong change.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#855 - 2013-06-25 17:58:26 UTC
Idea #3:

Ship NanoRepair Hold- Can instantly repair ships not in combat with stocked nanite repair paste.
Flux Astraeus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#856 - 2013-06-25 17:58:38 UTC
Mammoth is cool, best looking T1 hauler, it actually looks like kind of truck in space.Don't art it out please.

The gap between T1 hauler and Jump Frieghter is far to great in cost and cargo capabilty.The holes need filled.
There is no middle ground you need mini jump frieghters for high sec.Mini Carriers for carting ships around high sec, and helping out the Deep Space Transport with a bigger cargo hold with a covops cloak so it could actually roam deep space.
The Isk costs verse what you can haul are way out of balance. So everyone gets an Orca, which is a mixed bag of a ship if ever there was one.
Also if you set off on a cosmic journey with all your goodies packaged nicely in transit to your new home , wouldn't you protect your assets?
Why not give them all guns and drone bays so they can at least protect themselves they are carrying millions in assets, its just a silver platter gank machine. Han Solo had guns on his Millennium Falcon didnt he, good ones too! , and rightly so he wanted to protect his cargo from pirates so too should the haulers, Frieghters and Deep Space Transports.

A small 1 kiloton ship shouldn't be able to point and hold a massive 800million ton behemoth it should be able to burn that pesky pirate with one drone look at the size of it?

What about a large cargo jettison that you can shoot away if your ganked that will warp off to a celestial, orbit it and have a pinger that you can come back and lock onto and recover later.With a safety timer that if not recovered in x time the pinger goes live and anyone can grab it?

Make it right its well overdue.
Deirdre Anethoel
Objectif Licorne
#857 - 2013-06-25 18:00:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
They're 35k now, that doesn't mean we can't argue for change. In fact the fact that they don't haul any more than the best t1 is a pretty strong change.


Now, I completely agree with you. They'll need a real big change to become competitive compared to orcas, though. The only prerequisite difference is price right now. Transport skill also allow you to fly in cloaky indus, though.
Wenzhou Satsuma
#858 - 2013-06-25 18:21:02 UTC
The proposed changes are unimaginative and a missed opportunity to bring some true diversity to a long neglected set of ships. There need to be reasons to choose one race's hauler over another's beyond agility, tank, cargo and aesthetics.

Give these ships some identity. They don't need to serve the exact same role between races.
Drake Aihaken
CODE.d
#859 - 2013-06-25 18:40:05 UTC
Megnamon wrote:
T3 industrials would be super sweet :) Of course that is about as likely to happen as T3 battleships, but would still be very cool....


Sounds like a great idea for a Winter expansion: T3 industrials and T3 flagships.
Hashi Lebwohl
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#860 - 2013-06-25 18:58:27 UTC
A suggestion would be to reconsider who designed the Iteron - what if it was a very old design much used by all the races at one time (like ORE is today). It could be that the Gallente have an affinity for the design so have retained it but for other races it is on its way out.

In Minmatar the design has all but disappeared as members of that race either use their own designs or more modern versions of the Iteron supplied by the Gallente.

In Amarr and Caldari old workhorse Iterons still exist. Much like defunct tanks of WWII these ships have had their primary purpose removed/reduced and have bridging equipment, flame throwers, mine detonation flails fitted instead.

In this way you only need to say re-texture the Iteron II and III in Amarr and Caldari colours and all four races can have a special industrial.

Only downside would be that potentially under "if you flew before you can now" you might need to give those with lvl1 in Gallente Industrial level 1 in Amarr and Caldari.