Player Features and Ideas Discussion

This. Make the Amarr/Caldari the generalist races that cover multiple roles with their two ships, and then the Minnie/Gallente are the overly specialized ones with specific roles and higher bonuses. Sure, the Min/Gal would have the obvious advantage at a those roles, but adaptability in one ship has some significant advantages as well.

I am somewhat disappointed that all the BattleBadgers I have scattered about the map will need to be replaced, but w/e. Not like they haven't paid for themselves multiple times over already.

As a Minmatar industrial pilot, I like the Hoarder. As a Minmatar industrial pilot, I like the Mammoth. From the perspective of a pilot that owns both ships, I could go etiher way with the decision regarding which ship becomes the hybrid.

But I offer a different perspective:

Why make the Iteron V the opposite end of the Iteron? Why not make the iconic Iteron IV the high end cargo ship, and have the V become a hybrid along with the II and III? It certainly has the most exposure with the alternate skins.

Swapping the Hoarder and Mammoth progression due to art is like saying that the Iteron V must be the high cargo ship because of the numeric progression.

So while you are considering the Hoarder and it's position, please also consider the repercussions of making the Iteron IV the cargo ship, and making the V an in-between hybrid. Then please do it, if for only the reason that the Iteron IV looks better.

When they rebalanced destroyers and BCs, they didn't just switch up the roles that each race was famous for. Unlike PvP ships, industrials are not identified by their tank or weapon system. They are almost always evaluated in terms of their agility and cargo space. Not much consideration was ever given to industrials' other attributes because they were basically irrelevant. Most T1 haulers aren't used in any way that really requires anything other than optimal cargo space. Unless you're in losec or hauling something with a high value-to-gankliciousness ratio, you don't really need to worry about maximizing alignment time or using cloak/MWD. The typical balance attributes become more of a factor in transports, but when you get right down to it, it's still agility and cargo space that drive the discussion.

They seem to have balanced the new industrial numbers around core PvP concepts. The racial variants are balanced like what you'd expect for a ship of that race. Except cargo wasn't given a lot of credit as part of the core identity of these ships. Historical attachments aside, I can't think of any logical reason that would explain moving the biggest cargo from the Itty to something else. Or, for that matter, why Minnie ships would lose a significant portion of their cargo space. Actually, why were the industrials' cargo space rebalanced like that? What logic is being applied?

Will the industrial differences in cargo size will be reflected when it comes time to balance the freighters? If they change the Charon, the EVE industrial complex will go absolutely crazy. Freighter 5 is no joke to train.

I don't see any reason to have a class focused on tank and speed. Or to split them out into these particular three groups. The truth about hauling is that you're a dead man if you aren't in warp, jumping, or docked. You live at the mercy of EVE. You can up the tank on haulers, but the ganker will always win if the loot can pay his bills. That means the hauler has to honor the value-to-gankliciousness ratio no matter what. If they've got you scrammed, webbed, and bumped, your ship's attributes mean nothing.

If I could redesign the core concept of the hauler, it would be that they are cargo carrying escape and evasion devices. The transports touch on this concept by having cloak/small cargo and warp stab/med cargo. Maybe, bring that concept down to T1 and the 3 tier concept up to T2. You get Warp Stab+3/Large Cargo, Agile-Warb Stab/Med Cargo, Cloaky/Small Cargo and Warp Stab+1/Large Cargo, Agile-Warp Stab+1/Med Cargo, Warp Stab+2/small cargo. Give them a nice skill progression that takes pilots to industrials 5 and into transports. Give them enough tank to crash a gate in an emergency and increase all their warp speeds.

Whatever happens in the end, I hope someone will keep in mind those who have spent many years as haulers of one type or another. Haulers make the rest of EVE possible.

One way to give the Amarr ship a smuggling role without making the hull itself too specialized for a T1 ship would be to introduce a smuggling rig, which would of course eat lots of CPU. Of the small haulers, the Amarr could mount the most smuggler rigs, the Minmatar could be the risky agile ship, Gallente and Caldari could have better capacity and slots to mount some racial tank.

As an edit, maybe the T1 rig could hide some regular boosters and other contraband, with the T2 managing to hide the improved boosters.

The Hoarder looks terrible, it's just a pile of junk. Okay, that's classic Minmatar, but the Mammoth looks fantastic, it's got a real feel of scale, slowness and modular build about it, just like it really is a lumbering spacehauler that someone's created by jamming bits of ship together.

Mammoth >>>>> Hoarder.

Mammoth!

And if that won't happen I'll go all Don Quixote and try making it the least used ship in EVE.

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Regarding "There is no time/we could do more useful things":

Everyone is grateful for the rebalancing efforts and you did a great job, but:

No. You couldn't.

You spent so many months on combat focused Ships (of which there are many classes).
One would think you'd owe the industry backbone of EVE at least half as much.
Even though I don't do industry, everything else just wouldn't seem fair.
Instead be glad that there aren't as many industry related Ships and do this rebalancing properly the first time.
And while there are very different approaches to fighting, hauling does come down to not exploding while having as much cargo as possible - without specialized Industrials it will boil down to 2-3 FOTM ships again. Looking at the numbers i'd say Sigil + Itty V and maybe Bestower.

Do not put the industry focused players off with some half assed rebalancing.

The so called tanky Industrials are hardly going to be tanky as they could be ganked almost as easily as non-tanky ones (especially if you put few Expanded Cargoholds on them, as most of their HP increase will add to structure). They might be a good choice for running distribution missions and for quick trips to trade hubs, so the only real advantage they'll have over cargo-focused Industrials will be their agility. I say make their tank more like Procurer's but cripple their cargo capacity a bit more.


Speaking about T2 Industrials, one of their problems is that their bonuses to shiled boosting and armor repair amount are useless in most situations. I would replace them with something that can actually help you escape from a nasty situation, like bonus to ECM Burst strength. Also, now when Blockade Runners can fit Covert Cynos, they should all have 2 high slots.

Sigh - so my T2 rigged Mammoth (yes - insane I know, but it ships mostly on icefield duty) is now fkd! I have to get a Hoarder - I like this design, but I dont like that I now have a truly redundant setup.

If the plan is to 'switch' these ships then can you repackage Mammoths with rigs coming off for the change, or better (and less contentious), swtich all 'in hangar' mammoths to hoarder models and vice versa, maintaining their rig types.

Is it just me or did Caldari's take the short stick in this? None of their haulers shines :( Badger should get tad better align time I think.

Less contentious? Switch my masterful Mammoths with horrible Hoarders? Even nerfed, they can have my Mammoths if they pry them from my cold, dead hands.