These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New dev blog: Starbase happy fun time

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#481 - 2011-11-07 22:09:12 UTC
This 'fuel blocks' idea is ******* horrible. WTF are you thinking??? Leave POS fuel alone. Stop breaking what works ffs.

Rest is okay.
Ramman K'arojic
Lone Star Warriors
Brave Collective
#482 - 2011-11-07 22:13:23 UTC

George K'ntara wrote:
Dear CCP Greyscale,

So you can't make a faction POS use only 75% of a fuel block.

How about having the faction towers use the block for 133% longer instead.


For example[b] a normal tower consumes one block every hour [60 Minutes]. A low grade faction tower consumes one block every 80 minutes. A high grade faction tower consumes one block every 100 minutes.

Is there a reason that wouldn't work?
.


This was going to my suggestion.. Bolded the important bits.

The cheaper running costs are why I lashed out for a faction tower. They used to pay for themselfs in about 2 years. Now they never will :(

Ramman
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#483 - 2011-11-07 22:15:39 UTC
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
Leave POS fuel alone


No don't.

As for you retards complaining about the 'increased cost of liquid ozone and heavy water'. Suck it up and pass the cost onto your end users like everyone else will be doing.

Or you could just mine the ozone yourself, it's free right?
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#484 - 2011-11-07 22:15:44 UTC
nice change!

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar
Sigras
Conglomo
#485 - 2011-11-07 22:15:53 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Remove faction POS from the game completely.



Remove SOV from the game completely. as there both effected


I'm not sure if you're aware, but they removed the POS requirements for sov in a little patch a few years ago.

im not sure if youre aware but having sov gives a 25% fuel reduction to towers anchored in that space.
Brutus B
Brigand Brigade
#486 - 2011-11-07 22:15:55 UTC
“The one downside of this big-blocks approach is that it's impossible to give faction towers a fuel consumption bonus any more (you can't consume 2/3 of a block).” ~CCP

REALLY? REALLY?? People are already complaining about the fuel increases for small’s, and a fuelbay increase for factions is going to make up the difference in factions.

The fuel blocks are fine, I like the idea, creating a new niche for specialized industrialist/traders to fill is alright by me.

The failure to see that you ACTUALLY CAN use 2/3 of a block per hour of a block on some things is bad. After all, do all pos’s have to cycle one block per 60minutes? Couldn’t some burn the block in 70 minutes, or 90 minute spans, or 120 minutes spans instead of just 60? Why not?

When you create a unit like this, to get the same effects of fractions-efficiencies you have to consider playing with the “cycle time.”
Full-disclosure: I don’t personally operate pos’s, and definitely don’t spend my eve time fueling them, so I could care less if the costs of operating them goes up or down. I’ve been in corps that use them, but have always trade to keep as much distance between me and pos management as possible!--Just thought I’d give CCP an affectionate-good-ol’fashion kick-in-the-head for ruling out the possibility of dealing with fuel-costs fraction-efficiencies through making different kinds of pos’s cycle fuel at different burn rates.

O7

(Pretty sure I’m not the only one that has this idea, but near impossible to read all previous posts when they get to be so many pages long! Plus one support to all previous postings sharing the same or similar idea!)
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#487 - 2011-11-07 22:17:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Frothgar
One of the nice things about PI is it allows you to bring less fuel into a wormhole and fuel many of the components directly off of your PI sites.

I love the ability to keep doing this by manufacturing my own fuel in space using ammunition assembly arrays, any chance we can utilize this feature in other assembly arrays? EG component arrays, small ship, etc?

Edit: perhaps you can preserve the faction tower/sov bonuses by increasing the interval between consumption cycles rather than the amount consumed?
Raid'En
#488 - 2011-11-07 22:19:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Raid'En
Scrapyard Bob wrote:

One work around - allow the POS owner to set a fee for the use of the JB that scales in the same way that JB fuel usage scales. That would make them a bit more revenue neutral.

may be an idea to avoid some people crushing the ozone stocks for nothing.
but i dunno if it would really be used, given the situation ; if you need a friendly fleet to use the, you don't really want them to pay something.

however if some alliances allow neutrals to use the JB... that would be a different matter.

Atropos Kahn wrote:
Would like to see something mentioned on unanchoring pos's that have run out of fuel or have been abandoned.... Especially in w-space..

lots of subjects about this, and i would really like an option to take abandonned pos.
would be good for exploration gameplay : you could earn money simply by travelling, and finding something, then you ask for reinforcements with the logistics needed, and you earn a few hundred millions of isk.
i sometimes probe only by curiosity, to see where i will go, and a reason to do it is missing. the ability to get stuff would be really nice on these situations.

edit : also i would welcome a bit more of compression while creating the blocks, to help the hauling process. and switching the ozone / water level to the medium level of all pos in the game, to avoid big market spikes.
Pfaeron
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#489 - 2011-11-07 22:19:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Pfaeron
Quote:
The way we're strongly advising players to approach this handover is to fill your fuel bays with "half and half" - enough of the old fuel to last you to the changeover downtime and then some (I'd suggest 2-3 days extra just in case something horrible happens), and enough of the new fuel blocks to run the tower until you can fill it with 100% blocks. The server should then come back up after the update, see the new fuel and start consuming that like nothing had happened.


What is this half-and-half stuff?
How are we supposed to plan for that?
You realize how many towers some of us have to maintain?
25+ towers? Some corporations have far more.
Why are you putting in features that cause me more work and not more fun?


I am ok with the feature.. I think..
I need to calculate how many manufacturing lines will be consumed to cover a large alliance's fuel production needs.. as long as that doesn't come up with some stupid large number.. I guess I am ok with extra manufacturing work to gain a benefit of simple fuel calculations. (course, there's the hidden labor of all of us have to rewrite our pos-fuel applications.. joy..)

What does irritate me a great deal is this half-half fuel load thing... that requirement seems to have little to do with the feature and more to do with a sloppy roll out.

What you could be doing is changing the system @ the patch time.. in context with what was already there. Making it relatively seamless to the players.

Release the BPO's early so we can get some stockpile.

But the towers should burn only fuel until you are ready to switch over.. and burn only blocks after the switchover.
What's this middle-ground stuff about?

When the switchover happens.. during downtime.. calculate information you already know...

For each tower
1) without considering heavy-water/liquid-ozone use.. what is the minimum fuel in the remaining categories in terms of time (hours) is in the tower
2) calculate how many blocks are required for that time (hours * tower-size [Large=4, Medium=2, Small=1)
3) Remove all pos fuel from the tower
4) Add in blocks calculated in step 2
repeat

and the task above is probably just some sql code (that should be tested every which way from sunday before running it)

done.

And in the mean time, while waiting on the switchover.. I can of course imagine that it might be delayed... (naah, that never happens right?) if someone built too many fuel pellets or otherwise is worried about running out of fuel due to such a delay.. they still have the option of refining the fuel pellets they already pre-made (or bought off market) to get more fuel.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#490 - 2011-11-07 22:20:30 UTC
Dex Ironmind wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Dex Ironmind wrote:
The only people this is really "easier" for are those who simply buy their fuel directly off the market! Am I mistaken?

For everyone else, this actually adds a step to the refuel process, as well as some potential initial logistics (buying BP's and/or installing an ammo array if you don't have one). It doesn't sound like this requires any skills.


fueling a tower is shift-dragging your fuel stack onto the tower instead of laborously computing the precise number of eight different fuel types to get a tower max-fueled then moving those fuel types one at a time

if you have ever fueled a tower anywhere but in w-space this is a stupendous improvement


Fair answer ... thanks. Hadn't thought of it that way. I can get behind that.

Still would like to know about the details of the building process.

Dex was here. Cool


My guess on the build process, based on my experience building POS arrays (which use many of the same materials) and building stuff at a POS:

Put the components in the hangar, along with the BPO. Click on the BPO, select manufacturing, do normal job install.

Also Im sure the materials to make the fuel blocks will be listed on the BPO as "extra materials needed" which cannot be reduced via research.

As for convenience, I got this spreadsheet in which I enter what fuel is in the POS, what is in storage, and how many days I want to fuel to. It tells me what to buy and the total volume of the purchase. I adjust the days until the volume matches that of my hauler, and I got a shopping list.

Its a bit of a pain. After this change the shopping list will always be the same. No need to do the inventory, no need for the spreadsheet. Just buy what we cannot make via PI, drop it in the ammo array, run the job. Having to do the manufacturing is an extra step, but it will be faster then doing the inventory.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#491 - 2011-11-07 22:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
"we were ganked" double post.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#492 - 2011-11-07 22:23:03 UTC
I'm not sure if this has been answered, but two questions;

1) where will the BPO's be availiable from? (the Blog mentions Thukker Mix and just Thukker Mix, surely not for all 4 racial types?)
2) Am I right in assuming that the ME is not researchable to improve the BPO's, or are the quoted numbers the 'perfect' build cost?

http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/

The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.  Join channel JORIS to learn more!
Rek Esket
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#493 - 2011-11-07 22:24:45 UTC
Ugleb wrote:
2) Am I right in assuming that the ME is not researchable to improve the BPO's, or are the quoted numbers the 'perfect' build cost?


ME already only matters for minerals.
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#494 - 2011-11-07 22:27:09 UTC
"We didn't do this ages ago because I couldn't see a good way to handle the handover until someone pointed out the (obvious) half-and-half solution, at which point I punched myself in the head for not seeing that earlier"

Could you please punch yourself in the head again until it dawns on you that the current POS Fuel mechanic is vastly superior to the one you're proposing to implement? I'm sure if your arm begins to tire or your hand gets sore that you could recruit some volunteers.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#495 - 2011-11-07 22:29:14 UTC
Pfaeron wrote:
Quote:
The way we're strongly advising players to approach this handover is to fill your fuel bays with "half and half" - enough of the old fuel to last you to the changeover downtime and then some (I'd suggest 2-3 days extra just in case something horrible happens), and enough of the new fuel blocks to run the tower until you can fill it with 100% blocks. The server should then come back up after the update, see the new fuel and start consuming that like nothing had happened.


What is this half-and-half stuff?
How are we supposed to plan for that?
You realize how many towers some of us have to maintain?
25+ towers?


The simple answer to the "half-and-half".

In the week leading up to the change-over, you put 7 days worth of fuel pellets into the fuel bay and just fill the rest of the fuel bay like normal. Then, within seven days after the change-over, you go out with another 21 days worth of fuel pellets, swap out the old style fuel and fill it with the new fuel pellets.

Not very complex concept - except that you'll have to haul fuel twice that month instead of just once. After which, you gain the advantages of the new fuel pellet system.

(Or you could go with 10-days of new pellets and the rest as old-style fuel, if you want a slightly larger margin of error after the change-over date.)
Dr Mercy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#496 - 2011-11-07 22:30:18 UTC
Probably already mentioned, but there is an easy solution to the faction tower and sov bonus fuel reduction:

Pellet BPC produces 4x as many pellets as currently planned (Input cost remains the same. Pellet size 4x smaller)
Non-faction tower fuel usage get 4x bigger to 4/8/16 pellets per hour (small/med/large)

Now you can take into account 25% and 50% reductions.

(If I have a figure wrong here, feel free to adjust the multiplier.)

Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#497 - 2011-11-07 22:31:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas
Sigras wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Remove faction POS from the game completely.



Remove SOV from the game completely. as there both effected


I'm not sure if you're aware, but they removed the POS requirements for sov in a little patch a few years ago.

im not sure if youre aware but having sov gives a 25% fuel reduction to towers anchored in that space.


No, I am aware of that but I'm not sure why he thinks that is somehow a reason to 'remove sov'. I don't think there's really any good reason why sov should grant fuel reductions in the first place.
Pfaeron
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#498 - 2011-11-07 22:32:06 UTC
You are presuming that the patch happens on time and on schedule.

my proposal works regardless of when they switchover happens.. if its delayed.. no problem.
if you happen to be in Cancun during the week they want to do the switchover and fueled your towers for 27 days to compensate for that.. still .. no problem.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#499 - 2011-11-07 22:34:19 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Remove faction POS from the game completely.



Remove SOV from the game completely. as there both effected


I'm not sure if you're aware, but they removed the POS requirements for sov in a little patch a few years ago.

im not sure if youre aware but having sov gives a 25% fuel reduction to towers anchored in that space.


No, I am aware of that but I'm not sure why he thinks that is somehow a reason to 'remove sov'. I don't think there's really any good reason why sov should grant fuel reductions in the first place.


same reason as you seam to think this is a reason to remove faction pos's and the small advantage they give

OMG when can i get a pic here
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#500 - 2011-11-07 22:35:00 UTC
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
"We didn't do this ages ago because I couldn't see a good way to handle the handover until someone pointed out the (obvious) half-and-half solution, at which point I punched myself in the head for not seeing that earlier"

Could you please punch yourself in the head again until it dawns on you that the current POS Fuel mechanic is vastly superior to the one you're proposing to implement? I'm sure if your arm begins to tire or your hand gets sore that you could recruit some volunteers.


How is it even remotely superior? You're whining about losing sov and faction tower bonuses when the reality is those things do not matter.

This reduces logistical workload (important if you have a lot of pos) and adds a new product that people can manufacture for profit or if you are someone who likes to run things end to end, you can turn your PI products into blocks for more profit (not a bad thing).