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New dev blog: Starbase happy fun time

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Rafe Vatta
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#501 - 2011-11-07 22:36:38 UTC
Cool!

Be nice to keep the reduced fuel costs available, but cool regardless.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#502 - 2011-11-07 22:37:51 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
same reason as you seam to think this is a reason to remove faction pos's and the small advantage they give


Well, that's the thing - I am perfectly happy with all the changes proposed to faction towers as I [like every other businessman with even a slight bit of sense] will just pass on the fuel costs to my consumers and will revel in the larger fuel bays (which mean less work for me personally.)
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#503 - 2011-11-07 22:39:06 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
"We didn't do this ages ago because I couldn't see a good way to handle the handover until someone pointed out the (obvious) half-and-half solution, at which point I punched myself in the head for not seeing that earlier"

Could you please punch yourself in the head again until it dawns on you that the current POS Fuel mechanic is vastly superior to the one you're proposing to implement? I'm sure if your arm begins to tire or your hand gets sore that you could recruit some volunteers.


How is it even remotely superior? You're whining about losing sov and faction tower bonuses when the reality is those things do not matter.

This reduces logistical workload (important if you have a lot of pos) and adds a new product that people can manufacture for profit or if you are someone who likes to run things end to end, you can turn your PI products into blocks for more profit (not a bad thing).


as far as i can tell, you haul as much to the pos. so thats the same as now, you just have to manufature the blocks(if you have stocks of pos fuels) and it costs more to run pos's in sov systems, regardless if they are faction or not, also the same towers in sov system require more fuel and more hauling.
and thats an improvment?

OMG when can i get a pic here
Davzarek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#504 - 2011-11-07 22:39:19 UTC
Entity said it all:

Quote:

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

The benefit of faction towers is two-fold:
- Longer run time before refuel
- Lower cost per period

You're basically removing the cost benefit.


Better solution:
Instead of producing 4 fuel blocks per batch, produce like 100 or some other larger quantity per batch (and obviously make the volume per block lower and the blocks consumed/cycle higher). then you can apply fuel reduction bonuses as per usual and everyone will be happy.

Again, a lot of people, including me, bought a faction tower to save fuel cost, which is not insignificant. Removing that makes the investment pointless if all it does is give more time between refuels, which with this change would be of questionable value since it will be much easier.
Pfaeron
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#505 - 2011-11-07 22:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Pfaeron
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:

How is it even remotely superior? You're whining about losing sov and faction tower bonuses when the reality is those things do not matter.

This reduces logistical workload (important if you have a lot of pos) and adds a new product that people can manufacture for profit or if you are someone who likes to run things end to end, you can turn your PI products into blocks for more profit (not a bad thing).



Actually the sov and faction tower fuel use is a huge deal.
Unfortunately faction tower blueprints (or any other tower module) have not been dropping in exploration sites and such since CCP changed tower/module bpc's to use PI material. Oversight? Screwup? Conspiracy? Dunno.. but they haven't been dropping since

Thus.. the price of such towers has soared through the roof since each time one is destroyed, the overall supply is diminished permanently.

If the prices had not soured like they did.. people in 0.0 space at the least, should be upgrading all towers to faction towers because as income allows.. since at the price they used to be.. 1B for large towers... they would pay for themselves from less fuel use in less than a year.

The prices they are at now.. not worth it.

So.. lets review...
faction towers are very worthwhile both from their extra fitting/shield/resistances or whatever but also because of their reduced fuel use and shorter anchor time.
Except
CCP screwed up the game and they no longer drop anymore.

Savvy?

And now... under the new plan.. even if CCP were to fix the faction tower blueprint drops so they were in the game again, the market demand would be less since they no longer are as appeaing for their 25% fuel bonus. O well.

So that interaction between 0.0 purchasers and explorers loot.... gone..
Is the game better for it? I personally don't think so.
CommanderData211
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#506 - 2011-11-07 22:41:42 UTC
I tried to go through all 25 pages so pardon me if this was mentioned before, but something that would help any POS user out is the ability to access onlined structures out to 5 kM instead of 2.5.

Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top. Wait this is CCP. Pretty pretty please with a large bottle of booze on top!
Serenity 159080
State War Academy
Caldari State
#507 - 2011-11-07 22:42:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Serenity 159080
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:

Go fist yourself greyscale


CCP lost touch with the fan base, that is their fault.

But our fault is driving them away.

Can you blame CCP for not communicating with the players if this is what they encounter day after day?

The ideas that many players have posted about making the fuel blocks 10x smaller, and the towers consume 10x more/hour, I fully agree with, a simple change that would allow Sov Holders and Faction towers to maintain their bonuses.

The Icons for the different fuel blocks could be made a little clearer, something that we don't have to fix 6 months later :)

The one area that I would have to disagree with is that Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone are included in the block. This doesn't allow POS Managers to save fuel by offlining non-essential equipment.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#508 - 2011-11-07 22:44:15 UTC
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
"Could you please punch yourself in the head again until it dawns on you that the current POS Fuel mechanic is vastly superior to the one you're proposing to implement? I'm sure if your arm begins to tire or your hand gets sore that you could recruit some volunteers.


What are you smoking? Current refueling process:

  1. Go to fuel stash.
  2. For each tower you have to refuel, look up fuel needs on POS manager.
  3. Shift-drag each of the 8 fuels into your cargo, copy number from POS manager into the text box.
  4. If your cargo is full, remember how much you got and how much you still need.
  5. Go to tower and drop fuel.
  6. Repeat for next tower. Make sure you havent mixed up your towers.

New refuelling process:

  1. Go to fuel stash.
  2. Fill cargo with fuel.
  3. Warp to tower, fill bay with fuel.
  4. If cargo empty, go grab more fuel.
  5. Stop when all towers have full bays.

Now, which one is simpler, less boring, less prone to mistakes?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
baker43
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#509 - 2011-11-07 22:44:26 UTC
Agree!

Entity said it all:

Quote:

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

The benefit of faction towers is two-fold:
- Longer run time before refuel
- Lower cost per period

You're basically removing the cost benefit.


Better solution:
Instead of producing 4 fuel blocks per batch, produce like 100 or some other larger quantity per batch (and obviously make the volume per block lower and the blocks consumed/cycle higher). then you can apply fuel reduction bonuses as per usual and everyone will be happy.

Again, a lot of people, including me, bought a faction tower to save fuel cost, which is not insignificant. Removing that makes the investment pointless if all it does is give more time between refuels, which with this change would be of questionable value since it will be much easier.
Raid'En
#510 - 2011-11-07 22:44:26 UTC
CommanderData211 wrote:
I tried to go through all 25 pages so pardon me if this was mentioned before, but something that would help any POS user out is the ability to access onlined structures out to 5 kM instead of 2.5.

Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top. Wait this is CCP. Pretty pretty please with a large bottle of booze on top!

oh god yeah, forgot about this
Thomas Merrilin
Order Collective
Order Collective Alliance
#511 - 2011-11-07 22:44:34 UTC
What I can't understand is why we haven't gone for a simpler scaling of POS use by the time taken to consume blocks:

Small Tower = 60 minutes / block
Medium Tower = 30 minutes / block
Large Tower = 15 minutes / block

Faction Tier 1 = 18 minutes / block (this is 80 blocks per day)
Faction Tier 2 = 24 minutes / block (this is 60 blocker per day)

So basically this is no change a all from the proposals but retains the Faction bonus.

In the words of a meer cat... "simple"
Rek Esket
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#512 - 2011-11-07 22:45:06 UTC
Pfaeron wrote:
actually the sov and faction tower fuel use is a huge deal.
unfortunately faction tower blueprints (or any other tower module) have not been dropping since CCP changed tower/module bpc's to use PI material. Oversight? Screwup? Conspiracy? Dunno.. but they haven't been dropping since

Thus.. the price of such towers has soared through the roof since each time one is destroyed, the overall supply is diminished permanently.

If the prices had not soured like they did.. people in 0.0 space at the least, should be upgrading all towers to faction towers because as income allows.. since at the price they used to be.. 1B for large towers... they would pay for themselves from less fuel use in less than a year.

The prices they are at now.. not worth it.


And if you extend this out several years, the people that have faction POS will be a much smaller percentage of the tower operating population. If they maintain their fuel advantage, the margins they can afford for things like reaction chains will be untenable for the majority of the EVE playerbase.

This would be a bad design decision.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#513 - 2011-11-07 22:45:26 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
as far as i can tell, you haul as much to the pos. so thats the same as now, you just have to manufature the blocks(if you have stocks of pos fuels) and it costs more to run pos's in sov systems, regardless if they are faction or not, also the same towers in sov system require more fuel and more hauling.
and thats an improvment?


I'm going to buy my blocks off the market like any other sane person will, and I have faction towers so the sov changes won't effect me personally (love the extra large fuel bay idea). My prices might go up slightly if fuel blocks are significantly more expensive, but I doubt they will be.
Blurtmaster
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#514 - 2011-11-07 22:46:45 UTC
Yepp, that man know the words:


Quote:

Entity:

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

The benefit of faction towers is two-fold:
- Longer run time before refuel
- Lower cost per period

You're basically removing the cost benefit.


Better solution:
Instead of producing 4 fuel blocks per batch, produce like 100 or some other larger quantity per batch (and obviously make the volume per block lower and the blocks consumed/cycle higher). then you can apply fuel reduction bonuses as per usual and everyone will be happy.

Again, a lot of people, including me, bought a faction tower to save fuel cost, which is not insignificant. Removing that makes the investment pointless if all it does is give more time between refuels, which with this change would be of questionable value since it will be much easier.
Ehrine Ashbark
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
#515 - 2011-11-07 22:47:37 UTC
Rek Esket wrote:
Ugleb wrote:
2) Am I right in assuming that the ME is not researchable to improve the BPO's, or are the quoted numbers the 'perfect' build cost?


ME already only matters for minerals.


And for capital ship components. And T2 materials. And PI materials. In fact for everything I believe unless the wastage is set to 0% (which it is for things like ore compression).
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#516 - 2011-11-07 22:47:50 UTC
Rek Esket wrote:
Pfaeron wrote:
actually the sov and faction tower fuel use is a huge deal.
unfortunately faction tower blueprints (or any other tower module) have not been dropping since CCP changed tower/module bpc's to use PI material. Oversight? Screwup? Conspiracy? Dunno.. but they haven't been dropping since

Thus.. the price of such towers has soared through the roof since each time one is destroyed, the overall supply is diminished permanently.

If the prices had not soured like they did.. people in 0.0 space at the least, should be upgrading all towers to faction towers because as income allows.. since at the price they used to be.. 1B for large towers... they would pay for themselves from less fuel use in less than a year.

The prices they are at now.. not worth it.


And if you extend this out several years, the people that have faction POS will be a much smaller percentage of the tower operating population. If they maintain their fuel advantage, the margins they can afford for things like reaction chains will be untenable for the majority of the EVE playerbase.

This would be a bad design decision.


your right, they shoudl be added to the drop tables again. lazy game design is whats ****** eve up over the last few years, they need to stop repeating the same mistakes

OMG when can i get a pic here
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#517 - 2011-11-07 22:49:06 UTC
Nomad I wrote:
The production time for those blocks for a single large POS is 5 days (29days fuel) The 10min for a batch a far to high. In 0.0 this is a catastrophy and in empire halv of the production slots producing only those blocks.

Each high sec system with a large amount of moons needs at least fuel for 10-20 POS. In 0.0 there aren't the amount of production slots in the outposts.


Hey, anchor an ammo assembly array and you get...10 slots...

Assume you buy a fuel block BPO and don't waste your time researching it and take it for copying, you can use 10 slots in an ammo bay to churn out 1 month of fuel in...drum roll....12 hours.

OMG!

What's that, Skippy? Are the nullbears amazed you can use a POS for something aside from hiding in a forcefield while all those evil people come transit through their system and stop them ratting? What's that? Don't they realise they can anchor actual stuff to their Cone Of Stupididty small caldari refuge tower? OMG! is it, like, industry 1 pre-req to use an ammo assembly array?

Seriously. Anchor a frigging ammo assembly, buy a BPO, copy some BPC's, and use your brains, chimps.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Don Temujin
Mothers of EVE
#518 - 2011-11-07 22:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Don Temujin
Good changes overall, but if the goal is to make POS management less of a pain, why not keep isotopes out of the fuel blocks entirely (just like charters) ?

This way, your average POS lemming with n POSes to feed, can just haul a raw stock of race-agnostic fuel blocks (instead of 3-4 different stacks), drop the standard amount of generic fuel blocks in the tower, then top it off with whatever amount of racial Isotopes will fit in the remaining space and be done with it.

Alternatively, add an extra fuel tank for fuel blocks only, and use the 'old' one for isotopes:

  • that would ease the transition phase (pre-load 29 days worth of fuel blocks in the new tank sometimes before patch, and it will start feeding off already present isotopes right after patch) ;
  • and make future use easier (fill up fuel blocks tank, fill up racial isotopes tank, done).


Separately, considering many people invest in more expensive faction towers as much for the long term fuel costs savings as for the extra running time, preserving the fuel consumption bonus is quite important for those POS operators.
It could be done by either increasing the granularity of fuel blocks (make batches spew 16 smaller blocks instead of 4 big ones so you can account for the -25% consumption bonus), or by altering faction POSes cycle length (to 75 minutes instead of 1h).

I'd add some snark about how long it always takes you guys to come around to the obvious, but I've resolved to RP an optimist for the time being and assume we're playing under CCP 3.0b1 paradigm for now. Pirate

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."                   [H.L. Mencken.]
Kristen Andelare
Night's Shadows
#519 - 2011-11-07 22:49:20 UTC
My vote here for increasing granularity of the fuel (call them blocks or pellets I don't care). Keep faction towers and sov fuel savings alive, they are important enough. Don't make all towers essentially like houses in suburbia.

Decrease the run times on the BPOs, I don't have a problem manufacturing my own pellets/blocks.

Please, Please, Please consider balancing Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone yields per ice block refined. The imbalance is only going to magnify an already existing problem in highsec (with no access to Dark Glitter) once the change goes into effect and no fuel savings are given for offlined modules.

Other than that - great changes coming. Setting up a POS no longer a 4-6 hour project. W00t!
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#520 - 2011-11-07 22:49:24 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
as far as i can tell, you haul as much to the pos. so thats the same as now, you just have to manufature the blocks(if you have stocks of pos fuels) and it costs more to run pos's in sov systems, regardless if they are faction or not, also the same towers in sov system require more fuel and more hauling.
and thats an improvment?


I'm going to buy my blocks off the market like any other sane person will, and I have faction towers so the sov changes won't effect me personally (love the extra large fuel bay idea). My prices might go up slightly if fuel blocks are significantly more expensive, but I doubt they will be.


if your towers are in sov space your fuel bill just went up by at least 33%. aside that your not effected

OMG when can i get a pic here