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Noob Training....Avoid The Cliff..
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Velicitia
XS Tech
#21 - 2011-11-07 21:14:41 UTC
personally, I think they should go back to the old tutorials.

Tutorial 1:
This is a gun, you target ships, and shoot them with it.

Tutorial 2:
This is a Mining Laser, you target rocks and shoot them with it.

Tutorial 3:
"Hey, why did these guys sitting at this gate in this 0.4 system that I just went into shoot me without getting CONCORDOKKEN?"

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#22 - 2011-11-08 04:59:44 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
personally, I think they should go back to the old tutorials.

Tutorial 1:
This is a gun, you target ships, and shoot them with it.

Tutorial 2:
This is a Mining Laser, you target rocks and shoot them with it.

Tutorial 3:
"Hey, why did these guys sitting at this gate in this 0.4 system that I just went into shoot me without getting CONCORDOKKEN?"


As if the "security warning, concord wont be able to protect you" message wasn't enough before they jumped in....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2011-11-08 06:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Katie Frost
I think that the tutorials definitely need a looking into and should at least try to provide the noob with some sense of what the game would be like when they venture out of the station. So this proposal does have merit.

However, keeping them in an incubator for a month is definitely overkill and exposing them to capital ships and every single aspect of the game is overzealous and I feel unrealistic, if not overwhelming and off-putting. Even players that have played this game for years probably do not have a full grasp of or interest in every aspect of EVE.

A happy medium I think would be to allow the noob to choose a race and then following a basic interface, noob zone and skill-training lecture opt for a profession (Trade, Mining, PvP, PvE) and receive specific tutorials in these sections. Suffice to say that should a nooblet choose so, he/she would be able to access training in all professions if they were willing to spend the time on the tutorials. The tutorials run until they are completed (i.e. like missions) and the noob would be able to leave the noob zone as soon as he/she feels ready to do so. I would also suggest that the noob is only provided tutorials in his/her race (i.e. Caldari: Shield/Missile; Amarr: Laser/Armor and so on), although a holistic understanding of weapons/tanks/damage types wouldn't go amiss.

I also don't really see the point in exposing new players to capital ships; BCs or maybe BS-size ships would be sufficient for a noob to learn to pilot and fit properly. After all, you don't want a nooblet thinking that you go out and solo in your Nyx (although this is a legit tactic) and knowledge of capital ships should be best gained from corporation and alliance members - we do want to promote some after-nursery learning and player interaction.

Anywho, certainly seems like an idea worth exploring - although to a significantly less extreme level in my opinion.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#24 - 2011-11-08 11:57:04 UTC
First off: TL;DR

Second off: Bring back "The Endless War" Mission set

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Velicitia
XS Tech
#25 - 2011-11-08 16:23:21 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
personally, I think they should go back to the old tutorials.

Tutorial 1:
This is a gun, you target ships, and shoot them with it.

Tutorial 2:
This is a Mining Laser, you target rocks and shoot them with it.

Tutorial 3:
"Hey, why did these guys sitting at this gate in this 0.4 system that I just went into shoot me without getting CONCORDOKKEN?"


As if the "security warning, concord wont be able to protect you" message wasn't enough before they jumped in....



yeah, I was trying to imply that they ignored the warning... Blink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2011-11-08 17:15:28 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:
I think that the tutorials definitely need a looking into and should at least try to provide the noob with some sense of what the game would be like when they venture out of the station. So this proposal does have merit.

However, keeping them in an incubator for a month is definitely overkill and exposing them to capital ships and every single aspect of the game is overzealous and I feel unrealistic, if not overwhelming and off-putting. Even players that have played this game for years probably do not have a full grasp of or interest in every aspect of EVE.

A happy medium I think would be to allow the noob to choose a race and then following a basic interface, noob zone and skill-training lecture opt for a profession (Trade, Mining, PvP, PvE) and receive specific tutorials in these sections. Suffice to say that should a nooblet choose so, he/she would be able to access training in all professions if they were willing to spend the time on the tutorials. The tutorials run until they are completed (i.e. like missions) and the noob would be able to leave the noob zone as soon as he/she feels ready to do so. I would also suggest that the noob is only provided tutorials in his/her race (i.e. Caldari: Shield/Missile; Amarr: Laser/Armor and so on), although a holistic understanding of weapons/tanks/damage types wouldn't go amiss.

I also don't really see the point in exposing new players to capital ships; BCs or maybe BS-size ships would be sufficient for a noob to learn to pilot and fit properly. After all, you don't want a nooblet thinking that you go out and solo in your Nyx (although this is a legit tactic) and knowledge of capital ships should be best gained from corporation and alliance members - we do want to promote some after-nursery learning and player interaction.

Anywho, certainly seems like an idea worth exploring - although to a significantly less extreme level in my opinion.



The reasoning behind the training before choosing a race is so they have experienced some of what each race has to offer, that way they can properly choose which race they want to be.
The beginner missions when starting will give you free skills and ships, but only related to which race you are.
However, being completely new to eve means you have no idea what each race does have to offer.
Had I known that I was gonna prefer missiles before I created my character than I would have gone caldari and I wouldn't have spent so much sp on turrets and gallente ships that I don't use...EVER...

The point of exposing noobs to capital ships is just for them to see top tier ships and how they react. Most noob players won't even know about t2 ships or capitals until they're a good way into their life. Not having seen these ships means they won't have the option to set that ship as a direct goal.

An experienced player greating an alt will know exactly what capital they wanna train that character for, and can dramatically cut down on the amount of waisted training time, thus putting themselves into that capital much quicker.
The noobs should have that same option, and allowing them to experience those ships first hand is what sets their mind to it.

Either way you go about it, the point still is that the current training system in eve is lacking at best.

The learning cliff in Eve is one of 4 reasons a player quits eve.

1) learning cliff
2) griefing
3) just not into it
4) Take too long to get anything done in eve


We can at least help with number 1, and give them knowledge on number 2 before they ever actually get into the game.

Right now the current training system in Eve not only leaves the noobs still wondering WTF is going on, but it also in itself is complicated to understand as a noob. It doesn't explain itself very well at all.

So it's gotta be fixed, and maybe that will help cut back on the amount of noobs that quit.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#27 - 2011-11-08 17:38:16 UTC
1. There are ~300k players who survived the learning cliff.
2. "Griefing" is petitionable. However, what is considered "greifing" in EVE is a little different than in other games.
3. meh, if you don't like it ... you don't like it
4. patience is a virtue.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-11-15 07:13:13 UTC
I would also like to suggest making this an option for older players to go in and get "re-trained".

There are several players in Eve that still have little knowledge on at least one apsect of Eve.

Hell, I would probably go to learn PI, more on pvp, INCURSIONS FOR SURE, and production.

Apart from pvp, the rest of the things I have little to no knowledge in.

I'd like to take a GOOD COURSE on this that can't really be interfered with by other players, until I'm done training.(not SP training, just personal player training)

It would be helpful and probably beneficial to the players of Eve.

Hell, maybe several players will learn the aspects of something like production and the costs of t2 items will go down in Eve because more players understand how to produce. Which can lead to more t2 ships in pvp, which is what most of them are designed for, just most players don't like risking expensive ships in pvp where you can possibly lose the ship before you even load the environment you just warped into.
Taint
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-11-15 08:47:46 UTC
You agent shielded irl, so why should you be that here ?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2011-11-15 16:39:15 UTC
Taint wrote:
You agent shielded irl, so why should you be that here ?


huh?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#31 - 2011-11-15 17:43:46 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I would also like to suggest making this an option for older players to go in and get "re-trained".

There are several players in Eve that still have little knowledge on at least one apsect of Eve.

Hell, I would probably go to learn PI, more on pvp, INCURSIONS FOR SURE, and production.

Apart from pvp, the rest of the things I have little to no knowledge in.

I'd like to take a GOOD COURSE on this that can't really be interfered with by other players, until I'm done training.(not SP training, just personal player training)

It would be helpful and probably beneficial to the players of Eve.

Hell, maybe several players will learn the aspects of something like production and the costs of t2 items will go down in Eve because more players understand how to produce. Which can lead to more t2 ships in pvp, which is what most of them are designed for, just most players don't like risking expensive ships in pvp where you can possibly lose the ship before you even load the environment you just warped into.



PI --> check local needs, check material requirements to make those things, drop command centres on the relevant planets, build stuff, sell for profit.
PvP --> get into a corp with people who know how.
Incursions --> pimp mission ship. Sit in an incursion constellation for ideas on what to fit ... talk to your corpma... oh, right... you're in an NPC corp.
Production --> P.E. 5 ... take materials + blueprint, install in a slot .... wait for a few minutes / hours, get your new loot.

T2 items aren't limited by production. Invention and the raw material prices are what's keeping the T2 stuff "expensive".

If you've been in EVE for more than ... oh, I dunno ... 30 days ... you shouldn't need any additional "tutorial" fluff from CCP. go out and learn on your own ... you've already been given the basics.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-11-15 17:49:53 UTC
Why is everyone hating on the idea of new players and possibly old players getting more or better training than Eve currently provides?

At least you wouldn't have to sit down with every noob that comes into the game and explain to them pretty much EVERYTHING because the current training system leaves them with less knowledge than they came in with.

Once they're finished with current training all they've learned so far is that eve is a harsh place and it's gonna be a while till they figure anything out.

Hell, they don't even learn about tieing agents together based on corporation, let alone that running missions in caldari space for gallente can be a very bad idea at some point in time.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#33 - 2011-11-15 23:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Emperor Salazar
Jesus christ, Joe Risalo spam in this subforum gives me a headache.

Content: Eve has enough hand holding as it is. Learning the hard way is honestly, the best way to learn. Let the noobs learn.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#34 - 2011-11-17 21:40:26 UTC

You have some good thoughts, but I think your incubation of players is waaaayyy to much. And introducing them to caps and marauders.... no.... Those are specialized ships, requiring major investment, and bring nothing to the new player.... if you want to introduce the newb to something, introduce them to a Battlecruiser!!!!

I honestly haven't done the tutorials in a very long time, and I know they have been changed. So this is what I think should be in the tutorials, not really a reflection of whats in the tutorials:

Personally, I'd like the additional tutorial missions:
A series of griefer missions (Pilot must find a legit contract amongst NPC scam contracts, the pilot must can flip an NPC to kill it, etc),
A series of missions that REQUIRE teamwork. Make them excellent rewards (for a newb), so that newer pilots would be highly encouraged to do them.

Also, I think a big boon to new players is to create easy-to-train roles they can fulfill. I made most of my isk for PvPing by salvaging and looting belt wrecks..... Any activity that encourages a division of labor, where one does not require a high skillset, creates good niches for newbs to make a living with older friends. If the mini-professions were more tied into missions and anomalies, I think this would be a big boon for them.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2011-11-18 05:51:27 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

You have some good thoughts, but I think your incubation of players is waaaayyy to much. And introducing them to caps and marauders.... no.... Those are specialized ships, requiring major investment, and bring nothing to the new player.... if you want to introduce the newb to something, introduce them to a Battlecruiser!!!!

I honestly haven't done the tutorials in a very long time, and I know they have been changed. So this is what I think should be in the tutorials, not really a reflection of whats in the tutorials:

Personally, I'd like the additional tutorial missions:
A series of griefer missions (Pilot must find a legit contract amongst NPC scam contracts, the pilot must can flip an NPC to kill it, etc),
A series of missions that REQUIRE teamwork. Make them excellent rewards (for a newb), so that newer pilots would be highly encouraged to do them.

Also, I think a big boon to new players is to create easy-to-train roles they can fulfill. I made most of my isk for PvPing by salvaging and looting belt wrecks..... Any activity that encourages a division of labor, where one does not require a high skillset, creates good niches for newbs to make a living with older friends. If the mini-professions were more tied into missions and anomalies, I think this would be a big boon for them.



agreed
Pelador Rova
No Luck Corp
Kenshin Shogunate.
#36 - 2011-11-18 06:16:30 UTC
Eve is a social game, thus segragating people is counter productive.

Breaking immersion is counter productive.

Starting again after flight school, could be soul destroying especilly if all the effort is lost.

Why penalise someone who want to start straight away anyhow, just causing more sore points.

Learning from experienced players first hand can be more useful and strenghtens freindships, co-operative ties.

Do you want 1 month old players coming out of basic training saying, I know it all?

SiSi can be used to "try things", helping CCP and the Eve community in the process in theory. Maybe promote this?


On the other hand if I'm first in line for one of a team of paid flight instructor's jobs, full time, I could change my views very quickly.
Solidious Snake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2011-11-18 07:28:59 UTC
nothing in eve should be handed to anyone except maybe the basic of the basics.
hell, even knowledge of the game itself.
To me one of the fun factor is climbing the cliff.
Then you just want to hand all the knowledge to the noobs so they don't have to actually do it to know what its like.
sounds like one boring ass game to me.

Cardboard boxes, playboy magazines and bananas, are all you need to save the world.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#38 - 2011-11-18 08:17:52 UTC
Noob's life: day 1 -high sec

Can flipping

Scam

Gank

"WTF???"

Noob's life: day 2 -low sec

gate camp

gate camp

gate camp

gate camp

station camp

gate camp

station camp

gate camp

"WTF !!!"

Noob's life: day 3

"Do you wish to reactivate your paladin account?"

[ho yes, ho fücking yes!!]
_______________________________________________________________________


@OP

Do you seriously trust Eve community to take care of CCP business and improve the number of players?

You're just another Mitani alt searching how to destroy the game by any means, you troll !

Lol
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-11-18 10:25:52 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Why is everyone hating on the idea of new players and possibly old players getting more or better training than Eve currently provides?

At least you wouldn't have to sit down with every noob that comes into the game and explain to them pretty much EVERYTHING because the current training system leaves them with less knowledge than they came in with.


This, very much.

OP made a point. Newbies just don't know how does the whole thing works.

Once you're in a T2 fitted battleship, you've played for at least 5/6 months, you know how things works, and you can't understand that newbies have troubles fitting a little frigate or something.

EVE needs a true tutorial (I mean, keep the current tutorial up, but add some sort of powerpoint thing so it can show what items can you shield tank with, what is speed tank, what is angular velocity, what is a MWD, why is it important, what's lowsec, what are the aggression rules, stuff like that.

Did you ever trained a newbie ? Actually I did, and they really know NOTHING about how does things work, at first.

It's almost the same in Battlefield 3. The guy just entered the game, he runs to the chopper, he hit a tree in the mainbase because he don't know how to fly a chopper.
He get in a tank, he's driving through some forest, and a single "invisible" engineer will destroy his mighty warmachine.

If you don't teach basic things to newbies, that kind of thing will happen. And except if you're REALLY INTO the game, you will just leave thinking "Fsck it, that game is boring all you do is dieing all the time". And that's something CCP wants to avoid with EVE.

How better would be Battlefield 3 if all peoples learned to fly choppers and planes on a training map ? How better at repairing the team's assets engineers would be ?

A whole lot better.

Give peoples an interactive presentation of the game, like an ingame wiki, but with more "tutorial" in it than "wiki". It needs to be a TL;DR version of the real wiki, and it needs to be like a guide.

"Ok so, you're new here right ? You're a Caldari pilot. I need to tell you about your choice. Caldari pilots favor the use the missile launchers, but they can still use Hybrid turrets on some of their ships.

In EVE, there are different class of ships.

Frigates are nimble, fast ships. They will be plinking a battleship's armor, but they are rather cheap and newbie friendly.

Crusiers are bigger than frigates, they use medium sized guns. They will do more damage than frigates, they will also be able to soak up the damage more efficiently than a frigate, but it will be slower (Or a lot slower, if you put armor plates on a cruiser).

Battlecruisers are basically true combat platforms. They still use medium sized guns, but they do almost as much damage as a battleship, they are 2x more fragile than battleships but also 2x faster.

Battleships are flying bricks with huge guns. Don't expect them to break the sound barrier, but they will sure deliver ammunition right in the enemy's living room in 1400mm packages. They are also 2x more solid than battlecruisers, 4x more than cruisers. A battleship is not to be taken lightly.

So, here are the ships you're going to fly :

The Kestrel : (Blahblah about how it's the best starting missionning frigate)
The Merlin : (Blahblah if you want turrets and all)
The Cormorant : (Blahblah it's a destroyer with guns)
The Caracal : (It does that and that just fine, but not that)
The Moa : (Blah about how it's a turret ship)
The Ferox : (First battlecruiser, it does that and that and has turrets)
The Drake : (Second battlecruiser, it shoot missiles at long range)
The Raven : (It's the main caldari battleship, it does that and that), same for the scorpion and the Rokh.

Help the newbie to choose the ship he wants to fly, then help him so he can earn the money he needs to buy the ship he wants to fly, then help him so he train the right skills and not the useless ones...

The more you help newbies, the better for everyone (Except those who bash on newbies, of course).
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