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New dev blog: Starbase happy fun time

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Iniquita
Perkone
Caldari State
#301 - 2011-11-07 18:26:20 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
Iniquita wrote:
Instead of the half and half fuel thing, have you considered just converting or replacing fuel in towers at downtime? This seems better than having to ensure each of our 100 pos has a 50/50 fuel mix in two weeks. Then having to haul back the old fuel type afterwards.

I would much prefer every tower just getting 2 weeks of fuel pellets.


I'm in favour of delegation of responsibility on this one, really. It's a bit more of a pain, but the sheer number of things that could go wrong if something doesn't convert right could make this a major pain to do. By saying it's the player's responsibility to make sure their POS are ready to cut over, means CCP doesn't have to worry about every single starbase converting right.


Then it would be nice if they left in the old fuel consumption as an option. Code pos to use both fuel types, old before new. That way old fuel will be consumed first until gone then any fuel pellets in the tower would be consumed.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#302 - 2011-11-07 18:26:23 UTC
Tas Nok wrote:

which really brings up the other problem, this one size fits all while wonderful for POSes that have enough guns and arrays to really fill up an overview doesn't do much for the corp with the faction tower with only a few mods online specifically in order to save fuel costs! now with the blocks it won't matter if I have 1 gun online or 20...


Which is not a real big issue. If you assume a non-faction, large tower with no sov bonuses you were paying current about (per 30 days):

174M for PI-sourced fuels
155-167M for isotopes (310M for oxytopes)
2.3M in Heavy Water - if you ran at full tilt
34.6M in Liquid Ozone - if you ran at full tilt

So, Heavy Water was about 0.5% of your fuel cost per month and Liquid Ozone was about 9% of your fuel cost per month. Assuming that you used about half of your PG, you saved a mere 17.3M ISK/30d each month.
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#303 - 2011-11-07 18:26:38 UTC
Are these seriously the best fuel calculations you can come up with? I suggest more head punching.

You've changed the fuel market dynamics dramatically, just look at high-sec forge region, last time I looked at heavy water it was 21.17 p/u, I looked a little while ago when I was working out the new costings, and there were 2 sellers in forge, the rest of the market was bare.
You've created an extra demand for heavy water and liquid ozone of around 12.7k units for a dread guristas medium tower over a 4 week period. That's the equivalent of an extra 500+ blocks of ice people need if they mine for their own towers.
You've also created an excess of robotics, and mechanical parts, so those prices will probably drop.

Overall, personally I think the calculations could have been better. You say you've spoken to large holders of towers, I suspect they were big 0.0 power blocks where fueling is a hassle, for empire dwellers, it makes no real difference if you've got to fuel your tower after 25 days, or 35 days, just a couple of iteron V's worth and it's done.

Yeah it's a whine post, whatya going to do about it Lol
Callic Veratar
#304 - 2011-11-07 18:27:17 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Why not just convert the fuel that is currently in the fuel bay into fuel pellets?


Convert a gas engine car to a diesel engine car as it's travelling down the highway.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#305 - 2011-11-07 18:28:00 UTC
Not to point out the obvious, but why not make 8 blocks per production run (same materials)?

Small tower: 2 blocks / hour
Small pirate tower: 2 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity
Small commander tower: 1 block / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity

Medium tower: 4 blocks / hour
Medium pirate tower: 3 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity
Medium commander tower: 2 blocks / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity

Large tower: 8 blocks / hour
Large pirate tower: 7 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity
Large commander tower: 6 blocks / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity

Sovereignty reduces fuel consumption by 1 block per hour down to a minimum of 1 block per hour (so no free small commander towers in sov systems).
Nocturrne Primitive
Evil Young Flesh
#306 - 2011-11-07 18:28:25 UTC
Toshiko Kin wrote:
Nocturrne Primitive wrote:
Temmu Guerra wrote:
Nocturrne Primitive wrote:
No! No! NOO!

So, not only do I have to flog myself to gather all of the fuel, but I also have to package it into friggin blocks....

How is this supposed to make our lives easier?



Why not just buy the blocks?



Buy where? There is no market or even a station near most of our POSs. In 0.0 we must be self sufficient. At the moment, we harvest all of our POS fuels in system or nearby. Having to travel long distances and make or buy blocks is an epic nightmare.


Did I miss something? I could have sworn the dev blog said they would be manufactured in POS ammo arrays?

"The four racial fuel blocks will be built in batches of four in all stations, plus starbase ammo assembly arrays..."

So why are you traveling long distances again?



You are missing the point. How does adding these extra steps make our lives easier? POSs are already one of the most horrible things in eve - everything about them needs to be simplified. How can the idea of making them more complex even be considered? This is just looney...
Arra Lith
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#307 - 2011-11-07 18:31:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Arra Lith
This is really stupid. One change and faction towers are useless. What next?
Also sovereignity wont give any fuel usage boost any more ???

You cant make tower to burn 0.75 unit. But it should be possible to make tower burn 100 units. Faction tower then gets 25% usage bonus, and it use 75 units. Sovereignity futher increase it by 25%, making tower burn 50 units per hour.

It should be dont this way:

BPO for 100 fuel blocks uses current hourly large pos usage.
1 hour cycle uses:
Large standard POS: 100 blocks
Medium standard: 50 blocks
Small standard: 25 blocks
Large faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 75 blocks
Medium faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 38 blocks
Small faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 19 blocks
Large faction and sov claimed: 50 blocks
Medium faction and sov claimed: 25 blocks
Small faction and sov claimed: 13 blocks



If nothing is changed industry gets really bad hit.
Just make reactors anchorable in hi sec and make EVE another sims type game, will be easier to finally quit and find something better...
Internet Knight
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#308 - 2011-11-07 18:32:57 UTC
In reference to changing the fuel system for faction control towers... why not just change the fuel cycle time?

Where standard towers cycle through fuel every one hour, why not have tier 1 faction towers cycle every one hour and fifteen minutes, and have tier 2 faction towers cycle ever one hour and thirty minutes?

Makes sense to me.
Mzr
Session9
#309 - 2011-11-07 18:33:28 UTC
Ok, gonna make a summary of what's good and bad with the new system and the things suggested in this thread.
Simple = good so I like the new changes, but a few issues need to be adressed.

1. Faction towers don't have any fuel reduction bonuses atm, nor do sov towers. This is bad. Refueling faction towers every 42 days is not gonna help me much vs. regulars at 29. You're just telling me I have to visit a faction POS (roughly) 9 times a year instead of 13 (regular) - not interested, you already added the much needed bonus to vanilla towers.

Solutions:
a) If faction/sov tower fuel reduction cannot be reached via the time unit (60min being a hardlock), then please consider the granulation suggested in this thread.

b) Faction BPs to manufacture faction fuel blocks, prolly those can be seeded as well - but you have to take into account tier1 and tier2 faction - prolly this adds more complexity to solution - your call. After production those faction blocks could only be used in their respective POSes types.

2. We already have the fuel (block ingredients), just let us transform it to pellets/blocks (delivery method to the POS) very easily. We're in the business of burning fuel, not cooking it some more - block build times are ridiculous. Same goes for refine - let us refine any unused blocks at 100% efficiency (or skill related).

3. Extremely low anchoring/onlining times can lead to people literally ninja'ing POSes up/down fast. Idk, but it seems this mechanic can be abused. Keep an eye on it.

4. As McCreedy once said `I'm gonna cut your balls with a rusty spoon` :) if you leave all racial blocks blue. It's retareded and creates confusion. How about have them nicely glowing in the racial ECM colors (so POS owners actually learn something about EW :).

5. While we're on the POS subject how about you make a small but extremely usefull change to POS reactions: let us move intake silos / harvesters / reactors / couplings / exhaust silos / etc. up and down as tiles (exemplified here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZYtq0K-Ass - sorry, your link integration doesn't work) - so we get the much needed logic in reaction chains. You really don't want to see how everything looks on a large POS that does 2 moon reactions and manufactures boosters.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#310 - 2011-11-07 18:33:40 UTC
How big is that bruise on your head mr greyscale?

either way awsome change.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#311 - 2011-11-07 18:33:48 UTC
Mioelnir wrote:
Not to point out the obvious, but why not make 8 blocks per production run (same materials)?

Small tower: 2 blocks / hour
Small pirate tower: 2 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity
Small commander tower: 1 block / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity

Medium tower: 4 blocks / hour
Medium pirate tower: 3 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity
Medium commander tower: 2 blocks / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity

Large tower: 8 blocks / hour
Large pirate tower: 7 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity
Large commander tower: 6 blocks / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity

Sovereignty reduces fuel consumption by 1 block per hour down to a minimum of 1 block per hour (so no free small commander towers in sov systems).



i could live with this. add a extra fuel bay for charters in empire, cos well there bits of paper and should have a document folder not a fuel bay.
reduce the build time on the fuel cube batch to 1min from 10min

OMG when can i get a pic here
Internet Knight
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#312 - 2011-11-07 18:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Internet Knight
double post
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#313 - 2011-11-07 18:33:53 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
HOLY **** CCP!!!

Thanks guys!!

As to Faction towers can you make their fuel cycle 1.5 hours or something to still give a fuel bonus? maybe 1 hr 10 mins?

I don't use them, but just thought I'd toss out the idea.

I love that CCP is removing UN-NEEDED COMPLEXITY!!

The game is getting richer, thanks!



Or maybe every "X" cycles consuming blocks it skips "Z" cycles don't consuming blocks?

Or maybe every "X" cycles consuming blocks its "Recycles wastes" creating one additional block?

The less stress on the hardware the better... pick one...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
s1n1ster m1n1ster
Brutor Tribe
#314 - 2011-11-07 18:34:47 UTC
Hello,

great changes!!!

now a suggestion!
we all know how it sucks for people living in POS's to figure out security etc...!!

sugestions!

corp hanger, different sizes for different m3 in it, so that you can configure how much m3 to give to each members!, they can use it sperately and they can only use it! ->> secure!
--->> for mods

same thing about where to store ship, make members have XXX m3 to store their ship, if they want more ships, their problem leave in pos shield!

different sizes of these for different m3 -> corp numbers!


what ya think?
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#315 - 2011-11-07 18:35:44 UTC
Now that's amazing changes, more time to actually pew pew or "bzzzzt" rocks Lol

I'm not directly concerned but expect these changes to please a lot of players. Not all obviously.
Momoro
#316 - 2011-11-07 18:37:52 UTC
Crexa wrote:
Nomad I wrote:
To me this system makes pos fueling much more expensive. I have either to anchor an extra POS to produce blocks, because the production slots are so limited or I have them to buy on market. This system is becomming more annoying.



The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree with you.Straight

Perhaps a new fuel producing module for pos? While your at it, take a look at refining arrays.


How about give the control tower a special manufacturing facility like the Rorqual has? It can only turn PI / ice products into these fuel blocks. If not, then some information about what pos module can make these blocks would be useful.

I also support higher discretization of blocks so that you can support pos fuel bonuses. I highly recommend discretization at 100 blocks fuels a normal large tower for an hour (50 for a medium, 25 for a small). I can multiply by 10s in my head pretty easily (2400 blocks is enough fuel for a day).

I am a bit concerned about the heavy water and liquid ozone use going to maximum. For POSes that use 137 liquid ozone instead of 150, this matters little and the changes reduce complexity. This does make a lot more difference for POSes that used 0 liquid ozone and would now use 150 though. This situation particularly occurs when initially onlining a tower.

I am willing to accept some turmoil and imperfection sooner as long as we get iteration to smooth out the bumps. Just acknowledge and communicate them.
Iniquita
Perkone
Caldari State
#317 - 2011-11-07 18:38:03 UTC
Internet Knight wrote:
In reference to changing the fuel system for faction control towers... why not just change the fuel cycle time?

Where standard towers cycle through fuel every one hour, why not have tier 1 faction towers cycle every one hour and fifteen minutes, and have tier 2 faction towers cycle ever one hour and thirty minutes?

Makes sense to me.



This seems incredibly logical. This same mechanic could be used for sov
DisBeyotch
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#318 - 2011-11-07 18:38:23 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Tas Nok wrote:

which really brings up the other problem, this one size fits all while wonderful for POSes that have enough guns and arrays to really fill up an overview doesn't do much for the corp with the faction tower with only a few mods online specifically in order to save fuel costs! now with the blocks it won't matter if I have 1 gun online or 20...


Which is not a real big issue. If you assume a non-faction, large tower with no sov bonuses you were paying current about (per 30 days):

174M for PI-sourced fuels
155-167M for isotopes (310M for oxytopes)
2.3M in Heavy Water - if you ran at full tilt
34.6M in Liquid Ozone - if you ran at full tilt

So, Heavy Water was about 0.5% of your fuel cost per month and Liquid Ozone was about 9% of your fuel cost per month. Assuming that you used about half of your PG, you saved a mere 17.3M ISK/30d each month.


Your logic is flawed. Your numbers are correct given the current POS fueling setup. With the documented changes the market demand for HW is going to go up by a factor of 10, directly causeing the price to go up exponentially as well.
darius mclever
#319 - 2011-11-07 18:39:51 UTC
Momoro wrote:
Crexa wrote:
Nomad I wrote:
To me this system makes pos fueling much more expensive. I have either to anchor an extra POS to produce blocks, because the production slots are so limited or I have them to buy on market. This system is becomming more annoying.



The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree with you.Straight

Perhaps a new fuel producing module for pos? While your at it, take a look at refining arrays.


How about give the control tower a special manufacturing facility like the Rorqual has? It can only turn PI / ice products into these fuel blocks. If not, then some information about what pos module can make these blocks would be useful.

I also support higher discretization of blocks so that you can support pos fuel bonuses. I highly recommend discretization at 100 blocks fuels a normal large tower for an hour (50 for a medium, 25 for a small). I can multiply by 10s in my head pretty easily (2400 blocks is enough fuel for a day).

I am a bit concerned about the heavy water and liquid ozone use going to maximum. For POSes that use 137 liquid ozone instead of 150, this matters little and the changes reduce complexity. This does make a lot more difference for POSes that used 0 liquid ozone and would now use 150 though. This situation particularly occurs when initially onlining a tower.

I am willing to accept some turmoil and imperfection sooner as long as we get iteration to smooth out the bumps. Just acknowledge and communicate them.



they already said there will be pos arrays to build those fuel blocks on the POS.
Grukni
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#320 - 2011-11-07 18:39:56 UTC
I sign for more fuel granularity: 40 cubelets instead of 4

Does CCP want to get rid of fuel reduction advantages of faction POSes and Sov? please, CCP, comment on this.