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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#821 - 2013-06-25 14:14:40 UTC
CCP Rise, please swap "UNDER RENOVATION" in OP with "SOON™".

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#822 - 2013-06-25 14:30:43 UTC
Hey wanted to give you guys an update

Won't be able to get these posted today. There's a few details we're still ironing out and I spent most of the day designing ENTIRE FEATURES which was really exciting. So hopefully tomorrow!

@ccp_rise

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#823 - 2013-06-25 14:32:23 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey wanted to give you guys an update

Won't be able to get these posted today. There's a few details we're still ironing out and I spent most of the day designing ENTIRE FEATURES which was really exciting. So hopefully tomorrow!
Awesome! Thanks for the update!! I know you're hard at work on them. Kudos to you and your team!

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MrZany
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#824 - 2013-06-25 14:35:21 UTC
Erien Rand wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Thank you for listening to the feedback, Rise. Much appreciated.
CCP Rise wrote:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.

  • This is as much an issue as people having to train Caldari ship skills if they want to fly a powerful ECM or missile boat.


    People keep saying this but it is simply not true. It would be if there was a counterpart for the other races. If you don't want to train missiles, its okay because you can train lasers. In this case, there is no option for Caldari or Amarr to counter balance, even if it was a different bay.



    CCP Rise,

    why not just make the remaining haulers Ore ships?

    Ore could purchase the rights to the ships and modify them as they see fit. That would remove any accusations of "inequality" among the races.

    IIRC when the real world financial crisis happened China purchased the Hummer brand. Something similar could be put into the lore where due to constant wars the empires were forced to sell off some of their excess ship models.

    Doing this would allow you to get as creative as you like with the ships and also would give a reason why the ships were so drastically remodeled; they are owned by an entirely different corp that wants to take them in a different direction.


    I like this. It would allow the developers to engage their imaginations and that of the player-base without opening themselves up to the inevitable "race favoritism" criticisms.

    For those that would be upset about losing gall and min hulls to Ore, well, it's just economics...

    Seems like a winning idea.

    +1
    TAckermassacker
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #825 - 2013-06-25 14:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: TAckermassacker
    can fit "micro jump drive" to Badger I and the other low-meta Haulers would fill the niche of passing carebaer bubbled gates faster....

    and the hictors could use a MJD 2... not trolling.

    while doing this please add the 2nd highslot to the sisters of the prowler... its time for my covert cynobait occator...
    Kharamete
    Royal Assent
    #826 - 2013-06-25 14:55:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kharamete
    LIYNX wrote:

    I also agree that this would be the most reasonable thing to do. It nicely removes the racial inequality and provides some depth to the range of haulers. you could adjust and rename the ORE frigate skill to apply to the new ORE haulers as well as the venture, which would give more meaning to actually training that skill.


    You already have the "Ore Industrial" skill in-game. It's a requirement to fly the Orca. That's its only use at the moment, apart from flying the Primae, but the Primae sucks anyway. So, there would be no need to introduce a new 'Interbus Industrial' skillbook for instance as was suggested upthread. :)

    CCP FoxFour: "... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB."

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    Deirdre Anethoel
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #827 - 2013-06-25 15:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Deirdre Anethoel
    Sounds like he read people with similar ideas to mine \o/

    Happy, it sounds way better than the previous changes.

    Still, I hoped for a big cleanup and a transfer of some industrials to ORE. Some industrials will still be too similar between races, and should be 2 instead of 8. This would alleviate the concern of racial imbalance too. Of course, it needs some art job. Could give a specific role to each race and the generic cargo and tanking roles to ore. Or maybe give the specific role to ORE since they're really close to what bigger ore ships offer (ore bay, ship hangar, corp hangar, that kind of things) ? And differenciate more the racial industrials by giving them different ways to tank (armor quantity or resist bonus / shield quantity or resist bonus). Potentially having gallente and minmatar being faster, but amarr and caldari tankier, even in the tanky/agility category to add more differences?

    Malcanis wrote:
    Steve Ronuken wrote:
    Can we drop a lowslot from all of them and give them a hardwired damage control II?


    It's a core principle of EVE that people should be allowed to make bad choices.


    It's not a problem of choices. It's a problem of "modules goes offline when you pass gates and you have to turn them online again". And if you have to, you're active. If you're active, you're already protected against most suicide gankers. A damage control is mostly useless. If you are afk you can't use it, and if you are active you don't need it.
    Maximus Andendare
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #828 - 2013-06-25 15:11:35 UTC
    Deirdre Anethoel wrote:
    Malcanis wrote:
    Steve Ronuken wrote:
    Can we drop a lowslot from all of them and give them a hardwired damage control II?


    It's a core principle of EVE that people should be allowed to make bad choices.


    It's not a problem of choices. It's a problem of "modules goes offline when you pass gates and you have to turn them online again". And if you have to, you're active. If you're active, you're already protected against most suicide gankers. A damage control is mostly useless. If you are afk you can't use it, and if you are active you don't need it.
    I believe that's the point Malcanis was making. If you want safety, then you are at the keyboard. If you are atk, then you can activate your DCU. If you want to not be safe--the "bad choice"--then you fly afk and don't worry about the DCU.

    It's extremely unlikely that they'd ever incorporate a DCU into some hauling ship so you can effortlessly autopilot with an increased degree of safety. If you want to get your stuff there, and have assurance that you'll make it, then you don't autopilot.

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    Maximus Andendare
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #829 - 2013-06-25 15:12:46 UTC
    Kharamete wrote:
    LIYNX wrote:

    I also agree that this would be the most reasonable thing to do. It nicely removes the racial inequality and provides some depth to the range of haulers. you could adjust and rename the ORE frigate skill to apply to the new ORE haulers as well as the venture, which would give more meaning to actually training that skill.


    You already have the "Ore Industrial" skill in-game. It's a requirement to fly the Orca. That's its only use at the moment, apart from flying the Primae, but the Primae sucks anyway. So, there would be no need to introduce a new 'Interbus Industrial' skillbook for instance as was suggested upthread. :)
    Have you heard of the Noctis? I hear it has something to do with the ORE Industrial skill.....but I'm not sure......

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    Kesi Raae
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #830 - 2013-06-25 15:16:59 UTC
    Dunno if it has been mentioned already, but you've also got the T1 version of the Bustard (Badger Mk III?) lying around being unused, hopefully you can introduce that along with these changes.
    Deirdre Anethoel
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #831 - 2013-06-25 15:17:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Deirdre Anethoel
    Maximus Andendare wrote:
    Deirdre Anethoel wrote:
    Malcanis wrote:
    Steve Ronuken wrote:
    Can we drop a lowslot from all of them and give them a hardwired damage control II?


    It's a core principle of EVE that people should be allowed to make bad choices.


    It's not a problem of choices. It's a problem of "modules goes offline when you pass gates and you have to turn them online again". And if you have to, you're active. If you're active, you're already protected against most suicide gankers. A damage control is mostly useless. If you are afk you can't use it, and if you are active you don't need it.
    I believe that's the point Malcanis was making. If you want safety, then you are at the keyboard. If you are atk, then you can activate your DCU. If you want to not be safe--the "bad choice"--then you fly afk and don't worry about the DCU.

    It's extremely unlikely that they'd ever incorporate a DCU into some hauling ship so you can effortlessly autopilot with an increased degree of safety. If you want to get your stuff there, and have assurance that you'll make it, then you don't autopilot.


    I agree it's unlikely. I wasn't saying that afk hauling should be buffed. My point was that it's useless to have tank if you're active, and tank modules aren't usable when afk, and so are mostly useless in both cases. If I'm active, I want agility more than tank, and if I'm inactive, I want passive tanking.

    I also believe you should always be able to do the calculus about "how much am I worth and how much is needed to suicide gank me" as a way to afk haul. Autopilot is there for a reason, and it should not be only a trap button.

    Quote:

    I like this. It would allow the developers to engage their imaginations and that of the player-base without opening themselves up to the inevitable "race favoritism" criticisms.

    For those that would be upset about losing gall and min hulls to Ore, well, it's just economics...

    Seems like a winning idea.

    +1


    Agreed. Industrial ships with special roles should be ORE. Especially since those roles are associated to ORE flavor wise (ore bay, corp hangar, etc). This would make expanding the brand easier too (there is a ton of roles you could fill with new ORE industrials! For example, I'd like to have a mobile refinery :D).

    You could keep basic roles to factions (cargo and tank/agility ones), with a few racial quirks (armor tanking for amarr/gallente, shield for minmatar/caldari, more speed on gallente/minmatar, more tank on amarr/caldari, that kind of things).
    LIYNX
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #832 - 2013-06-25 15:23:55 UTC
    Kharamete wrote:
    LIYNX wrote:

    I also agree that this would be the most reasonable thing to do. It nicely removes the racial inequality and provides some depth to the range of haulers. you could adjust and rename the ORE frigate skill to apply to the new ORE haulers as well as the venture, which would give more meaning to actually training that skill.


    You already have the "Ore Industrial" skill in-game. It's a requirement to fly the Orca. That's its only use at the moment, apart from flying the Primae, but the Primae sucks anyway. So, there would be no need to introduce a new 'Interbus Industrial' skillbook for instance as was suggested upthread. :)


    I believe I only said rename it, not call it Ore Industrial or anything specific like that.

    I picked the ore frigate skill as its a day one skill, like (I think, its been a while since Ive looked at it) the racial hauler skills and could be trained in to easily and quickly, while providing new players with a few more options off the bat.

    Seems reasonable to me.
    Schmata Bastanold
    In Boobiez We Trust
    #833 - 2013-06-25 15:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
    Indy ships balancing aside I wonder if those "industry changes down the pipe" will be concentrated on fixing currently existing problems/derps or maybe they will also be along the lines "ossum, that makes me want to get into industry!".

    Invalid signature format

    Deirdre Anethoel
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #834 - 2013-06-25 15:36:19 UTC
    Schmata Bastanold wrote:
    Indy ships balancing aside I wonder if those "industry changes down the pipe" will be concentrated on fixing currently existing problems/derps or maybe they will only be along the lines "ossum, that makes me want to get into industry!".


    That. There is ways to make industry a lot more attractive with changes to industrial ships (they could be industrials, instead of hauling maybe?), but to do so, I believe you'll need to do more than put different stats on existing ships.

    We need some new ore industrials. Accessible and appealing ones. What about a factory line ship and a reffinery one? Support to the "no station, no pos" life!
    There is tons of things to do with industrials, but you need to dive deep in it, not scratch the surface by playing only on the existing ones. It's more than just a balance issue.
    Karsa Egivand
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #835 - 2013-06-25 16:03:44 UTC
    Steve Ronuken wrote:


    I've said it on my blog, but I'll stick it here too:

    Give the Caldari and the Amarr the biggest general purpose bays, and the best of the other function.

    Give the Minmatar the next biggest general purpose bay.

    Give the Gallente the smallest general purpose bay, to make up for having the most flexible ship range.

    My asbestos suit is ready for the flames.


    This. Mostly.

    Caldari, biggest general cargo bay (nice symmetry wtih the Charon).
    Amarr, biggest tank on the high-cargo hauler.
    Minm, a bit faster than the other high-cargo haulers.
    Gallente, smallest general cargo bay, but most flexible ship range.
    Berluth Luthian
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #836 - 2013-06-25 16:08:16 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hey wanted to give you guys an update

    Won't be able to get these posted today. There's a few details we're still ironing out and I spent most of the day designing ENTIRE FEATURES which was really exciting. So hopefully tomorrow!


    Smuggling expansion ftw!
    Lenna Kaundur
    Doomheim
    #837 - 2013-06-25 16:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenna Kaundur
    I'd like to see a smoother and more modular way to move from small haulers to a freighter. I've thought for a long time that using a strategic-cruiser like subsystem arrangement for indys would be neat: you can buy more storage, more tank, or more GTFO, but you can't have it all.

    There are too many hauler models in the game right now, and not enough differentiation to use a lower-capacity one in favor of a high capacity one. (A Wreathe vs a Hoarder, for example.) I'm flying an indy to carry stuff around, therefore I generally want to carry as much stuff around as I can. If I have special considerations when moving my stuff -- I need lots of GTFO (blockade runner), lots of tank (deep space transport), or lots of cargo -- then I have to specialize into different ships or T2 variants.

    It would be more logical for each race to have a single T1 hauler (and maybe a T2 variant) that could be altered via modules to provide significantly upgraded functionality. Rigs already do this to some extent, but I'm thinking of something more along the lines of the Strategic Cruiser modules, something that would provide dramatic performance/capacity upgrades that could be non-destructively swapped out depending on the requirement.

    Alternatively, I think it would be better to introduce ORE haulers that specialize in hauling ore and minerals. Give them a substantial capacity boost over standard industrials (say 100,000 m3) but with the restriction that they can only carry ore or minerals and nothing else. The problem specific to mining is that there's a big gap between a high end industrial or Orca and a freighter. Training all the way into a freighter often isn't a good move for a miner, but at the same time even a maxed Iteron V can't carry enough cargo if you need to move a lot of ore or minerals to market. (That's one of the downsides of the recent barge changes; a Mackinaw can now carry more raw ore in its hold than a maxed industrial can.)
    Rishak Orlenard
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #838 - 2013-06-25 16:13:27 UTC
    I put my vote in for a ship maintenance bay or just a fitting service. Such a ship would quickly become the darling of every nullsec or wormhole fleet. For that matter any fleet that goes deep into enemy territory where there is no place to dock up and change mods to counter different situations or even repair mods (with the AAR, nanite paste has become too valuable to waste.), with it you could retreat to an empty system to regroup, repair, and adapt your fits to deal with the enemy. You could even require a logi skill to activate this.
    Callic Veratar
    #839 - 2013-06-25 16:23:24 UTC
    I'm still hoping for a fixed large "Freight Bay" that will not work with Cargo Expanders and Cargo Rigs on these ships, even at the cost of a large number of slots and fitting space.

    It bypasses the older design (and really the live ships) where the 'best fit' is shield and cargo extenders.
    Maximus Andendare
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #840 - 2013-06-25 16:24:51 UTC
    Karsa Egivand wrote:

    This. Mostly.

    Caldari, biggest general cargo bay (nice symmetry wtih the Charon).
    Amarr, biggest tank on the high-cargo hauler.
    Minm, a bit faster than the other high-cargo haulers.
    Gallente, smallest general cargo bay, but most flexible ship range.
    This is likely what CCP is thinking, but you have Caldari and Amarr reversed. Caldari is in THE prime position to get the biggest tank, and being so low slot unfriendly, it's not very likely to have the largest generic cargo bay. Besides, the fact that the Charon holds the most is a nice tradeoff for the Caldari T1 line not being the most capacious.

    Amarr, with all their lows, is probably going to come up as the largest with a modest shield tank (comparatively speaking of course).

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