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Noob Training....Avoid The Cliff..
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-11-07 17:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Ok, so I had a thought to do a MAJOR OVERHALL on the training system Eve currently uses to introduce noobs to the game.

Ok, so for the first month of a new players life they're actually put into a constellation consisting of 6 systems that is locked from access by non-noob players.

In this constellation there are 2 high sec systems, 2 low sec systems, and 2 null sec systems.

A new player will spawn in one of the 2 high sec systems, and will have done nothing but choose a name for their character and design their character.

While in this constellation they will be guided through pretty much all aspects of Eve.

Missioning, mining, PI, market, probes, scanning, FW, production, Capturing a null sec system. EVERYTHING.

They will start int he high sec systems where they will be tought on mining, PI, missioning, probes, the market, production, and whatever else should be trained in high sec.
They will be given skills related to the task they are on. The game will describe to them the skills in which they're being introduced to and what effects they have on the task at hand.

They will be guided through several ships of each race in both pvp and pve.

They will get a chance to fly marauders, titans, supercarriers, logistics...you name it.
While they're put into each individual ships the training will explain to them how to fit these ships with a passive tank (if possible), perma tank, and buffer tank.
It will even give them the related skills for that ship and explain to them how they effect the ship.

The constellation will allow players of eve to volunteer to come into the training grounds to
1) help the players understand
2) Give the players some cooperative gameplay
3) Give the players someone to pratice logistics on and from
4) Combat the players in pvp with several ship types
5) Make it feel less empty

While the older players are in the training grounds they will be given the skills related to the task in which they are providing, which can be chosen at any time.
They, like the rookies, will not have to pay for a single ship, but will have them given to them based on the task they are currently engaged in.
It has a limit however. Older players can only remain in the training area for one month and then they're locked out for a certain period of time.
This is to keep players from trying to persist in these systems.

While in this training they will be given options as to which style ships they like to fly.
They will fly several frigs, bs's, marauders, cruisers, strategic cruisers.
They will be tought how to fit them for different fits and situations.
Whatever.

Then, they will given asked which race they prefered.
Once they decide this, then they will be taken more in depth into that race, as far as ships and fits.
At any point in time they can swap to another race, if they feel they're not happy with their current selection.

At the end of the month, they will once again be asked which race they prefered.
Once choosing they will then be ejected into a rookie system related to the race they chose, and that will also be the race in which they are.

Now, the skill points in which they would have aquired during that one month had they been training the entire time will be given to them in one of 3 ways.

1) The points are simply given to them and they're given the option to apply then skill points when and where they want.

2) The skill points are applied to skills and ships related to the race in which they chose.

3) the skill points are applied to manditory skills such as electronics and engineering.

Most of all, any training in this area is not only displayed writen but would also be vocal.
Perhaps with a hot british chick accent, or the typcially manly voice.(everyone hates reading in a game)


This is to not only give new players better experience with the aspects of eve, but also allows them to have that experience before they dive in and get f'd because the current training aspects in eve are lacking at best.

This also allows the players to have experience with higher end ships like marauders, titans, carriers, and several other ships. This would allow them to set goals as far as progression because getting into that next ship is what kept most of us going, but knowing what that next ship was took some time to figure out. My goal ship was a golem, but I didn't even know it existed until I was playing with probes and scanned one out, then sat there and watched it blow **** up...It was awesome.

But it also allows the rookies to have a better understanding of how the ships work and how to fit them.

Not to mention it allows them to know what to train. Had the rest of us had this experience we wouldn't have waisted skill points in ships, weapons, or any other modules we may have trained for, then later realized we like something else. ( I trained for some turrets and gallente ships before realizing I liked missiles and caldari ships(when I scanned out that golem))

So to recap, here's what noobs will get from this
1) Experienced training on ships and modules to better know how to fit, what to fit, when to fit it, and what it's used for.
2) Experience with the different races so they can better decide which race they want to be
3) Experience with pve, mining, pvp, FW, production, and whatever else so they can better decide what they want to do in Eve.
4) Easier to understand training that doesn't go right over their heads, like the current training program.
5) Goals to attain, thus giving them a reason to stick around, and a reason for why they're progressing.

If you're simply creating an alt character, then you have the option to skip the training and jump straight into the game, but the amount of awarded skill points is based off the amount of time you spent training.

Suggestions?
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-11-07 17:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Solinuas
you know i kinda expected crap, but this seems pretty solid, but as for the players teaching i think signing up for something like the BH would be best and then it creates a char that cannot leave the noob const on your account in a spare slot, also you would have to get some things to prevent greifing them as well, maybe disallow the experienced players to initiate agression, put something on teh char to prevent them from firing first but they are of course allowed to fire back, also disallow taking from cans/wrecks that dont belong to you
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-11-07 17:56:50 UTC
Solinuas wrote:
you know i kinda expected crap, but this seems pretty solid, but as for the players teaching i think signing up for something like the BH would be best and then it creates a char that cannot leave the noob const on your account in a spare slot, also you would have to get some things to prevent greifing them as well, maybe disallow the experienced players to initiate agression, put something on teh char to prevent them from firing first but they are of course allowed to fire back, also disallow taking from cans/wrecks that dont belong to you


Well, as far as an alt character that isn't allowed to leave... I wanted to avoid something like that to avoid players persisting in this training ground... Don't want someone trying to live there where everything is free and all the required skills are handed to you.

Now, as far as griefing. It would not be allowed at all. This area would be quite limited.

While you're volunteering, you're restricted to the specific task you're willing to engage in. While you do have the option to do other things while waiting for someone to come along in which you're assisting to train, you wouldn't be allowed to interfere with the current training of another player, unless it was your task...Such as a mission that was designed for you to come in and bait a trainee without them actually knowing what you're doing, because it's part of the learning experience.

That said, I do feel that griefing, baiting, gate camping, and other aspects like this should be included into the training process, but should be limited to the time in which a player is meant to be experiencing said issue.

This is to allow these rookie players to have experience with these issues and have some understanding of what caused it, and how to avoid it. This way there aren't tears and rage quits when it happens on the real server, or at least they have a firm understanding of what's going on when it happens.

Most noobs don't know not to pick up the crap from that yellow container until it's too late, or they don't know not to shoot that guy that's blinking yellow or red until it's too late, or not understanding gate camps, or what to expect in low sec, again, until it's too late.

These aspects of eve should be included into the training process because they are important parts of eve that players should be told about before bad things happen. These training grounds would be the perfect place for them to learn the hard way, but without actually losing anything the way they would in server..

Being podded should be involved as well, and they should know what it means to be podded without an updated clone.

Again, all aspects of Eve that should be tought early on so that new players have a better understanding and less reasons to quit/rage quit.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#4 - 2011-11-07 18:02:43 UTC
no.

throw them into the morass that is EVE with the rest of us -- newbie only regions will cause them to quit when they try going to somewhere they shouldnt (e.g. J-LPX7, down in Delve) because they THINK they can get through low/null fine (because they could in their starter region).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2011-11-07 18:13:04 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
all aspects of Eve that should be tought early on so that new players have a better understanding and less reasons to quit/rage quit.


Except, because you've been holding their hands all the way through, the second they get into the real game and get scammed, ganked, robbed, ransomed and all the other fun stuff eve players do, they'll quit anyway.

Would this be optional? If I went and made an alt account, would it have to sit through a month of being totally useless? What about if I recruit someone to eve who wants to come fly with me and suicide rifters into everything ever? Would they have to wait a month? Why?

What's all this about letting them fly titans? How would that work? How do you expect people to respond when you take away all the stuff you gave them in the newbie zone and tell them they can't have it for a year or three?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-11-07 18:13:28 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
no.

throw them into the morass that is EVE with the rest of us -- newbie only regions will cause them to quit when they try going to somewhere they shouldnt (e.g. J-LPX7, down in Delve) because they THINK they can get through low/null fine (because they could in their starter region).


As I said, the training would be in all aspects of Eve.

And with my second post, they would also have training in griefing, and gate camps.

The would come out of rookie training with a broad understanding of eve to include high sec life, low sec life, null sec life, and even Wh life. They would be given the training on knowing the differences, and the experienced players that come in would be there to assist in them knowing the difference.

There will be situations where they're tought how to suprise attack, and there would be situtations where they're hit with a suprise attack (unknowingly)

So again, the training program would take them through all aspects of Eve. This way they know what they should and shouldn't do on the real server, instead of being on the real server and learning the hard way...Which is what leads to most of them quiting.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2011-11-07 18:19:40 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
no.

throw them into the morass that is EVE with the rest of us -- newbie only regions will cause them to quit when they try going to somewhere they shouldnt (e.g. J-LPX7, down in Delve) because they THINK they can get through low/null fine (because they could in their starter region).


As I said, the training would be in all aspects of Eve.

And with my second post, they would also have training in griefing, and gate camps.

The would come out of rookie training with a broad understanding of eve to include high sec life, low sec life, null sec life, and even Wh life. They would be given the training on knowing the differences, and the experienced players that come in would be there to assist in them knowing the difference.

There will be situations where they're tought how to suprise attack, and there would be situtations where they're hit with a suprise attack (unknowingly)

So again, the training program would take them through all aspects of Eve. This way they know what they should and shouldn't do on the real server, instead of being on the real server and learning the hard way...Which is what leads to most of them quiting.


How is it even possible to train people for that?

How do you know what leads to 'most of them' quitting?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-11-07 18:23:33 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:

Except, because you've been holding their hands all the way through, the second they get into the real game and get scammed, ganked, robbed, ransomed and all the other fun stuff eve players do, they'll quit anyway.


Again, everything you just mentioned is an aspect of Eve. These are all things that will be tought in the training grounds.
Read my last two posts on training with ganking, gate camps, baiting, and the difference between high, low, null, and wh space.

Quote:
Would this be optional? If I went and made an alt account, would it have to sit through a month of being totally useless? What about if I recruit someone to eve who wants to come fly with me and suicide rifters into everything ever? Would they have to wait a month? Why?


I'll quote myself for this one, since i guess you missed it.
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

If you're simply creating an alt character, then you have the option to skip the training and jump straight into the game, but the amount of awarded skill points is based off the amount of time you spent training.

This would apply really to anyone who wishes to skip the training program, but for new players that you just brought in, I'd still suggest to them to run through the training program so they'd better understand what it is they're doing.

Quote:
What's all this about letting them fly titans? How would that work? How do you expect people to respond when you take away all the stuff you gave them in the newbie zone and tell them they can't have it for a year or three?


again, allowing them to fly these ships allows them to know what it's like to fly the high end ships. Flying these ships is part of eve, so knowing what it is to fly one should be involved in the training.
Just because they won't have one right when they come out of training doesn't mean the experience won't give them a goal to attain. Like I said, I didn't know anything about high end ships until later on in my Eve life. Once I scanned out that golem and saw what it could do, I fell in love and that became my goal. had I been given the experience to fly one, and an understanding of how to fly and fit one, then I would have been in it long before I ever was.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#9 - 2011-11-07 18:25:31 UTC
I don't feel strongly for or against this idea.

So having abstained from having this register on an emotional level, I'll give it a +1.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-11-07 18:28:34 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:

How is it even possible to train people for that?


Again, training for this aspect of eve is what would require the older players to volunteer to get involved.
Training a player in this aspect of eve isn't that hard as long as you have someone there to do the baiting, camping, suprise attacks and whatever else. However, it would also require a layer of npc involvement, just for the experience of what it would be like to have other players in the situtation as well.

Quote:
How do you know what leads to 'most of them' quitting?

it's a guess. Better to train a player in all aspects of the game that could lead to them quiting than to throw them in the fire and basically make them quit.

If the player is quiting because of something that the training grounds can't solve, well, there's no reason to keep that as a reason not to train other players.
Zircon Dasher
#11 - 2011-11-07 18:32:37 UTC
That was a lot of typing just to say:

EVE: Arcade Mode
Me WANTZ!

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#12 - 2011-11-07 18:35:29 UTC
No.

First off, it totally breaks immersion, which is a particularly big deal for new players.

Second, a month is a very long time to be in Internet Spaceship School. New players want to be making isk and flying cruisers, not doing lessons which won't apply to their real EVE experience for several months, if not years, if not ever.

Your podling nursery is probably the easiest way to bore every noob to death before they even need to break out the climbing gear.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-11-07 18:36:31 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
That was a lot of typing just to say:

EVE: Arcade Mode
Me WANTZ!



lol

Again though, it's for a limited amount of time.. It might be arcade mode, but at least you come out of training with some experience.

So while you might have enjoyed flying several different ship types, or you might have enjoyed the power of the titan, well, now you have a goal, and with the training you've received, you know the quickest way to get there, and what it means to be there.
Zircon Dasher
#14 - 2011-11-07 18:40:06 UTC
Is it your belief that most/all new characters are actually new players?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-11-07 18:43:27 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
No.

First off, it totally breaks immersion, which is a particularly big deal for new players.

Second, a month is a very long time to be in Internet Spaceship School. New players want to be making isk and flying cruisers, not doing lessons which won't apply to their real EVE experience for several months, if not years, if not ever.

Your podling nursery is probably the easiest way to bore every noob to death before they even need to break out the climbing gear.


Like i said, the will be given skill points related to the amount of time they were in "internet spacship school", that will be applied in one of the 3 ways I listed.

So they would have an advantage over the new training program.

also, while it may break emersion, with a game like eve that might be a neccessity. There's such a huge difference from eve to any other game out there.

The break in immersion comes before they're actually emmersed in the game though.

Also, selecting a race, and having no experience with what pertains to being that race, then being an adult character in a world to which you are a huge part of, yet having to knowledge of the world, is a bit out of immersion as well.

If you want it to be completely immersive, than you should start as a child character and be forced through schooling to learn these things long before you ever become a pilot, which means several years of education in history, eve math, eve ships, and whatever else.

At least with my method the schooling is only 1 month.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-11-07 18:44:31 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Is it your belief that most/all new characters are actually new players?


Nope, which is why part of the post was that players have the option to opt out of the training program and get straight into the game.

Seriously, is no one reading the entire post?
Zircon Dasher
#17 - 2011-11-07 19:21:31 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

Again though, it's for a limited amount of time.. It might be arcade mode, but at least you come out of training with some experience.

So while you might have enjoyed flying several different ship types, or you might have enjoyed the power of the titan, well, now you have a goal, and with the training you've received, you know the quickest way to get there, and what it means to be there.


Most non-new players either know the basics (ship fitting, efficient training programs, ship use philosophy) or are aware of the 3rd party resources where they can find such info (corp/alliance, eve-o forums/enthusiast forums, EVEmon, etc).

So given that you do not think most new characters are new players, then the "experience" you talk about is learning to fly a new ship without the hassles normally found in such an endeavor on TQ?

In other words SISI without having to actually skill up on TQ and all while having the ability to transfer ISK/Items/resources (since said noob-zone is on TQ).


And you dont see how there might be problems?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2011-11-07 19:40:41 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

Again though, it's for a limited amount of time.. It might be arcade mode, but at least you come out of training with some experience.

So while you might have enjoyed flying several different ship types, or you might have enjoyed the power of the titan, well, now you have a goal, and with the training you've received, you know the quickest way to get there, and what it means to be there.


Most non-new players either know the basics (ship fitting, efficient training programs, ship use philosophy) or are aware of the 3rd party resources where they can find such info (corp/alliance, eve-o forums/enthusiast forums, EVEmon, etc).

So given that you do not think most new characters are new players, then the "experience" you talk about is learning to fly a new ship without the hassles normally found in such an endeavor on TQ?

In other words SISI without having to actually skill up on TQ and all while having the ability to transfer ISK/Items/resources (since said noob-zone is on TQ).


And you dont see how there might be problems?


All players have the option to opt out of the training. So if you just recruited a buddy, but you don't want him to go through the training, then he can skip it, or you can skip it with any alt characters/accounts. That, and you might be able to volunteer to go into the rookie training for a month and actually help him train by tieing yourself to him, which makes you his assistant/trainer/enemy in the specific training process he's in.

No, the training is not about the hassles normally found when training or knowing how to fly and fit a ship. However, it's a matter of understanding the differences in ships and how they fit and fly. In other words, you won't be trying to fit an armor tank to a shield ship or visa versa. They'll also have an understanding of the benefits and downfalls of different weapon types and modules. So it's not about the hassles, it's simply about knowing what goes with what.

While the player may not have to train skills during the training process, they will still be shown the skills and how they effect themselves and their ships. Once the mission is completed the skills, ships, and modules are removed from the player and they're given the next task, and a different ship and skill set.
Perhaps the game can even show them the difference in effectiveness between the skill being lvl 1 and the skill being lvl 4. While everyone knows there's a difference, and we older players know that it's a huge diffference, a rookie doesn't realize things like this, so they'll train a bunch of skills to lvl 1 and think that it's sufficient enough to fly that Raven into a lvl 4 mission. So this would help them so see and realize that it's better to train most skills to at least level 4 when it comes to using that specific skill in order to accomplish a new task.

Also, none of the isk, assets, and skills are transfered over to the TQ server.
Well, if they apply the skills attained from the month duration to ships and modules related to the race the player chose, than perhaps the server could drop them in a station with a ship and modules able to relate to the skills they were given, such as a frig with related t1 modules, or something along that lines.
Since TQ wouldn't be taking them through the normal training missions where they would attain new skill books and new ships for free, than perhaps giving them something when they leave would be fair.

So, they wouldn't be able to transfer isk/items/recources. They would just be given skills and ship/ships to start with related somewhat to what they attain for free in game to begin with.

That sounds pretty fair to me since they only get what they would have gotten free anyway.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2011-11-07 19:46:05 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:

How is it even possible to train people for that?


Again, training for this aspect of eve is what would require the older players to volunteer to get involved.
Training a player in this aspect of eve isn't that hard as long as you have someone there to do the baiting, camping, suprise attacks and whatever else. However, it would also require a layer of npc involvement, just for the experience of what it would be like to have other players in the situtation as well.

Quote:
How do you know what leads to 'most of them' quitting?

it's a guess. Better to train a player in all aspects of the game that could lead to them quiting than to throw them in the fire and basically make them quit.

If the player is quiting because of something that the training grounds can't solve, well, there's no reason to keep that as a reason not to train other players.


But the people you get to come help with this thing aren't going to be anything like as good at scamming, camping, ganking, corp theft etc etc etc as the people who do those things all the time, so when joe rifter goes from newbie school to jumping into a 50 man EC- camp, thinking he'll be safe because of what he learnt, and dies in a fire when everything is totally different, how did the training help at all? If you have a guy who's been playing the actual game for a month, and a guy who's coming out of newbie school, who do you think is going to be better at the game?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2011-11-07 20:21:38 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:

But the people you get to come help with this thing aren't going to be anything like as good at scamming, camping, ganking, corp theft etc etc etc as the people who do those things all the time, so when joe rifter goes from newbie school to jumping into a 50 man EC- camp, thinking he'll be safe because of what he learnt, and dies in a fire when everything is totally different, how did the training help at all? If you have a guy who's been playing the actual game for a month, and a guy who's coming out of newbie school, who do you think is going to be better at the game?


You're correct in saying that the experienced player probably won't be the high end pvp players of eve, thus reducing the effective experience the noob player receives, it's still better than no experience at all be being thrown straight into eve.

At least they'll get e feel for it and lose ships and pods with no real loss to themselves, where as the players experiencing this first hand in TQ are learning at a loss, which is a major disadvantage. Now, had they had a little understand, even if not from high end pvp players, they'll still be better off learning this in here, as compared to in TQ.

Now, the players coming into the training grounds will have the assistance of npcs designed to do specific tasks when it comes to baits, wars, gate camps etc., so they'll feel the experience of a 50 man EC-camp in some relation to how it would happen in TQ.

Also, being able to go back in and be an assistant could also be a training course for those said older players. So perhaps they'll get the opportunity to learn some new skills they didn't know as well. So it's a training course all around.

Now, as far as who would be better, a rookie from pilot school, or a month old players who's experienced TQ first hand?

Well, I'd have to say the one coming from the training camp would be better off.

Reasons why are

A 1 month old rookie may have experienced real camps, ganks, baits, and wars, but he probably won't have any understanding of the ships he's flying or will be flying. So he won't know how to get better at missions, mining, pvp, etc. without more prolonged experience in TQ.
Which for some players can be several months if not years before they fully understand the differences and how to adjust to them, expecially if they're not involved in a corp, and they'll only get the training related to the type of corp to which they're involved in. So if they're in a pvp corp they'll learn pvp, but won't understand missions and mining, if they're in a mining corp, the won't understand missions, and pvp, if they're in a missioning corp they wont' understand mining and pvp.

However, the player coming from the pilot school will at least have some understanding of the differences and what skills relate to them.

Not to mention, that 1 month old on TQ, if they haven't experienced several aspects of the game, then they really have no sense of progression, nor how to better themselves.

A rookie from the training camp would have that sense of progression because they've seen the ships, and experienced what they can do, giving them all the more reason to get there on TQ.

When I was a noob it took me quite a while to get a grasp on eve. I had no idea what I needed to train to become better at what I did. I had no idea what ships i could progress towards. Hell, I didn't even know how to use agents, how they related to the game, what they affected, nore what I got from them.

So for the first while of my life, I spent it mining my ass off.

Hell, the first time I got baited at 2 weeks old, I lost like 4 ships from the same guy.

One from taking the can, one from thinking I was ok after he killed me and I went back, another from trying to fight back, and yet another from him catching me at the station trying to leave the system.
only after that did I learn about the aggression timer and what it actually meant.
That doesn't include the ships that I lost not knowing about suicide ganks, the dangers of low sec, griefing in missions, and wardecs.

So if you're asking me if I would have been better off after a month of all that crap, or if I would have been better off a month after going through a training camp?

Well, lets see... I wouldn't have lost so many ships to things that I would have learned about in a training camp. I wouldn't have spent several months just mining cause I didn't know what else to do or how to do it. I wouldn't have waisted so many skills on turrets and gallente ships cause I would have known that I preferred caldari. i would have been in the hulk, orca, golem, stealth bomber and whatever else a lot sooner cause I would have had a better understanding of the path to get there. I wouldn't have lost ships in missions thinking the fit was sufficient cause it was a bs. Missions wouldnt' have took me as long cause I would have better understood skills and how they effected my effective dps. I wouldn't have waisted isk on ships and skills I didn't need, and I wouldn't have waisted so much time not training skills cause I didn't know what to train.

So yeah

To be honest I would have been better off with one month of a pilot training course like this than i was with 6 months if not more of TQ experience.

Yes, there would be a major difference between rounded experience from a training ground, and random experiences learned in game that only tought me "dont' do that".

I would have rather found out about the "don't do that" and at least known somewhat about skills and ships as compared to getting the "don't do that" and still having no idea about everything else as well like I went through.
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