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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Kraschyn Thek'athor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#781 - 2013-06-24 20:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kraschyn Thek'athor
CCP Rise wrote:


People keep saying this but it is simply not true. It would be if there was a counterpart for the other races. If you don't want to train missiles, its okay because you can train lasers. In this case, there is no option for Caldari or Amarr to counter balance, even if it was a different bay.



Versions:
Have you ever tried to recognize the difference between versions of World War II planes? Like a Spitfire MK I, MK III, MK V....
I tell you, I can recognize a MK I and MK V upwards, cause MK V upwards has cannons. But I could never tell you, is this an Spitfire MK V, VII, IX or XIV....

If you really "need" more variants, most of us can live with an Bestower MK II and Bestower MK III and let Art Department make some visual modifications, when there is enough time or swap the Modell later.
Progress is more important for most of us. You could even make an
- Khanid Bestower
- Ammatar Bestower
if you don't like Version Numbers.



And, declare the equal-ship distribution to be ending. Give every race an good core selection, and after that, diversification.
Unequality is no problem, as long as basic needs are satisfied. I would love to see Interbus Industrials, monstrous bulk indys, only capable of hauling veldspar....
Even a bit more NPC Industrials, to give Eve a more lively traveling. Build up some FactionWar, Missionrunning with shooting down NPC Industrials, traveling between Star Gates (even Missions, saving NPC Industrials, for training purposes for new Logi-Pilots)
Amaze us! Let us feel a sense of wonder.
You are CCP, your duty is, creativity :)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#782 - 2013-06-24 20:37:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

I've said it on my blog, but I'll stick it here too:

Give the Caldari and the Amarr the biggest general purpose bays, and the best of the other function.

Give the Minmatar the next biggest general purpose bay.

Give the Gallente the smallest general purpose bay, to make up for having the most flexible ship range.

My asbestos suit is ready for the flames.

Really that would just be a penalty to the Gallente and to a lesser extent the Minmatar. To be honest I'd rather not be relegated to 5 mediocre industrial ships, all of which failing to compete directly with competitors just because a few now even more lackluster in-between's.

Is a ship with a 50,000 m3 ore bay mediocre?

Depends, what do the other ships have?
Steve Ronuken wrote:
The Gallente and Minmatar would pay for their better specialist ships by having worse general purpose ships.

And you said that Amarr/Caldari would have "best of the other function." What is that function? I had assumed, apparently incorrectly, that that referred to new functionalities/bays potentially being added. Your post failed to mention any trade off's the Gallente on Minmatar would be getting in return, only stating that undefined flexibility leads to being penalized in 2 other areas, one of which also apparently wasn't defined in that post as well.
Chimpface Holocaust
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#783 - 2013-06-24 20:54:39 UTC
Here's my Idea for T3 industrials or as I like to call them "Strategic Haulers". just putting this out there

hulls are battlecruiser sized and use medium modules and rigs

each hull starts out with 500m3 cargo capacity. all additional bays are separate and cannot be modded

Electronics

exploration - bonus to scan probe strength +1/+1/+1

Ewar - bonus to racial Ewar modules +1/+2/+0

Salvage - bonus to tractor beam range and salvager access difficulty +3/+0/+0

Mining - bonus to mining foreman link effectiveness and tractor beam range - 100,000m3 Ore bay (can be accessed in space) +3/+0/+0

Defensive

Shield - bonus to shield resistances +1/+2/+0, +1 turret +1 missile

Armor - bonus to armor resistances +0/+1/+2

Warp - bonus to sig radius - Role Bonus: +2 warp strength +0/+0/+0

Amplification - bonus to racial self-repair and logistics modules +1/+1/+1

Engineering

Power Grid - bonus to power grid cap +0/+1/+2

Cap Recharge - bonus to cap recharge +0/+2/+1

Capacity - bonus to max cap +0/+2/+1

MWD - reduction in cap penalty for MWD +0/+1/+2

cargo (these cargo bays cannot be accessed in space and increase the ship's sig radius substantially the more they can hold)

Combat - bonus to racial weapons refire/range/tracking - Role bonus: +100% racial weapon damage - 15,000m3 cargo bay
+2/+0/+1 +2 turrets +2 missiles

Light Cargo - 30,000m3 Cargo bay +0/+1/+2

Heavy Cargo - 100,000m3 Cargo bay +0/+0/+0

Covert - bonus to racial weapons refire - Role Bonus: can fit Covert Ops cloaks - 15,000m3 scan immune cargo bay
+3/+0/+0 +2 turrets +2 missiles

Propulsion

Speed - bonus to max velocity +0/+0/+1

warp - bonus to warp speed +0/+0/+0

interdiction - bonus to agility - Role Bonus: immune to bubbles +0/+0/+0

afterburner - bonus to afterburner speed +0/+1/+0
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#784 - 2013-06-24 20:54:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

I've said it on my blog, but I'll stick it here too:



http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/2013/06/20/t1-industrials-and-the-value-of-skills/

What I put here was the tl;dr version, assuming that anyone who was interested might look out the blog post. so I didn't clutter up the thread.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#785 - 2013-06-24 21:17:24 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Make them all useful


then with the large cargo haulers you need to start again from scratch, because as i pointed out the bestower ***** on everything else for equal or lesser SP at it's primary role.
This is still not true, as the other ships offered competitive advantages in their align time, slot allotment, ehp, etc.

Please stop trying to spin this because you want Caldari to be the largest. That's likely never going to be the case, since Caldari are so low slot unfriendly. The new (old) Badger Mk II had a faster align and a much stronger tank than the Bestower could ever hope to accomplish.


which bit of "at it's primary role" did you totally ignore? all of it.

i don't want caldari to be the largest at all. i actually couldn't give a **** which is the largest. i own an orca. i'm just pointing out that these changes don't actually address the issue.

considering you didn't read my post, or understand the point i was making... i don't really know what to say to you.
I think it's funny that you belittle someone for "not reading" your post when you have yourself demonstrated a lack of reading (and comprehension) yourself just a few pages ago.

"It's primary role," as you're funny to point out, takes into account MANY factors, only ONE FACTOR is cargo room. Not only do I care, but many other people care if the ship is slow to align, easy to gank, etc. Guess what! All these things factor into how well a ship perfoms at its "primary role."

Eve would be real convenient if everything was as one dimensional as you view it to be. But, I'm sorry to say, it's not. You have to consider many various aspects of a ship when you determine how good it is "at its primary role."

And as its been pointed out numerous times before: Gallente/Amarr/Minmatar/Caldari all have their own strengths and weaknesses (even moreso once Rise gets another pass) in their own right that make them better "at their primary role," which--newsflash--is hauling. Hauling isn't instant and magic and only dependent on how much stuff you can cram in the bay.

Quit with the silly arguments that cargo room is the only factor to consider; you're making yourself look bad.


Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Iosue
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#786 - 2013-06-24 21:26:00 UTC
Rise,
Thanks for taking another look at this. I'd like to propose you consider using the T1's in conjunction with Freight Containers. Freight containers are currently a great storage tool for miners, however they are a pita to work with once they're deployed. What about allowing certain T1's the ability to move these containers with a tractor beam once they're deployed? It'd be great if the same ship could store several of these packaged containers at once. Just an idea to add a little flavor to some of these hulls.

Mister Tuggles
Dickhead Corner
#787 - 2013-06-24 22:12:55 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

I spent most of the weekend going over feedback and talking about this issue with a lot of different folks (CSM, Devs, and random folks from the community via stream chats or private convos), and I want to touch base with you about where I'm at.

First, I want to dispel any ideas about the level of investment in this project by myself or anyone else here. Like any other part of the game, we want this to be as good as it can be. The rebalance in the OP was not the result of some lazy afternoon where we dismissively decided what to do. It was the result of a fairly lengthy process of negotiating within the balance team about what industrial balance should really consist of. We started with fairly lofty ideas and slowly backed into a more conservative solution, both because of concerns about equality relating to the extra industrials and also because of knowing that more high level industry work was coming down the pipe that could impact our needs in the near future. Moral of the story: we care about this a lot, and want to do it right.

So, whats the plan? Although I am a bit nervous about backlash coming from the other direction, I want to take your feedback and try to do something that makes you guys more excited. As far as I can tell, there's a few common concerns/desires that you're hoping for with these ships:

  • Make them all useful
  • Make them as different from each other as possible
  • Add new function/purpose where possible

    • Most of these could be said in different ways, but essentially it seems that in-so-far as balance allows, you want more niche applications, more character, and more differentiation. To me this seems reasonable, as long as it doesn't obligate people people to cross train for very basic needs. So, here's what we're looking at doing to address these points:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.
  • More separation between the two basic hauler types - I want to achieve this through several means including giving the faster haulers better warp time (up to 6au/tick instead of 4.5au/tick), taking a mid slot away from the cargo focused versions to highlight the tank on the others (this will partly be counter-acted by giving back the second high to the cargo versions), along with other small changes to make some of the tankier haulers stand out a bit more.
  • More quirkiness overall - I won't go into specifics right now, and it won't be anything extremely drastic, but I want to try and get each ship within a role set apart from the others as much as possible to avoid any feeling of homogenization (though I still feel that the very simplistic hauling system doesn't provide a lot of room for variation that wouldn't severely handicap some ships).

    • I'll post again within the next couple days with details, but until then I hope this will do. Finally, I want to say that I really appreciate all the feedback that was given in a polite and constructive manner, both from the CSM and the community as a whole. I hope this change will help to build some faith in our ability to take that feedback into account and make good adjustments for you guys. (I also hope it doesn't make you feel like any time you make a 30 page thread I'll do whatever you say =)

    See you soon in the OP with more details
    Fly safe


    High sec capable non-combat carriers so I can move my many ships around.

    Make this happen. Meow.
    Singulis Pacifica
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #788 - 2013-06-24 22:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Singulis Pacifica
    CCP Rise wrote:
    In this case, there is no option for Caldari or Amarr to counter balance, even if it was a different bay.


    This is what I don't understand Rise. I know you don't have the resources available (time, manpower, etc.) to implement new uniquely looking ships for the Amarr and Caldari (and Minmatar to a lesser extent). But what about what I posted in my suggestion? For Amarr and Caldari, why not take one of the two models of these races and simply create another version of that ship?

    So example for Caldari: The Badger Mark S-1, S-2, and S-3 for special cargo hold capacities. They'll look exactly like the Badger or the Badger Mark II (which ever you decide), but the stats are slightly different and they have a specific cargo bay. See these ships as placeholders if you do decide to add more unique models for them in the future. I'm sure the community would heartily accept these placeholders thus giving each race three specific cargo hold industrials and two generic ones (secure-one and large cargo hold-one).

    Is that really so incredibly hard to do? I am no programmer as I said before. But isn't the most time-consuming task of a new ship the actual design of it and not so much the number crunch as far as stats are concerned?
    Stegas Tyrano
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #789 - 2013-06-24 22:27:12 UTC
    I'll most probably be denied but there's no harm in asking.

    Can I get a millenium-falconesque combat industrial? Pirate

    Herping your derp since 19Potato - [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2403364][Proposal] - Ingame Visual Adverts[/url]
    Zaknussem
    Everybody Loves Donuts
    #790 - 2013-06-24 22:48:09 UTC
    Sorta - There's the Jove Visitant, which has LOTS of slots and a 10000 m3 base cargohold, and while it present in the game files it's been unavailable to players since the launch of EvE.

    Too bad it looks more like the derelict from Alien than the Millenium Falcon.

    But back to the topic at hand.
    Olaf4862
    Dragoon Industries Limited
    #791 - 2013-06-24 22:53:52 UTC
    This may have been mentioned before but why cant Cargo Expanders Suffer from diminishing returns like Damage Mods and the like.

    I mean seriously how much extra space can you find in a ship... Having them have diminishing returns makes them less attractive when people over stack them and offers the player more ways to fit there lows instead of just loading them with all CE II's.

    If you redesign the module you can also then even go as far to come up with new Expander modules... can you say Ore Hold Expanders, Drone Hold Expanders, Ammo Expanders, Fleet Hanger Expanders and the like :)(make them only work on some ships). Could offer you ways to flavor the haulers with modules instead of an entire ship redesign.

    With this you can still do the initial changes you want and adding new modules offers players more flexibility in making there industrial's have a more specific roll.
    Kel hound
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #792 - 2013-06-24 23:10:59 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.

    • Just curious but are you guys aware that you actually have at least 3 hauler models for at least 3 races right? The caldari bustard is uniquely modeled from the badger mk2 and could easily be re-skinned to serve as another of these special purpose ships. The Amarr would be stuck with only 2 hauler models unless art wanted to be extra super duper awesome and give them a 3rd hauler model to play with, but it is at least something for you guys to consider when creating these ships.


    CCP Rise wrote:

    See you soon in the OP with more details
    Fly safe


    Very cool of you guys to do this, the stuff you initially put on the table - while good - was lacking imagination.


    Gonna throw one last suggestion at the wall to see what stick but, you could have ORE buy the rights to one of the haulers, say the Iteron Mark IV, give it an ORE paint job to go with the specialised bay and change the skill requirement from Gal Indy 1 to ORE indy 1.
    Catherine Laartii
    Doomheim
    #793 - 2013-06-24 23:13:20 UTC
    I think appropriating a third of the CPU that every industrial has into power grid would be an excellent place to start for all of them. Some ships like the badgers and perhaps the mammoth and iteron 1 could use some combat capability; having giving them some decent combat usability would be great in the form of missiles and drones; mostly just enough firepower to fend off a marauding frigate. This role can be expanded upon in blockade runners, which already sport a wonderfully large tank, can be expanded upon to do an acceptable level of damage in a small-scale pvp situation.
    Sabriz Adoudel
    Move along there is nothing here
    #794 - 2013-06-24 23:22:45 UTC
    I strongly support the idea that was thrown around a little of having at least one hauler with EWAR as a form of defense (perhaps the Caldari 'tanky' hauler could be configured to be able to fit 3 ECM modules and to get a bonus to them). I'd also like to see a hauler that can actually fit a moderate rack of guns (more firepower than a frigate, less than a destroyer). Players will find fun uses for such a ship.

    I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
    Cage Man
    Fusion Enterprises Ltd
    Pandemic Horde
    #795 - 2013-06-24 23:41:59 UTC
    Haulers should be allowed to defend themselves in the dangerous places of EVE.. Can we get some drone bays??
    Warde Guildencrantz
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #796 - 2013-06-24 23:48:29 UTC
    in all honesty training all racial industrials to 3 shouldn't be a problem for someone who wants to be able to use all of the specialty ships

    TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
    Lei Merdeau
    Hidden Agenda
    Deep Space Engineering
    #797 - 2013-06-25 00:42:43 UTC
    Horse is bolted. The different Indies were balanced somewhat by the tiers, and thus the training time.
    Hope they learn from this.
    Eladaris
    Indefinite.
    #798 - 2013-06-25 00:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Eladaris
    CCP Rise wrote:
    I spent most of the weekend going over feedback and talking about this issue with a lot of different folks (CSM, Devs, and random folks from the community via stream chats or private convos), and I want to touch base with you about where I'm at.


    Appreciate the 'renovation' sign in the OP, was afraid we might have another doubling down approach, and glad you decided to take the second look!

    CCP Rise wrote:

    Most of these could be said in different ways, but essentially it seems that in-so-far as balance allows, you want more niche applications, more character, and more differentiation.


    Character is a big part of it, IMO. Today it's all Itty V's all the time, but previously you saw a variety. Heck, I've got three characters with different V's in indy types, and none had access to the Itty line-up. Being able to quickly say "yup, you want that, fly this" sounds a lot better than "ah, well, they're all mostly the same because homogenization is important".

    CCP Rise wrote:

    To me this seems reasonable, as long as it doesn't obligate people people to cross train for very basic needs.


    Since cross-training can be done by the newest nooblet in 160 minutes, to fly ALL the indys, I wouldn't worry about it too much. The "But I trained an Itty V when it took 700 days crowd" will be bitter, but w/e. As an aside with the wrong memory mapping you can still train the other three races to III in less than 3 days, so it's really not a massive commitment.

    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.


    • Honestly, as long as the current math holds and Amarr is the king of the space wars Gallente will never be the undisputed king, and I'm all kinds of okay with that. Give them better 'specific' purpose ships that can carry more than the Bestower, when it's a specific item, and the Bestower can carry more of general stuff sounds fine.

    Personally I'd love to see less indy's with cookie-cutter fits, so if you could give them all bays that were balanced towards their intended carrying capacity so we had some real room to get creative with the low slots that'd be all kinds of grand. It's always struck me as boring that all the indy's were basically fit the same way (with only a bit of variant for the Indy's with 3 or fewer mids).

    Also, a paper-thin hull with a ship-bay for the nooblets who complete the starter school training programs who don't want to make five trips to carry their massive haul of T1 ships to a new system would be grand. I sort of remember needing to do that when I started, and it was a serious buzz-kill. Make it big enough to carry a cruiser or even a BS, but something a Reaper could pop sounds fine to me. Oh, you want to drag a BS to market? Sure, but it'll get popped by a passing Rifter sounds like a viable risk / reward balance.
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #799 - 2013-06-25 01:14:28 UTC
    As a whole, I really like how the rebalance is going do far, but I was wondering if there's going to be a module rebalance soon as well? Specifically weapons like turrets
    Lucius Saturninus
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #800 - 2013-06-25 01:19:17 UTC
    I'm just throwing it out there for a few more industrial options.

    Pirate faction? Navy faction? Ore?