These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

First post First post
Author
Eladaris
Indefinite.
#801 - 2013-06-25 01:21:23 UTC
Lucius Saturninus wrote:
I'm just throwing it out there for a few more industrial options.

Pirate faction? Navy faction? Ore?


Swap Interbus with ORE and you're on the right tanget, but they all take art assets and probably won't be in the cards this expansion.
Tritanium Avenger
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#802 - 2013-06-25 01:25:48 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
*Stuff*

Please, swap the iteron ship models so they match their proper order in size/cargo.
Currend Iteron MkIV model as the new Iteron MkI, MkI to MkII, MkII to MkIII and MkIII to MKIV
All capsuleers affected by OCD would be very grateful for that.
PleaseSad
Lunaleil Fournier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#803 - 2013-06-25 01:33:22 UTC
Awesome. Really impressed with your willingness to implement changes based off player feedback Rise (both for these changes and to the battleship lines). That versatility is resulting in some great improvements to this game.
Eladaris
Indefinite.
#804 - 2013-06-25 01:48:04 UTC
Eladaris wrote:
Also, a paper-thin hull with a ship-bay for the nooblets who complete the starter school training programs who don't want to make five trips to carry their massive haul of T1 ships to a new system would be grand. I sort of remember needing to do that when I started, and it was a serious buzz-kill. Make it big enough to carry a cruiser or even a BS, but something a Reaper could pop sounds fine to me. Oh, you want to drag a BS to market? Sure, but it'll get popped by a passing Rifter sounds like a viable risk / reward balance.


To iterate on that, I was thinking of a ship that could carry a fitted destroyer and half a dozen (however many T1 Frig's the starter missions reward) fitted frigates, but in enough safety that that starter player doesn't pee himself moving those ships. Make it gankable by a single Tornado, so folks don't move their billion+ ISK faction BS's around, but with a bit more flexibility than "Oh, you're a new player with a handful of ships? Better get training on an Orca".
Cage Man
Comms Black
Pandemic Horde
#805 - 2013-06-25 02:47:33 UTC
Eladaris wrote:
Eladaris wrote:
Also, a paper-thin hull with a ship-bay for the nooblets who complete the starter school training programs who don't want to make five trips to carry their massive haul of T1 ships to a new system would be grand. I sort of remember needing to do that when I started, and it was a serious buzz-kill. Make it big enough to carry a cruiser or even a BS, but something a Reaper could pop sounds fine to me. Oh, you want to drag a BS to market? Sure, but it'll get popped by a passing Rifter sounds like a viable risk / reward balance.


To iterate on that, I was thinking of a ship that could carry a fitted destroyer and half a dozen (however many T1 Frig's the starter missions reward) fitted frigates, but in enough safety that that starter player doesn't pee himself moving those ships. Make it gankable by a single Tornado, so folks don't move their billion+ ISK faction BS's around, but with a bit more flexibility than "Oh, you're a new player with a handful of ships? Better get training on an Orca".


Why train for a mining support ship ie Orca, when you want to move a few ships??? Rather give us a ship that serves this purpose, a mini HS carrier or something like that that has a ship bay. Its crazy that I can move ships around easier in LS and NS than I can HS. A ship that can haul my BS and salvage ship will suit me perfectly.
Erien Rand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#806 - 2013-06-25 02:49:31 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Thank you for listening to the feedback, Rise. Much appreciated.
CCP Rise wrote:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.

  • This is as much an issue as people having to train Caldari ship skills if they want to fly a powerful ECM or missile boat.


    People keep saying this but it is simply not true. It would be if there was a counterpart for the other races. If you don't want to train missiles, its okay because you can train lasers. In this case, there is no option for Caldari or Amarr to counter balance, even if it was a different bay.



    CCP Rise,

    why not just make the remaining haulers Ore ships?

    Ore could purchase the rights to the ships and modify them as they see fit. That would remove any accusations of "inequality" among the races.

    IIRC when the real world financial crisis happened China purchased the Hummer brand. Something similar could be put into the lore where due to constant wars the empires were forced to sell off some of their excess ship models.

    Doing this would allow you to get as creative as you like with the ships and also would give a reason why the ships were so drastically remodeled; they are owned by an entirely different corp that wants to take them in a different direction.
    Warde Guildencrantz
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #807 - 2013-06-25 04:21:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
    Lucius Saturninus wrote:
    I'm just throwing it out there for a few more industrial options.

    Pirate faction? Navy faction? Ore?

    Better yet, new decoy t2 ships. Look and are tagged like their t1 counterparts until aggresed.
    Web bonused wreathe
    Point range bonused iteron
    ECM battle badger
    Neuting tding sigil

    Up to 75k ehp tank, combat ship agility, small cargo bay, covert cynos can be fit...

    CCP plz

    They could be detected by ship scanning them.

    TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

    Krazazx
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #808 - 2013-06-25 04:41:43 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Jowen Datloran wrote:
    Thank you for listening to the feedback, Rise. Much appreciated.
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.

  • This is as much an issue as people having to train Caldari ship skills if they want to fly a powerful ECM or missile boat.


    People keep saying this but it is simply not true. It would be if there was a counterpart for the other races. If you don't want to train missiles, its okay because you can train lasers. In this case, there is no option for Caldari or Amarr to counter balance, even if it was a different bay.



    almost every pvp pilot trains sooner or later all racial cruisers to lv 5 and all 4 racial frigates to lv 5 as well as battlecruisers and battleships.

    why cant the caldari for example have the badger2 with way stronger tank options then all other races (iam not talking about 3000ehp more then the others, i mean a real difference)
    and for example the gallente with their 5 haulers have lots of specialist haulers but as trade of have lesser cargo and tank on the large cargo hauler and lesser speed/agility on the speed hauler.
    and lets give amarr the large m3 hauler with the largest possible m3 numbers
    and make the minmatar speed hauler the one with the highest agility and highest cargo option(for a quick hauler)


    the goal should be that people want to cross train industrials. not because their own race industrialsare ****, but because the other races offer so cool options to solve problems.
    Ponder Stuff
    Hostile.
    PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
    #809 - 2013-06-25 08:14:47 UTC
    A pirate faction hauler with a drug smuggling hold sounds cool.

    Please dont give haulers an ecm bonus, ecm is op and broken enough as it is. Giving haulers things like this would only remove the need for people to work as a team to get them into low sec with their precious things. Cloaky haulers and jump freighters are untouchable in low sec for the most part anyway.

    I hope to see changes relating to speed, warp speed, hitpoints, align times and am loving some of the modular ideas that are floating around involving the containers.
    Kraschyn Thek'athor
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #810 - 2013-06-25 08:22:37 UTC
    I guess, some kind of "PoS Builder" Industrial would also be appreciated.
    An Hauler, capable of carrying the whole PoS Stuff in one haul.
    Even as an new T1 + T2 line (T2 line could have an Jump Drive)
    Currently, Rorquals do this job. Which speaks for the creativity of the community.
    But is a bit overdressed.

    Make some "Tanker", specialised PoS Fueling, for those poor souls filling that stuff.
    Fast, agile ships.


    A ship hauler would find it use, and would be an juicy target.

    Make some "defensible" ships. Something like the Procurer Mining Barge, only with guns.


    And don't give every option to every race.
    PvP guys skill all those racial frig, cruiser, bc skills to do different duties.
    The Industrial player should also get their share of flying different races. ^^

    Lina Thamaris
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #811 - 2013-06-25 08:41:31 UTC
    I think that the more diverse the haulers are, the better. Right now for each skillset there's an optimal T1 industrial, which isn't what EVE should be about. The more choice we have in terms of size, speed, survivability, and special abilities, the better. Smile
    Warde Guildencrantz
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #812 - 2013-06-25 09:22:47 UTC
    Ponder Stuff wrote:
    A pirate faction hauler with a drug smuggling hold sounds cool.

    Please dont give haulers an ecm bonus, ecm is op and broken enough as it is. Giving haulers things like this would only remove the need for people to work as a team to get them into low sec with their precious things. Cloaky haulers and jump freighters are untouchable in low sec for the most part anyway.

    I hope to see changes relating to speed, warp speed, hitpoints, align times and am loving some of the modular ideas that are floating around involving the containers.

    you think an ecm bonus would save a hauler from being blapped, you would be quite mistaken. Also, if you were drawing that from my post regarding bait haulers, they wouldnt have any considerable hold to speak of, there point would be just to trick an enemy into combat instead of a quick indy gank.

    TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

    Kharamete
    Royal Assent
    #813 - 2013-06-25 11:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kharamete
    Rhavas wrote:

    This. Spin a story about the Gallente and Minmatar selling the hull production rights to ORE because it's too expensive / not worth it for them to keep up with manufacturing so many variations and so sold the rights to ORE. *Poof* all fair, and no art changes need to be made, just change the description text to "sold in YC 11X to ORE, who modified the design to be a specialist in whatever".


    +1 this.

    Unlike the other minor factions, you at CCP already have a fairly heavy reliance on ORE for the industrial ships; what with the Orca and the Rorqual, and all the mining barges, exhumers and the venture. It fits well into a pattern that CCP already employs for these kinds of things.

    So, in the current narrative of 'empires losing control', ORE bought the rights from the current manufacturers to manufacture the 'left over' haulers because of reasons, and then specialised the designs. Maybe, since everyone used the Mk V Iteron, the other haulsers were just lossmakers. We all know what corporations think of losses. Lol That would remove the inquity because the design changes would require Ore Industrial skill rather than racial hauler skills.

    You could give the Hoarder a sig radius and align bonus. Iteron Mk II a warp core stab bonus. Iteron Mk III an ore hold. And Iteron Mk IV a speed bonus for fitting a cloak, like the Black Ops has.

    CCP FoxFour: "... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB."

    My little youtube videos can be found here

    Draco Fader
    Midnight Elites
    #814 - 2013-06-25 11:11:23 UTC
    The best we can get is an Itty 5 with about 38k space, not counting the container trick to get 45k out of it.

    That's a huge gap between a transport and a freighter which gets you upwards of 800k.

    The only thing that fills that gap is the Orca. It's really great for station moves. It also comes with a high price and lots of training just to fly it.

    I'd like to see a new line of transports that let us haul anywhere from 100-500k. That would make us forget about the Iterons pretty quickly. Specialization could happen here as well.

    I like the idea of a specialized fuel hauler or tanker for POS fueling. Make it cloaky without penalty for using limited cloaking device.

    Buff the Primae for more cargo space and also make it cloaky like above, ideal for lowsec PI. Allow it to bypass the CO for transfers.
    Kastar Alland
    Dustdogs
    #815 - 2013-06-25 11:33:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kastar Alland
    One thing I keep seeing is people talking about "Tanky" in different ways. In high sec, it's directly related to the DPS from a gank catalyst or an alpha nado. I'm pretty sure it's CCP's position to protect those who like high sec gate camping as a way of life, so that level of tank is not really going to be exceeded on a T1 hull.

    Of course, as soon as you get into Low/Null/WH and can be pointed/webbed for more than 5 seconds, the definition of "Tanky" becomes very different. Really, you want something that can last for more than a minute under fire from a cruiser/BC, to at least have a chance to scramble backup.

    I heard things about the Strategic Hauler earlier in the thread which I very much liked (once POS subsystem refitting appears that is), and also something about a Siege/Triage module equivalent.

    The latter would actually be much simpler to implement with the current haulers, as you can just ban it in highsec. Therefore you can balance capable ships for both the highsec and Low/Null/WH version of Tanky; they can still be alpha'd and ganked in highsec, but have the capability to survive for a duration in the rest of the universe as well. Preferably it would need its own extra highslot for this, but that's rather up to the balance team.

    Either way, I support looking into making the ships distinguishable from each other and worthwhile; thank you Rise for not just pushing the quick changes through.
    LIYNX
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #816 - 2013-06-25 12:17:08 UTC  |  Edited by: LIYNX
    Kharamete wrote:
    Rhavas wrote:

    This. Spin a story about the Gallente and Minmatar selling the hull production rights to ORE because it's too expensive / not worth it for them to keep up with manufacturing so many variations and so sold the rights to ORE. *Poof* all fair, and no art changes need to be made, just change the description text to "sold in YC 11X to ORE, who modified the design to be a specialist in whatever".


    +1 this.

    Unlike the other minor factions, you at CCP already have a fairly heavy reliance on ORE for the industrial ships; what with the Orca and the Rorqual, and all the mining barges, exhumers and the venture. It fits well into a pattern that CCP already employs for these kinds of things.

    So, in the current narrative of 'empires losing control', ORE bought the rights from the current manufacturers to manufacture the 'left over' haulers because of reasons, and then specialised the designs. Maybe, since everyone used the Mk V Iteron, the other haulsers were just lossmakers. We all know what corporations think of losses. Lol That would remove the inquity because the design changes would require Ore Industrial skill rather than racial hauler skills.

    You could give the Hoarder a sig radius and align bonus. Iteron Mk II a warp core stab bonus. Iteron Mk III an ore hold. And Iteron Mk IV a speed bonus for fitting a cloak, like the Black Ops has.


    I also agree that this would be the most reasonable thing to do. It nicely removes the racial inequality and provides some depth to the range of haulers. you could adjust and rename the ORE frigate skill to apply to the new ORE haulers as well as the venture, which would give more meaning to actually training that skill.

    Then give them each a specialized bay, ore, gas, ice, PI or salvage (maybe even clones if you ever flesh out the dust eve integration Blink)
    Skia Aumer
    Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
    #817 - 2013-06-25 12:44:48 UTC
    Draco Fader wrote:
    The only thing that fills that gap is the Orca. It's really great for station moves. It also comes with a high price and lots of training just to fly it.

    Orca is easy to train for. Way too easy.

    LIYNX wrote:
    Then give them each a specialized bay, ore, gas, ice, PI or salvage (maybe even clones if you ever flesh out the dust eve integration Blink)

    Please stop this specialized bay madness.
    Specialized bay for hauler is like a built-in weapons for combat ships. Boring.
    Leskit
    Pure Victory
    #818 - 2013-06-25 13:28:56 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    UNDER RENOVATION


    I think this is my favorite thing posted by a dev in the past year on the forums.
    Valterra Craven
    #819 - 2013-06-25 14:03:07 UTC
    I really think you guys just need to give haulers to ORE as well.

    One of the things that really really annoys and frustrates me currently is that all the ORE skills just deal with ONE ship. Its frustrating that I have to train a skill just for one ship, when in the combat lines I get 3-5 ships.

    On the flip side this also makes ORE a 5th and more useful "race". That the art team is whining about assets isn't a very convincing argument to make not to do this, and as others have said, lore is very easy to change, especially with the way you guys are taking EVE as of late.

    Personally speaking, you either do a full scale industrial revamp with this now, or you do nothing now and handle this properly with the industrial revamp in the future. Players don't like stop gap measures, especially considering its been this way since 2003 with no changes. Balance has been broken for a long time in regards to this, and you don't have valid reasons for wanting to do this partially now. The time for that was in 2005-2006, not 2013.

    If you are going to do something, do it right the first time. Doing a partial change now and a full change later is not going to cut it given the amount of work and investment you've put into the amazing revamp of the combat lines.
    Spugg Galdon
    Last Rites.
    Infinite Pew
    #820 - 2013-06-25 14:03:29 UTC
    Smuggling.


    Perhaps smuggling is a profession that could have massive iteration. The first step would be to give a reason to actually smuggle stuff.

    First. We need to look at why smuggling occurs in real life and the types of goods that get smuggled.

    The way I see it is that people smuggle legal and illegal items both for profit. Illegal items are smuggled because they are illegal and must be smuggled. Legal items are smuggled to avoid taxes and fees.

    Perhaps legal items in EvE could start to have an import/export tax levied on them when you undock from a station.
    When you undock You would receive a pop up message that says "the export tax of the items in your cargo hold is x amount. Do you wish to declare these items?"
    If you say yes you pay the tax and undock. If you say no there is a chance you get caught smuggling. If caught you get hit with a suspect flag. Pew pew commences in the undock.
    This would put a niche into market trading as smugglers could gain more profit from moving small volumes tax free. Also people who want to be a "Hans Solo" type get to play at it.
    The export tax would be a good isk sink.

    A smuggling hauler ship would have a very low chance at getting caught, almost zero. A normal hauler would have a high chance.

    Certain items would be export tax exempt for example ammo and charges.

    If customs catches you with contraband they flag you as a suspect. Pew pew!


    Any thoughts?