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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Author
Dark Stryke
Doomheim
#261 - 2013-06-20 01:08:59 UTC
Copy/Paste:

I feel going down the current road is a mistake that just reinforces precedence of bad ship design when it comes to cargo bays. Instead, I would like to see thought given to changing the nature of ship 'cargo bays' when it comes to industrial ship lines, by utilizing a system that's already proven to work - ore bays.

Scrap the notion of industrial class ships relying on low-slot cargo expanders and create a new 'freight bay' that mimics the design of the ore bays. A set size which can only be expanded via ship skills, removes the need for 'fit all expanders' mindsets and balances the armor vs shield crowd in which armor is heavily penalized due to reliance on low slots. You can then start to diversify the ship lines in ways which matter more then just a similar slot layout, or forcing all ships to shield tank to varying degrees. Coupled with this, you could change deep-space transports to have mini-freighter size cargo holds fixing a T2 class which currently doesn't serve much purpose.

Now that you've given industrials and transports back the majority role of hauling cargo, changes can be made to the Orca and Rorqual. Lose the massive cargo bays, increase the size of the ore holds (seriously, 50k in an Orca is a joke in today's EVE) and you've just corrected another somewhat broken section of ships. Of course this would mean an end to the logistics Rorq, something I would probably be savagely beaten for even suggesting by many in the null-sec scene, but there are multiple instances of past history in regards to carrier hauling nerfs which show it was not the end of the world.

So in summary:
T1 industrials and T2 transports gain 'freight bays' with greatly reduced cargo holds (similar to barges now).
Orca and Rorquals have a greatly increased ore bays with corresponding reductions in cargo hold.
Shield vs armor tanked ships no longer have outright winners (shield) and losers (armor).
Cargo expanders still have a role, they're just not the only module that matters on an entire line of ships anymore.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#262 - 2013-06-20 01:10:58 UTC
For the speedy hauler, is there any chance of sacrificing the 5% cargo capacity for 10% max warp speed? Thus both bonuses would be oriented to less boring hauling flights.
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#263 - 2013-06-20 01:18:05 UTC
Indalecia wrote:
EDIT: also, not making the Mammoth the bulky industrial doesn't seem very logical. Just look at the sheer size of the model! It's gigantic!

Got to agree, this seems strange.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#264 - 2013-06-20 01:34:16 UTC
With all this talk of "specialization" haulers, maybe it's time to develop an ORE line that specializes in having different holds. One could have a PI hold, one an ore hold, one an assembled ship bay, etc. It'd take resources, sure, but it seems that there'd be some demand for it, provided of course that CCP decides to not implement some sort of specialization-holds for the races.

Those holds, btw, should be ore for Minmatar, PI for Gallente, assembled ships for Caldari and a smuggler hold for Amarr. ;)

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Rabbit P
Nuwa Foundation
Fraternity.
#265 - 2013-06-20 01:35:24 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
BADGER

Caldari Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Agility (was max velocity)

Slot layout: 2H(+1), 5M(+3), 5L(+3); 1 turrets , 1 launchers
Fittings: 185 PWG(+135), 950 CPU(+200)
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 3700(-425) / 18588m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1440(+1166) / 810(+67) / 2060(+1200)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 127(+7) / .89(+.1) / 10450000(-2300000) / 12.9(-1.1)
Signature radius: 190(-30)


Badger has 5 low
but the 18588m3 maximum capacity come from just 4 T2 expanders
3700(base) * 1.25 (ship bonus) * 1.15^3 (3 T1 expander rigs) * 1.275^4 (4 T2 expanders) = 18588

the maximum capacity should be 23700 if use all five low with T2 expanders

Rise, please double check is it a typo?
Zaxix
Long Jump.
#266 - 2013-06-20 01:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Zaxix
As a lifetime hauler and pilot max skilled in every single hauling ship in EVE, I come to defend the Mammoth!!! I can't imagine why anyone would call it ugly. It's certainly not as ugly as the Hoarder, which closely resembles a mole (the animal, seriously, look at. Little front digging paws and everything). I've always enjoyed zooming in on the ship as I undock, hit stop, let my speed drop to just shy of warp initialization, then hitting warp and aligning. That ship looks great in alignment, a massive structure that turns on a dime.

In fact, get rid of all minmatar haulers but the Mammoth and give it all the bonuses. All of them!

I'm very disappointed in your art department. For shame, Art Department, for shame!

edit: I also like the various specialized hold ideas. If I could afford the Quafe hauler with the Quafe hold, I would definitely buy one. I'd also love to see an interceptor style hauler with uber warp speed, ultra light tank, uber agility, something like a T2 hauler cargo-wise.

Bokononist

 

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#267 - 2013-06-20 01:50:18 UTC
I too am curious about the Art's opinion on the Mammoth. I actually like the look of all three Minmatar haulers (why I fly them instead of currently-superior Gallente spacedildos), including the Hoarder, but I don't understand how the Hoarder is better. Certainly the Mammoth could use some touching-up and updating, but that can really be said of all the minmatar haulers - especially when compared to newly-remodeled Matari ships such as the Stabber and Tempest.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#268 - 2013-06-20 01:51:06 UTC
Also as a Minmatar capsuleer, I take offence at the Art Department suggesting that the Mammoth is ugly. You want ugly? Check out the entire Iteron range. Who wants to load cargo into a long thin phallus? The Mammoth has what it takes to be a Minmatar industrial: capacious cargo hold, speed, maneuverability (after all, when you pay berthing fees you don't want to waste time getting into and out of the berth) and the awesome, minimalistic, engineering-driven design.

I urge the art department to reconsider their direction with Minmatar ships: we are about minimalistic, efficient, engineering-driven design. So please try using the phrase, "pragmatically engineered" rather than "ugly" to describe our ships?

I will ask my fellow capsuleers to be a little forgiving of the art department. We don't want them redesigning our ships in a fit of rage.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#269 - 2013-06-20 01:54:45 UTC
As long as they get redesigned, I'm willing to gamble.
Narjack
CragCO
#270 - 2013-06-20 01:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Narjack
Itty 5 needs its high slot back (for a tractor and its prototype cloak)

Maybe this:

So the Inty 5 or 4 (your choice) specialize it for low sec hauling by allowing it to fit a 10mn microwarpdrive and prototype cloak easily without a bunch of low slots or rig loss to power it up(power rigs or reactor controls).

Hell, just give me 3 high slots(proto cloak, salvager, tractor (maybe cyno), 2 mid slots (ecm burst + 10mn mwd), and 5 low slots(all cargo extenders baby!). Zero tank, fine by me.

Bottom line give me a hauler that can carry more than a TECH II hauler but relies on me using the cloak + mwd trick and my own tacs to avoid SB BS's at the gate. A boat that awards pilot skill and daring over the current cranes and such. But can haul more than the ultra safe true cloaky halers.
Jukio Saisima
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
#271 - 2013-06-20 02:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jukio Saisima
Ugly?

Look at our Domi. Will it get 25 mb drone bandwith soon?

What is next?

CCP this is getting crazy.

That is the most stupid explanation I've ever heard. Since when designers have say about performance?

It is time for someone that know something about the game.. to take over.

Can you please give us a list what designs you dont like?

That would be nice, so we can stop training on "ugly" designs.

I cant believe this.

Is this a joke?

LP
Absocold
Origin.
Black Legion...
#272 - 2013-06-20 02:14:48 UTC
Today I learned that 're-balancing' means 'make them all the same' i.e. boring. Why can't each race have an actual role? Example:

Gallente: Most cargo
Caldari: Most high-slots (salvage/tractor/lolguns)
Amarr: Most agile
Minmatar: Most EHP

But no. After this proposed change when a newbie asks which industrial to train for, the answer will be, "doesn't really matter" and a bored shrug.
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2013-06-20 02:24:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Karsa Egivand
I agree with the decision to sideline the Mammoth, if one of the Minmatar haulers has to be sidelined (Hoarder has a way better design than the Mammoth, and the Wreathe has a special place in my heart due to it being the basis of the awesome looking Prowler).

That doesn't mean all is good. I think you somewhat chickened out on the hauler tiericide. Just two distinct roles? Kinda boring.

I get that the decision comes down to not having the ressources to give Amarr and Caldari another hull, but still...
I hope you'll add more variety at some point in the future.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#274 - 2013-06-20 02:27:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
And in addition to tank, what about giving the T1 DSTs +2 warp core stability per level? You want people to use them in lowsec, right?

These ships need to bring something to the table that the Orca doesn't already have.
poppeteer
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#275 - 2013-06-20 02:28:05 UTC
You're seriously taking ship balancing direction from the art department? What?SadCry
krickettt
The Kronos Ritual
#276 - 2013-06-20 02:40:38 UTC
Save the Mammoth! Hoarder looks terrible.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#277 - 2013-06-20 02:40:46 UTC
I think these changes are good though perhaps you could step the iterons?
So that itty3 has 2.5% agility and 2.5% speed per level?
This way you have that interesting approach where if you autopilot you want more speed, where as if you are at the helm you want a bit more agility.
And this way hauling can be more tailored thus allowing more choices rather than the current one size fits all.
Callic Veratar
#278 - 2013-06-20 02:45:06 UTC
Karsa Egivand wrote:
I agree with the decision to sideline the Mammoth, if one of the Minmatar haulers has to be sidelined (Hoarder has a way better design than the Mammoth, and the Wreathe has a special place in my heart due to it being the basis of the awesome looking Prowler).


Everyone's allowed to be wrong every once in a while.
Ming The Merciless
Orbital Reclamation Services
#279 - 2013-06-20 02:48:07 UTC
Everybody is a critic.

Preface: Eve is a beautiful game, and we love the folks who make it beautiful through ship stats and art.

but...

The art department first made the rusty Minmatar ships less rusty and more shiny during V3'ification. Then they took the frill off the Vagabond, and then they toyed with our hearts on the Tempest's wingy-bits. Now they want to change the Minmatar hauler of our hearts because they think it's ugly...

No. No you will not change the role of the Mammoth because the art department said it’s ugly, that's a stupid reason.

Hey art department! Please go do art. We anxiously await the day you have talked about at fanfest when there is a lighting system in Eve that makes the Blood Red of the Carthum Conglomerate or Blood Raider color scheme look like the blood of the Heretics, more so than the burnt copper/poop brown currently displayed on ships like the Ark. We do appreciate your work un-screwing up the Vagabond, but I credit Rixx Javix and his merry band of hat wearing pirates for championing that.

Now... Back to our regularly scheduled arguments about more roles/differentiation between the racial variants of the haulers… It’s not the Gallente/Minmatar’s fault that the Amarr and Caldari only imagined two different types of haulers…. Fix that; don’t dumb down the Gallente/Minmatar ones.

There have been a lot of good suggestions posted so far… Go back to the drawing board. Please spend the appropriate amount of time and do it right. We realize it’s not as exciting has re-balancing HAC’s to you, but it means something to a lot of us folks who use them.
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#280 - 2013-06-20 02:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Karsa Egivand
Callic Veratar wrote:
Karsa Egivand wrote:
I agree with the decision to sideline the Mammoth, if one of the Minmatar haulers has to be sidelined (Hoarder has a way better design than the Mammoth, and the Wreathe has a special place in my heart due to it being the basis of the awesome looking Prowler).


Everyone's allowed to be wrong every once in a while.


Matter of taste and I seem to be in the minority.

Then again, maybe most people only chime up when their opinion is trodden on, maybe all the Hoarder lovers are simply too content to post. P