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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

First post First post
Author
Lei Merdeau
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#341 - 2013-06-20 12:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lei Merdeau
CCP Rise wrote:

On the Mammoth - As some of you seem to be joining the thread late or not reading the OP, please keep in mind that nothing is changing with the Mammoth model, and it isn't leaving the game. We are merely shifting roles around in a way that will likely make the Hoarder more popular.


As someone who's never flown a Mammoth, and probably never will

From ASIS now, info on Mammoth:
"The Mammoth is the biggest and the strongest industrial ship of the Minmatar Republic."

WHY do you need to change this?
This is very different from the Tiericide changes made to Battleships where weapon systems were changed.
They are still haulers, you are reordering them for the pixels?
Zifrian
The Pannion Domin
Ghostbirds
#342 - 2013-06-20 12:57:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

Just catching up on the thread. Still hoping to get back to you later today after I've been able to talk with art to get final word on the Mammoth/Hoarder issue.

I can't comment on all your feedback right this moment, but I'll try to hit a few points:

On the Mammoth - As some of you seem to be joining the thread late or not reading the OP, please keep in mind that nothing is changing with the Mammoth model, and it isn't leaving the game. We are merely shifting roles around in a way that will likely make the Hoarder more popular.

On "it wasn't broke, why change it" - I can understand that in a way it didn't feel broken, maybe because there isn't a lot of direct competition between them, but it really was. Tiering has just as many problems here as it does in combat ships. By removing tiers we're adding more legitimate choices for a certain job, which means more interesting gameplay.

Some people have said things like, you've changed a class with X ships into a class with only 2 ships (or some equivalent) - To me this is really hard to understand. The part that makes sense is that by changing the skill requirements(which is happening for all t1 ships in the game as part of tiericide), you went from a choice of ship based on how much you wanted to train, to just choosing the biggest cargo from day 1. This part is not negotiable as it comes from the overall tiericide effort. With that being the case, this balance work changes a class that had one option, to a class that hopefully has at least 8, based on racial preference and purpose.

Finally a quick note on "special bays" - We talked about this option quite a bit here at the office, and also with the CSM. While it does sound fun to add some new purpose (and new depth as a result) to haulers, there were simply too many problems to make this option seem worthwhile right now. There are issues with the level of specialization as it relates to t1 vs t2 ships. There were issues about equality of access, this being the case especially if we gave special bays to only the extra Iterons and the extra Minmatar ship, but also being the case if we gave one special bay to each race. What do we say to the Amarr Ice miner who has to cross train to Gallente? The idea has value, but with new industry work coming down the pipe, we would rather wait a while than assign a problematic role now.

T3 industrials then. Let people customize how they see fit. I realize you might not want to do it now, but these ships are boring and have one fit....max expanded cargo mods. Add that to the massive amount of hauling we do in the game, new cargo roles wold be a huge gameplay boost.

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CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#343 - 2013-06-20 13:13:23 UTC
Quote:
I feel like you've somehow missed the point of the outcry from these last 17 pages.


I haven't, I just wanted to make sure everyone understands what we're discussing. I know most people do, but there are some who seem to have heard about this and think that something drastic has happening to the Mammoth a la Vaga frills, which isn't the case. I realize that the role change is the issue for most people.

@ccp_rise

Joran Sothos
H.E.L.P.e.R
#344 - 2013-06-20 13:17:42 UTC
I guess I'm just not seeing how these changes will accomplish the goal of getting more people flying these ships.

The mining barge rebalance worked; I loved it. All of a sudden, there was a reason not to go straight from mining frigate to retriever to hulk, while at the same time not relegating the previous kings of the pile to obscurity. This proposed hauler balance seems to me to be taking what was done for the mining barges and grafting the process on to haulers.

The problem is, haulers and barges have one huge difference that gums up the works. The barges were all ORE ships and the haulers are race-specific. In combination with the skill requirement changes, this proposal even further waters down the choices for players. Because all the haulers will be identical (more or less) in terms of role and skill requirements, players continue with the post-Odyssey practice of picking the best (i.e. max cargo) hauler for the job. Granted, players did this before Odyssey, but not to the same extent.

The previous requirement to cross-train, and the differing levels of racial industrial skill required, meant that one did see a variation in haulers. As a Caldari pilot, for example, I didn't want to take the time to cross-train into an Itty V, so I stuck with my Badger II. My PI alt(s) trained into the best hauler for their race because I didn't want to take any more time away from training my main, etc. Now, there's no reason not to go for an Itty V, regardless of race. This will be true post rebalance.

Please explain how and why people will be using any of the other haulers? What we'll see is players flying one each of the best max cargo hauler, the best tanky hauler and the best speedy hauler and that's it.

In other words, haulers will look like pre-rebalance mining barges.

Additionally, why are T2 haulers not being rebalanced at the same time as the T1s? Surely the pros outweigh the cons? If the T2 haulers are left as is for an indeterminate length of time, hat will create it's own set of problems. The barges, T1 and T2, were rebalanced at the same time, why not T1 and T2 haulers? There aren't that many T2 hauler variants, and doing them all as a single package would seem to be better rather than worse.

Finally, the stated reason for changing the mammoth is simply not acceptable. The art department doesn't like the look of it, so out it goes? Really? Since none of these changes require changing ship models, what earthly reason is there for consulting the art department at all?
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#345 - 2013-06-20 13:25:54 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Originally we talked to the art department because we were considering a lot of options that involved either adding or removing art assets (as I've said several times already), and during those discussions it came to light that they prefer the look of the Hoarder to the Mammoth. With that in mind we made the Hoarder the larger of the two, not expecting quite this much resistance. I think the Hoarder is hilarious and very Minmatar and I would have thought more people agreed.

But anyway, I've talked with Art today, and they were happy to allow me to shift the models around as fit best based on feedback, so the Mammoth will go back to being the largest Minmatar industrial in terms of capacity. Thanks those of you that gave civil input on this =)

@ccp_rise

Armin Novastorm
Da Learnin Corp
#346 - 2013-06-20 13:26:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Armin Novastorm
I know there isn't enough people in this tread saying they want the mammoth to be on top so I will add my "voice" to the outcry. I want my mammoth to stay on top where it belongs. Now that I got that out of the way, about the original topic.


The first thing you mentioned is that there were more than 4 hulls and you wanted to make a change which would entice people to fly other hulls. This change will not do that for me. The only reason I would fly those other hulls is if I did hauling missions, which right now are not worth the time. For me the few times I am carrying something worth ganking me for I am doing it in a non-hauler hull anyway.

EDIT: Ok I guess there was enough outcry...
darmwand
Repo.
#347 - 2013-06-20 13:28:48 UTC  |  Edited by: darmwand
CCP Rise wrote:
Originally we talked to the art department because we were considering a lot of options that involved either adding or removing art assets (as I've said several times already), and during those discussions it came to light that they prefer the look of the Hoarder to the Mammoth. With that in mind we made the Hoarder the larger of the two, not expecting quite this much resistance. I think the Hoarder is hilarious and very Minmatar and I would have thought more people agreed.

But anyway, I've talked with Art today, and they were happy to allow me to shift the models around as fit best based on feedback, so the Mammoth will go back to being the largest Minmatar industrial in terms of capacity. Thanks those of you that gave civil input on this =)

I want to add to this : CCP Fozzie wanted to troll you guys by leaving the Hoarder, shows how far forum likes get you I guess.


\o/

Also, since you're talking to the art guys, ahem, what about the Comet? Smile

Edit: thanks for listening to the players, btw!

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#348 - 2013-06-20 13:33:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
I feel like you've somehow missed the point of the outcry from these last 17 pages.


I haven't, I just wanted to make sure everyone understands what we're discussing. I know most people do, but there are some who seem to have heard about this and think that something drastic has happening to the Mammoth a la Vaga frills, which isn't the case. I realize that the role change is the issue for most people.


People were reacting to this the same way Vaga frills were reacted to because for a lot of us, it's on the same level.

I'm glad to see that the matter has been corrected. Tell the Art department that if they think the Mammoth is so hideous, they are the Art Department. As long as the general spirit and flavor of the Mammoth isn't trampled on too much, I think the outcry might be able to remain at a dull roar.

I said some other things in this thread, and I'll hang around more to see if they're addressed later on.

darmwand wrote:

Also, since you're talking to the art guys, ahem, what about the Comet? Smile


The Navy Comet won't be changed back. CCP already said that it doesn't make sense for a Navy ship to have Civilian colors. They also hinted that perhaps at some point a Police Comet might be available to acquire, somehow.
Bytestorm
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#349 - 2013-06-20 13:34:59 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
so the Mammoth will go back to being the largest Minmatar industrial in terms of capacity


Great! Thank you. Love my Mammoth!

Now replace the warpstrength-bonus of the linebreaker with bubbleproofnes ;-)
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2013-06-20 13:38:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Originally we talked to the art department because we were considering a lot of options that involved either adding or removing art assets (as I've said several times already), and during those discussions it came to light that they prefer the look of the Hoarder to the Mammoth. With that in mind we made the Hoarder the larger of the two, not expecting quite this much resistance. I think the Hoarder is hilarious and very Minmatar and I would have thought more people agreed.

But anyway, I've talked with Art today, and they were happy to allow me to shift the models around as fit best based on feedback, so the Mammoth will go back to being the largest Minmatar industrial in terms of capacity. Thanks those of you that gave civil input on this =)

I want to add to this : CCP Fozzie wanted to troll you guys by leaving the Hoarder, shows how far forum likes get you I guess.



Woot!

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."

Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#351 - 2013-06-20 13:39:48 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
honestly, just remove all indies from the game and put in i set of Ore manufactured haulers.

C: would probably be hated by a lot of players because of how much flavor and history it would remove from the game.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. The lore, back story, history, or fluff (as a recent CSM decided to call it) is very important to many players.

if youre getting your eve flavour kicks from t1 haulers, then i feel bad for you

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#352 - 2013-06-20 13:40:46 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Originally we talked to the art department because we were considering a lot of options that involved either adding or removing art assets (as I've said several times already), and during those discussions it came to light that they prefer the look of the Hoarder to the Mammoth. With that in mind we made the Hoarder the larger of the two, not expecting quite this much resistance. I think the Hoarder is hilarious and very Minmatar and I would have thought more people agreed.

But anyway, I've talked with Art today, and they were happy to allow me to shift the models around as fit best based on feedback, so the Mammoth will go back to being the largest Minmatar industrial in terms of capacity. Thanks those of you that gave civil input on this =)

I want to add to this : CCP Fozzie wanted to troll you guys by leaving the Hoarder, shows how far forum likes get you I guess.


So what you are saying is that if I get enough likes that you will get rid of the racial industrials for ORE ones. Perfect! To Twitter and the blogosphere!
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#353 - 2013-06-20 13:47:49 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

I want to add to this : CCP Fozzie wanted to troll you guys by leaving the Hoarder, shows how far forum likes get you I guess.


Troll is a harsh word. Some specific posters were posting so badly about this that it made me have a strong desire to do the opposite of what they asked for. The rest of you were reasonable though so I was willing to look past the haters.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#354 - 2013-06-20 13:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Marcel Devereux wrote:
So what you are saying is that if I get enough likes that you will get rid of the racial industrials for ORE ones. Perfect! To Twitter and the blogosphere!


Replacing racial industrials with ORE ones would certainly fix the problem. Just make three of them, convert all existing indy BPs to the appropriate ORE versions, replace all the industrial skills with ORE industrial at the same level, replace all the ships, etc etc...

A lot of work, to be sure, but really the best possible solution. Although it does remove the Mammoth, so our victory would be lost... ..but it would be replaced by a bigger victory instead, perhaps.

"But Alvatore, what about the freighters?"
Leave the freighters alone. Since the ORE Industrial skill would replace racial industrial skills, it would also replace the racial industrial skills in the freighter trees. Then we can continue to have our shiny brand-new V3'd freighter models that are already balanced fairly well and have nice racial flavor. Plus, since they're capital ships, this would mean that crosstraining them would speed up just like for the other capitals.

This will, of course, probably never happen. It's not a bannable offense to dream, though...
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#355 - 2013-06-20 13:49:00 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Originally we talked to the art department because we were considering a lot of options that involved either adding or removing art assets (as I've said several times already), and during those discussions it came to light that they prefer the look of the Hoarder to the Mammoth. With that in mind we made the Hoarder the larger of the two, not expecting quite this much resistance. I think the Hoarder is hilarious and very Minmatar and I would have thought more people agreed.

But anyway, I've talked with Art today, and they were happy to allow me to shift the models around as fit best based on feedback, so the Mammoth will go back to being the largest Minmatar industrial in terms of capacity. Thanks those of you that gave civil input on this =)

I want to add to this : CCP Fozzie wanted to troll you guys by leaving the Hoarder, shows how far forum likes get you I guess.


That Fozzie is a right troll :P .. btw Rise are pirate ships next in que for tiercide?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#356 - 2013-06-20 13:50:51 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

I want to add to this : CCP Fozzie wanted to troll you guys by leaving the Hoarder, shows how far forum likes get you I guess.


Troll is a harsh word. Some specific posters were posting so badly about this that it made me have a strong desire to do the opposite of what they asked for. The rest of you were reasonable though so I was willing to look past the haters.



There there Fozzie we still like you despite your trolling ways ... i enjoy some light trolling myself so long as it is in jest :)

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#357 - 2013-06-20 13:59:30 UTC
I know this is the equivalent as trying to stop the tide from coming in, but it would be nice if CCP had game designers who actually flew and used the ships they are tasked with radically changing.

Fozzie flew combat ships in PL, Rise made You Tube videos of he engaging in null sec solo / small gang warfare.
When was the last time one of these two used a T1 hauler in high sec for extended periods of time?

It would be smart if CCP had game designers with a high sec industrialist background (the main users of the T1 hauler) to overhaul these ships.

Oh yeah, I forgot....that would kind of a problem for CCP.
Name the last dev / game designer CCP pulled from high sec.
Kenpachi Viktor
Perkone
Caldari State
#358 - 2013-06-20 14:03:22 UTC
Rixx Javix wrote:
Dear CCP Art Department,

Thank you. Thank you for not liking the look of the Mammoth. By coming forward and revealing your disdain for the "look" of this horribly ugly ship you have revealed your intelligence. The Mammoth IS ugly, it was beaten quite hard with the ugly stick. It hit every branch in the ugly tree when it fell out of production. It is soooo ugly it would make a freight train take a dirt road!

This is the entire point of both the Mammoth and the Hoarder, they exist to be ugly. If indeed, they are on the block for revision, then they need to be V3'd to be even more ugly in high-resolution. You have streamlined and purty-fied far to many Minmatar ships, the Industrials need to stay horribly ugly. That is their character, the entire summation of hurried, clunky, use what is at hand MInmatar design philosophy.

I am encouraged by your obvious attention to detail, it has only taken you ten years to realize the obvious - the Mammoth is freakishly butt ugly. Not every ship in Eve needs to be streamlined perfection, we need and demand our ugly be respected, admired and enhanced. It adds character to homogenization.

Keep the Mammoth ugly. In fact, it could stand to be even worse in my opinion.

More ugly in my Eve. Save the Mammoth.

Don't make me go and start a whole other campaign, cause you know I will.


Cross-trained Minmatar haulers just to fly the "ugly" mammoth Cool

A war that would’ve involved 20,000 players, 75% of nullsec space, and hundreds of supercapitals was halted not by diplomacy, but by a game mechanic so dreadful that those who have experienced it previously have no desire to do so again. - Fix POS & SOV

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#359 - 2013-06-20 14:03:39 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I know this is the equivalent as trying to stop the tide from coming in, but it would be nice if CCP had game designers who actually flew and used the ships they are tasked with radically changing.

Fozzie flew combat ships in PL, Rise made You Tube videos of he engaging in null sec solo / small gang warfare.
When was the last time one of these two used a T1 hauler in high sec for extended periods of time?

It would be smart if CCP had game designers with a high sec industrialist background (the main users of the T1 hauler) to overhaul these ships.

Oh yeah, I forgot....that would kind of a problem for CCP.
Name the last dev / game designer CCP pulled from high sec.


Someone earlier in the thread made a comment about how these changes seem to be made from a PVP point of view rather than an industrialist's point of view. This would probably explain it quite nicely, not that any of us didn't already know this was the answer.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#360 - 2013-06-20 14:05:10 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
so the Mammoth will go back to being the largest Minmatar industrial in terms of capacity. Thanks those of you that gave civil input on this =)
Regardless the model, can you make the extra minmatar hauler not suck so badly compared to all the others? It has worse agility and capacity than the iterons, is barely larger than wreathe yet much slower. Is that intentional?