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New dev blog: Starbase happy fun time

First post First post
Author
Crexa
Ion Industrials
#61 - 2011-11-07 15:57:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Crexa
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
i hate your homogenous forceful solution to this stuff.

you could of made fuel blocks do everything the PI mats do and left the ice parts just the way they are and some folks would of still benefited from the way the consumption formula's worked on HW and LO. but, now everyone has to use the same amount of ice no matter. what

its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?




I somewhat agree with you. The homogenous nature of it all seems bad. Not sure I like the all fuel takes same amount of ingredients. Seems one step away from one fuel type period.

Oh, and btw,

I'm stealing your last line!

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"

Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#62 - 2011-11-07 15:58:42 UTC
After reading the replies here, I agree that Faction Towers seem as if they are still slightly shafted here.

If CCP can lengthen the cycle time or buff them otherwise, I think it's needed. Or add new bonuses, such as more pg or cpu or shields/amor etc.

Just holding more fuel is not as nice.

Otherwise looks great overall!
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2011-11-07 16:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Neo Agricola
Entity wrote:
Quote:
....


NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

The benefit of faction towers is two-fold:
- Longer run time before refuel
- Lower cost per period

You're basically removing the cost benefit.


Better solution:
Instead of producing 4 fuel blocks per batch, produce like 100 or some other larger quantity per batch (and obviously make the volume per block lower and the blocks consumed/cycle higher). then you can apply fuel reduction bonuses as per usual and everyone will be happy.

Again, a lot of people, including me, bought a faction tower to save fuel cost, which is not insignificant. Removing that makes the investment pointless if all it does is give more time between refuels, which with this change would be of questionable value since it will be much easier.

THIS


Jack Dant wrote:
On a first calculation, I think the build times for fuel blocks are a bit too high. At 10 minutes/run, thats over a day for each week of fuel for a large tower. I guess you are counting on a mini-industry to arise for this.


THIS!

Large Pos = 4 Block /H = (4*24=) 96 Blocks a day * 2,5 min each = 240 min (/60=) = 4 H for 1 POS. I have to maintain 10 Poses, so I have to produce 40 h every day for a day of Fuel ;-)
That will change my Workload from 1 day a Week running Jita buy Orders + Transport + fuelling to producing Fuel every day + Transport + Fueling. That makes my eve live easier, because I dont have to think about "What should I do with all my spare time in Eve?"


I think:

100 pc/h small
200 pc/h med
300 pc/h large

with 0.5 m^3 would be nicer. And please for the sake of exploding spaceships, change the BPO to 1.000 - 2.000 units per 10 min. So I don't have to use every production Slot I have for POS-fueling...

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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#64 - 2011-11-07 16:00:21 UTC
Approximate POS fuel costs per 30 days right now:

Amarr: 136 / 213 / 366
Caldari: 140 / 220 / 381
Gallente: 176 / 291 / 523
Minmatar: 139 / 217 / 375

Estimated costs after the fuel pellets get introduced:

Amarr: 87 / 171 / 341
Caldari: 90 / 178 / 354
Gallente: 122 / 241 / 480
Minmatar: 89 / 175 / 348
Virilus Vigoro
Atra Mortis Industries
#65 - 2011-11-07 16:01:31 UTC
This is an excellent first step in fixing all of the many things wrong with starbases. I really can't find anything about this proposal that I don't like. I do have a request for the summer. Can we next tackle the way they look and act?

It was proposed and sketched out for you years ago to make the control tower be a core that other modules physically attach to and that is dockable by a single ship (or perhaps a small number of multiple ships for medium and large towers). The current configuration of having modules floating in space next to this gigantic tower never made a lot of sense to me compared to physically joining them together for power and computing connections. With Incarna now a reality, a starbase could even be a small location you and your friends can walk around inside of, meet up in, etc.
Virilus Vigoro
Atra Mortis Industries
#66 - 2011-11-07 16:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Virilus Vigoro
Sorry for the double post - I got the "We Got Ganked" page. Cute.
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#67 - 2011-11-07 16:03:10 UTC
Quote:
The one downside of this big-blocks approach is that it's impossible to give faction towers a fuel consumption bonus any more (you can't consume 2/3 of a block). We talked to some large-scale starbase operators about this, and they told us that the main bonus of faction towers for them is actually that they last longer between fuel cycles. To try and compensate for the increased running costs, we've taken the above bay size increases and added +25% bay size on top of that for the "tier 1" faction towers, and +50% bay size for the "tier 2" ones. We're hoping people will find that a satisfactory tradeoff, but we're listening for further feedback on this change.


That is because for large-scale operations the cost isn't the issue, but logistics are.
For all the people operating just one or two towers (be it for research, invention, reverse engineering, ......) will care about the cost and barely about going 3-5 jumps to the nearest hub every 45 days instead of 30. For Industrial applications you already have to haul quite a lot of stuff around, that bit of fuel hauling doesn't really make a difference. Reducing the tower operation cost does make a difference though.

I personally don't operate any faction towers at the moment (but have in the past). It would be worth quite a bit of extra ISK though as an investment, after all you can get that back by re-selling it once you're done with it as long as nobody blows the thing up.

Have you considered increasing the fuel cycle time (75 minutes instead of 60 or something) as the bonus instead of requiring less fuel units? Or would that be too hard to implement?
Callic Veratar
#68 - 2011-11-07 16:03:45 UTC
Neo Agricola wrote:
Large Pos = 4 Block /H = (4*24=) 96 Blocks a day * 2,5 min each = 240 min (/60=) = 4 H for 1 POS. I have to maintain 10 Poses, so I have to produce 40 h every day for a day of Fuel ;-)
That will change my Workload from 1 day a Week running Jita buy Orders + Transport + fuelling to producing Fuel every day + Transport + Fueling. That makes my eve live easier, because I dont have to think about "What should I do with all my spare time in Eve?"


So, before you bought all the fuel items and use them in your starbases. Why would you still buy the pieces instead of just buying blocks directly? Then it goes from 8-10 buy orders down to 1 with no manufacturing time.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#69 - 2011-11-07 16:03:50 UTC
Friedward Schnorch wrote:
2 questions.

"We reduced effective robotics consumption on medium and small towers because it was judged to be better than increasing the consumption on large towers"

You actually doubled the consumption for medium and quadrupled it for large towers. Currently all towers just use 1 robotics, no matter which size.

And will faction towers be available again? I might be wrong, but AFAIK they were removed them from loot tables about 2-3 years ago.


Read that again... Large towers still use 1/hr, medium towers effectively consume 0.5 robotics/hr and small towers consume 0.25 robotics/hr.
Jessica Issier
#70 - 2011-11-07 16:04:29 UTC
If only I'd waited a little longer to upgrade to a bigger POS

Been sitting here for the last three hours unanchoring and offlining my POS Lol

holding pattern58
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#71 - 2011-11-07 16:04:31 UTC
Couple of thoughts-

Please please seed the BPOs for the fuel blocks well in advance of the change, to get stocks in the market. Having a couple days of every tower offline would be amusing, but a bit of a pain for most.

The day of the switchover to fuel blocks, what happens to the fuel already in the tower, where does it go? And would it be possible to prestock towers with say, 1 day of fuel blocks at DT - many of the smaller corps do not have players that can login right after downtime, and the thought of 8 offline large towers in some of the wormholes.....could be potentially a mess(although great fun for people looking to loot and pillage random towers)

.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#72 - 2011-11-07 16:04:36 UTC
OK, this is nice! Real nice! Especially the ability to have both fuels in the starbases for the transition...

... so why the hell can't you come up with a transitory plan for the PI switch instead of crippling PI by removing all the customs offices before there are ample PCOs available to replace them?! C'mon man! This is PROOF you're fully capable of easing things into play without crushing the community... Please, for the love of the gods, consider a transitional approach with the PI switch!

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#73 - 2011-11-07 16:04:38 UTC
Iece Quaan wrote:
Now, is that for a me0 bpo? With no skills? Cause I'm wondering if researching the bpo for ME, and having high PE, makes it so that you're expanding the inputs in terms of volume, rather than compressing.


I think it's safe to assume these will be wastage 0 BPOs, just like control towers and other PI-built structures. That, of course, won't keep people from wasting time in ME research.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Myxx
The Scope
#74 - 2011-11-07 16:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
Grayscale is my new favorite dev.

Sorry Abraxas and Dropbear.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2011-11-07 16:06:51 UTC
"We stuck with small numbers of blocks and no fuel use bonus on faction towers because dealing with small numbers of blocks makes starbases in general easier to use"

You're replacing eight fuel types with one, this new system is inherently simpler. I don't think using smaller numbers is worth the cost of fuel granularity. EVE players deal with numbers bigger than two digits all the time, it is a little patronising to implement changes for this reason.

Change the BPO to yield 50 or 100 fuel blocks, then adjust block volume and fuel use accordingly. This will allow for faction towers to get their usage bonuses. It would also accomodate the soverignty fuel bonus you seem to have forgotten about / glossed over.
Corelin
The Fancy Hats Corporation
#76 - 2011-11-07 16:07:39 UTC
Better faction tower bonus (and possibly simpler) Longer fuel cycle. Instead of consuming fuel once an hour it consumes fuel once every 80 minutes?
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#77 - 2011-11-07 16:07:46 UTC
Jenn Makanen wrote:
Any waste factor on the blueprints? PE still going to affect them?

edit: bah. quick post needs a receive notifications checkbox.


ME/PE could be an interesting dynamic, especially if the batch size is changed to 100 pellets per batch.

Definitely decrease the pellet size by 10x and increase the consumption by 10x. The math stays easy, but it allows the faction towers to get a 10% reduction in pellet consumption. Or just go 100x smaller and boost consumption by 100x - which would allow for better granularity.
Sinq Arnolles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2011-11-07 16:08:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinq Arnolles
I have to say I hate this idea.

Currently I fuel pos's to 18 days and we have about 40 with the current system I can carry 18 days of fuel for 2 large pos's and a medium at a time in my rorqual that has about ~150k m3. This will only let me carry a large and a medium at once.

So thanks for making me use more jump fuel, spend allot more time having to fuel the damn things and il have to train up another manufacturing alt just to keep up with building the damn fuel blocks. Yeah thanks.
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#79 - 2011-11-07 16:08:24 UTC
any thoughts in adding a way to "stack" or queue anchoring and onlining of pos modules? This would be a big time saver for the pilots involved on the same lines as changing pos fuel over to blocks.


Dalton Vanadis
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#80 - 2011-11-07 16:09:20 UTC
Virilus Vigoro wrote:
This is an excellent first step in fixing all of the many things wrong with starbases. I really can't find anything about this proposal that I don't like. I do have a request for the summer. Can we next tackle the way they look and act?

It was proposed and sketched out for you years ago to make the control tower be a core that other modules physically attach to and that is dockable by a single ship (or perhaps a small number of multiple ships for medium and large towers). The current configuration of having modules floating in space next to this gigantic tower never made a lot of sense to me compared to physically joining them together for power and computing connections. With Incarna now a reality, a starbase could even be a small location you and your friends can walk around inside of, meet up in, etc.


We're all hoping for possible sexiness here... The dead horse may yet live!

How they're going to do a rollout for that is certainly going to be a bit more interesting than this one, but I'm confident they'll figure out a solution after all the things they've been up to the last few weeks.