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New dev blog: Starbase happy fun time

First post First post
Author
Arra Lith
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#321 - 2011-11-07 18:42:34 UTC
Quote:
We stuck with small numbers of blocks and no fuel use bonus on faction towers because dealing with small numbers of blocks makes starbases in general easier to use


This is bad approach. Most people use decimal system. So its no difference for humans between 1 or 10 or 100 per hour. If someone want to fuel POS for 10 days it doesnt matter if you make 1 hour burn 100 units or 10 units. It will be even easier if you make it 100 per hour than 4 per hour. And most towers in EVE universe are large standard ones.
Crunchmeister
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2011-11-07 18:42:40 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Currently thinking about:
Keep on posting, we are paying attention :)


That single line, as small as it seems to be, is probably the greatest dev post in this thread so far. Perhaps on the entire forum even.

Seriously, the fact you guys are finally really paying attention to the ideas and suggestions of the community rather than ignoring us and going about with your plans unhindered speaks volumes on the fresh new attitude CCP has been demonstrating as of late. Two thumbs way up for that. Keep it up.

People were constantly telling me I was crazy. For a long time I didn't believe them, but after a while, I started to think they might be right.

But it turns out that they were all wrong. One of the voices in my head is a psychiatrist and he says I'm perfectly sane.

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#323 - 2011-11-07 18:42:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Tas Nok wrote:

which really brings up the other problem, this one size fits all while wonderful for POSes that have enough guns and arrays to really fill up an overview doesn't do much for the corp with the faction tower with only a few mods online specifically in order to save fuel costs! now with the blocks it won't matter if I have 1 gun online or 20...


Which is not a real big issue. If you assume a non-faction, large tower with no sov bonuses you were paying current about (per 30 days):

174M for PI-sourced fuels
155-167M for isotopes (310M for oxytopes)
2.3M in Heavy Water - if you ran at full tilt
34.6M in Liquid Ozone - if you ran at full tilt

So, Heavy Water was about 0.5% of your fuel cost per month and Liquid Ozone was about 9% of your fuel cost per month. Assuming that you used about half of your PG, you saved a mere 17.3M ISK/30d each month.


This uses the costs as they are now, not as they will be in 2 months. If we get a heavy water shortage the cost could go sky high.

What is needed to insure ice mining supplies sufficient heavy water for POS needs, either by boosting heavy water obtained from ice or by reducing the need in fuel cube production.

Edit 1
CCP: If Im a POS user who mines his own ice, mining sufficient ice to get the isotopes should also get me sufficient heavy water and liquid ozone.

Edit 2
If it all comes from ice in sort of set amounts that get used in set amounts, why have them? Maybe HW and LO have outlived their usefulness as game mechanics. Just get rid of them. Jump bridges run on fuel cubes.

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Frozen fanfiction

Harleigh
Genbuku.
Psycho Unicorn Squad
#324 - 2011-11-07 18:44:25 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Currently thinking about:

  • Fuel divisibility situation (ie, faction/sov fuel bonuses)
  • Block build times


Keep on posting, we are paying attention :)


I like the new CCP :) \o/




Chesticular Homicide
Boundless Invention
#325 - 2011-11-07 18:46:56 UTC
Faction fuel pellet blueprints are a terrible idea.

Where would they come from? They wouldn't be BPO's, no faction blueprints are. So, there would end up being a per pellet blueprint cost associated with the pellet, which could end up negating the fuel savings benefit you get from the tower.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#326 - 2011-11-07 18:48:31 UTC
Iniquita wrote:
Internet Knight wrote:
In reference to changing the fuel system for faction control towers... why not just change the fuel cycle time?

Where standard towers cycle through fuel every one hour, why not have tier 1 faction towers cycle every one hour and fifteen minutes, and have tier 2 faction towers cycle ever one hour and thirty minutes?

Makes sense to me.



This seems incredibly logical. This same mechanic could be used for sov


Arrays cycle the same as the pos. This is/was needed for accurate fuel calculations.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Andre Coeurl
Embers Children
#327 - 2011-11-07 18:49:07 UTC
Arra Lith wrote:
This is really stupid. One change and faction towers are useless. What next?
Also sovereignity wont give any fuel usage boost any more ???

You cant make tower to burn 0.75 unit. But it should be possible to make tower burn 100 units. Faction tower then gets 25% usage bonus, and it use 75 units. Sovereignity futher increase it by 25%, making tower burn 50 units per hour.

It should be dont this way:

BPO for 100 fuel blocks uses current hourly large pos usage.
1 hour cycle uses:
Large standard POS: 100 blocks
Medium standard: 50 blocks
Small standard: 25 blocks
Large faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 75 blocks
Medium faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 38 blocks
Small faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 19 blocks
Large faction and sov claimed: 50 blocks
Medium faction and sov claimed: 25 blocks
Small faction and sov claimed: 13 blocks



If nothing is changed industry gets really bad hit.
Just make reactors anchorable in hi sec and make EVE another sims type game, will be easier to finally quit and find something better...


CCP Grayscale, I absolutely agree with all those who pointed out that faction tower (and sov) bonus must stay as it is, and that there are ways to make it work.

In general, the idea of making blocks doesn't seem any good to me in general, as it doesn't change the basics of POS fueling, while adding an industry step in the process.
The basics are having (buying, mining or producing) a plethora of items in different amounts, and getting them all in one place, and you added the need to have a production step before being able to use the fuels.
Some may like this (ppl who just buy the blocks off the market, and in general, those who have more ISK than manpower), while it is highly inconvenient to those who do the fuelling completely or partly by themselves, as they won't be able to haul stuff separately unless they can manufacture the blocks in the tower.
Of course, the production cost and time of blocks themselves is also an added disadvantage, the time being a particular PITA for those who are now able to just go to a station, buy the fuels they need, and go back to their tower and fuel it... now they'll have to get all the fuels together in one place, start the production, and wait one day or so do do the actual fueling.

It really looks like you only asked 0.0 alliances (or to ONE alliance) before rolling out this. Ugh
ED209X
South Park Development
#328 - 2011-11-07 18:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ED209X
quote=Chesticular Homicide]Faction fuel pellet blueprints are a terrible idea.

Where would they come from? They wouldn't be BPO's, no faction blueprints are. So, there would end up being a per pellet blueprint cost associated with the pellet, which could end up negating the fuel savings benefit you get from the tower.[/quote]






They would come from the same place all the other BPOs come from.
C4 985
Space Fiber Weavers
#329 - 2011-11-07 18:49:43 UTC
I might have not understood this correctly but this will occupy the manufacturing slots in a station? If so it s***s.
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#330 - 2011-11-07 18:50:58 UTC
faction towers that hold extra fuel are not worth billions. I bought them because i know i would have them for years and theyre savings eventually added up. Getting rid of their fuel savings is just plain bad news. and if you dont change it i cant see anyone spending isk on faction towers post expansion.

Event Organizer of EVE North East

mkint
#331 - 2011-11-07 18:51:01 UTC
Momoro wrote:

How about give the control tower a special manufacturing facility like the Rorqual has? It can only turn PI / ice products into these fuel blocks. If not, then some information about what pos module can make these blocks would be useful.

Beautiful idea. Even better if it doesn't use manufacturing slots, doesn't require blueprints, and engages itself automatically (even if it has a delay between input and output) and uses the fuel bay as input/output. That would make the change a buff to everybody, not a buff to CCP friends and a nerf to everyone else.

That, and removing HW/LO from the pellets (to not totally f*ck up the market with static supply/consumption ratios with no valves to otherwise release the pressure) should be minimum requirements for this to hit TQ.

Seriously, some parts of this are really really bad™ and those parts seem to not be getting as much player attention as they deserve.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#332 - 2011-11-07 18:51:05 UTC
George K'ntara wrote:
Dear CCP Greyscale,

So you can't make a faction POS use only 75% of a fuel block.

How about having the faction towers use the block for 133% longer instead.


For example a normal tower consumes one block every hour. A low grade faction tower consumes one block every 80 minutes. A high grade faction tower consumes one block every 100 minutes.

Is there a reason that wouldn't work?

That would affect reactions too, as they output every tower tick. Not the way to go

K.I.S.S. Just make it 400 / hour for a regular large and scale that down as necessary for the others, faction, and SOV.



Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#333 - 2011-11-07 18:52:37 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
This uses the costs as they are now, not as they will be in 2 months. If we get a heavy water shortage the cost could go sky high.

What is needed to insure ice mining supplies sufficient heavy water for POS needs, either by boosting heavy water obtained from ice or by reducing the need in fuel cube production.


Heavy water shortages only exist in the minds of clueless speculators. Ice mining in empire produces much more heavy water than liquid ozone. Even dark glitter, the best source of LO, still produces 1 unit of HW for each 2 units of LO.

Ozone gets used by towers, cynos, and most importantly, jump bridges.

Heavy water gets used by... towers.

I really don't see the demand catching up to the supply any time soon.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#334 - 2011-11-07 18:55:04 UTC
Hi Devs, wile you're at it why don't you take a look to the efficiency of Refining arrays ?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=312464#post312464


35% maximum for the basic ones
75% maximum for the intensive ones

Too big a penaly to refine in a POS. A boost seems reasonable to me...

Radix Salvilines
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#335 - 2011-11-07 18:55:50 UTC
"it's impossible to give faction towers a fuel consumption bonus any more (you can't consume 2/3 of a block)."

you guys fell over the simpliest of things...



Give a faction towers an extra option that players may switch on at their whim. This option will make starbases use 2 blocks per 3 hours.

More clearly:

Mode A: 1 hour cycle time/1 block consumed

Mode B: 3 hours cycle time/2 blocks consumed

(this is just a general idea not real numbers)
I cant believe how simple is that...
ED209X
South Park Development
#336 - 2011-11-07 18:57:17 UTC
Camios wrote:
Hi Devs, wile you're at it why don't you take a look to the efficiency of Refining arrays ?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=312464#post312464


35% maximum for the basic ones
75% maximum for the intensive ones

Too big a penaly to refine in a POS. A boost seems reasonable to me...





Yeah, why doesn't skills increase the percentage?
Frozen Guardian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2011-11-07 18:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Frozen Guardian
To give faction tower bonuses in high-sec, if they match the racial type of the system's NPC faction no charters are needed. In fact actually I don't understand why you can't just get rid of the entire charter system to begin with while doing this fuel change and just require faction standing?

It's more or less a pointless inconvenience than anything as it doesn't come close to breaking the bank in terms of money. Why force people to now calculate that they lose a fuel block of space adding in a random amount of charters?
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#338 - 2011-11-07 19:00:22 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ciar Meara wrote:
Most important sentence:

"While we're waiting to do a proper rewrite of the starbase system"

Give us a modular POS, like the great flogger of the dead horse in the sky saw in his dreams!


Agree, let's do exactly this.


Wait... wait... what?... did CCP just say they were going to rewrite the starbase system, and like 3 posts not one but two CCP'ers agreed that the flogging a dead horse idea needed to be implemented? What happy alternate universe full of rainbows and unicorns that fart chocolate did I enter into? This is too good to be true...
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2011-11-07 19:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev
Sinq Arnolles wrote:
I have to say I hate this idea.

Currently I fuel pos's to 18 days and we have about 40 with the current system I can carry 18 days of fuel for 2 large pos's and a medium at a time in my rorqual that has about ~150k m3. This will only let me carry a large and a medium at once.

So thanks for making me use more jump fuel, spend allot more time having to fuel the damn things and il have to train up another manufacturing alt just to keep up with building the damn fuel blocks. Yeah thanks.

Unless you produce all the fuel yourself, why would you want to manufacture all the fuel blocks yourself? Just buy them off the market like you do with the fuel.

And hooray to CCP, I had POS ina WH and it was a horrible pain the ass, i would always forget some fuel type and had to look for another exit before the damn thing goes offline.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#340 - 2011-11-07 19:03:32 UTC
Frozen Guardian wrote:
To give faction tower bonuses in high-sec, if they match the racial type of the system's NPC faction no charters are needed. In fact actually I don't understand why you can't just get rid of the entire charter system to begin with while doing this fuel change and just require faction standing?

It's more or less a pointless inconvenience than anything as it doesn't come close to breaking the bank in terms of money. Why force people to now calculate that they lose a fuel block of space adding in a random amount of charters?


Charters aren't that big of a deal (and they already removed them from being required in lo-sec). And they make role-play sense that you need a contract from the sov owner in order to run a tower. They also provide a small LP sink, which makes other LP stuff worth more due to LP being spent on charters.