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I'd like to see tags4faction the way tags4sec works
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Zircon Dasher
#101 - 2013-06-15 21:12:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
...and everyone knows you can only do that once.
…which is plenty to get you out of trouble with the local faction so you can go pursue some new career.


Assuming that you did not use it years ago.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#102 - 2013-06-15 21:15:42 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
LOL. This is merely semantics and you know it.
No, it's mechanics.
The OP claims that game mechanics make things impossible for him, when they in fact do the opposite.

Iit's only his insistence on not learning the mechanics in question and blocking out everyone offering him advice that keeps him from doing anything. He made his choice and now thinks that his decisions are flaws in the game mechanics. He could solve his problem if he wanted to, but chooses not to or doesn't know how to, and instead chooses to ignore all avenues available.

…he even refuses to admit that these are all pretty bad choices.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-06-15 21:18:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
...and everyone knows you can only do that once.
…which is plenty to get you out of trouble with the local faction so you can go pursue some new career.

...OP does not sound like he's trying to change his career.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#104 - 2013-06-15 21:25:22 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
OP does not sound like he's trying to change his career.
Then he needs to accept the intended design of that career choice: he picks a side. The other side will not like him. It is as it should be.

…and it still doesn't mean he's not allowed to play with his friends or forced to do anything.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#105 - 2013-06-15 21:30:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
OP does not sound like he's trying to change his career.
Then he needs to accept the intended design of that career choice: he picks a side. The other side will not like him. It is as it should be.

…and it still doesn't mean he's not allowed to play with his friends or forced to do anything.


I know. I'm just saying that suggesting he use tags for faction doesn't help him, he's not trying to change his career. This piece of advice you offer is much more relevant.
Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#106 - 2013-06-15 21:35:41 UTC
I woulden't mind a more expedient way to repair faction. When I first started playing I shot up everything, and now two of my standings are terrible.

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#107 - 2013-06-15 21:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
I know. I'm just saying that suggesting he use tags for faction doesn't help him, he's not trying to change his career. This piece of advice you offer is much more relevant.

Well, sure. The problem is that he's going on as if the mechanic doesn't exist at all, which rather suggests not being familiar with the game mechanics — a problem that's further deepened by his apparent fondness for blocking people who are trying to explain things to him.

The other problem is his choice of activity (which he refuses to accept as a bad one, in spite of it apparently causing effects he's not fond of) — a problem that is not actually what he thinks it is since if he was simply running missions, the standings loss is entirely avoidable (again, a result of bad choices), and if it's a matter of doing FW, the standings loss is irrelevant since he could have +10 across the board and still be hunted for being an enemy of the state…

Either way, it's a matter of wilful ignorance and refusal to accept responsibility far more than of bad game mechanics.
Zircon Dasher
#108 - 2013-06-15 22:09:11 UTC
@Tippia and Smohq

TBH I am not interested in the OP on a literal basis.

The fact that it is *possible* to raise standings from -10 does not negate the fact that grinding missions (after the single use get out of jail free card) is worse than grinding sec status as it would be akin to making pvp'ers rat up sec status shooting 16 frigs/increase. All it does is effectively force people into long PVE grinds. The people who might "abuse" the tag system for financial gain already do so via alts (see this thread), so the only people getting punished are those people who want one character and do not want to spend the next month doing PVE just because they took part in game content years ago.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Zircon Dasher
#109 - 2013-06-15 22:14:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Tippia wrote:
the standings loss is entirely avoidable (again, a result of bad choices),
Either way, it's a matter of wilful ignorance and refusal to accept responsibility far more than of bad game mechanics.


The same could be said about sec standing. Many players, and CCP evidently, thought it was a bad mechanic. If the principle does not apply in this case I would be interested in hearing why not.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Kali Maat
PVP FAST
#110 - 2013-06-15 22:16:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kali Maat
the tags4sec work great.
tegs4standing would be a great.way to help people from corporation with different players from different origins align there standing in a more flexible and meaning full way then grinding missions. (wich is not entirely the most fun part of playing Eve by far.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#111 - 2013-06-15 22:26:12 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
The same could be said about sec standing. Many players, and CCP evidently, thought it was a bad mechanic.
Actually, no, the same thing was never said about sec status. It being a punishment for “bad” behaviour was always fully accepted. It was also never really seen as a bad choice.

I suppose what you're really referring to is the recover mechanic. The difference there is that sec status recover hasn't actually changed: it's still a lot of grinding that needs to be done. It has just been decoupled in time and space (and agency). Faction standing has had a quick out for yonks. Another difference is that grinding sec status back always was (and still is) much easier than faction standing — the latter being more of a long-term decision consequence — which would explain why the quick out was needed, but only available as a one shot.

The principle applies. It applies so hard that it existed long before it was transferred to sec status.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2013-06-15 22:27:10 UTC
When you make a decision to join Factional Warfare, you are no longer a Civilian and have become an active member of a Militia in an on-going war which is bound by different rules.

Doesn't matter if you have positive standing with the Enemy Factions and haven't shot any opposing ships. You will still be attacked by their defending forces if you enter their space simply due to being a member of a Militia that has declared open war..

That's it. Decisions have consequences. However, with a little bit of time those consequences can be amended by other decisions.

As a Civilian, you can quickly repair negative Faction standings within a few weeks. Doesn't matter if you've spent years acquiring -10.00 Faction standing, it can still be repaired rather quickly through various methods. If you had actually researched 'The Plan', you'd know that countless of New Eden Citizens have quickly and easily repaired their negative Faction standings.

If you want to do it, you can do everything in Eve. You just have to plan accordingly and as in real life, it takes time to implement.


DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#113 - 2013-06-15 22:56:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
When you make a decision to join Factional Warfare, you are no longer a Civilian and have become an active member of a Militia in an on-going war which is bound by different rules.

Doesn't matter if you have positive standing with the Enemy Factions and haven't shot any opposing ships. You will still be attacked by their defending forces if you enter their space simply due to being a member of a Militia that has declared open war..

That's it. Decisions have consequences. However, with a little bit of time those consequences can be amended by other decisions.

As a Civilian, you can quickly repair negative Faction standings within a few weeks. Doesn't matter if you've spent years acquiring -10.00 Faction standing, it can still be repaired rather quickly through various methods. If you had actually researched 'The Plan', you'd know that countless of New Eden Citizens have quickly and easily repaired their negative Faction standings.

If you want to do it, you can do everything in Eve. You just have to plan accordingly and as in real life, it takes time to implement.


DMC


i did read through the plan, it is flawed as it lets players with high trained characters play level one missions for hours wich are extremly boring for them, the faction standing system needs a revamp, it is outdated and does not fit into the game anymore, just keeping it because it always was like that is the worst argument, the game and playstyle did change a lot, therefore that area needs to be adjusted. tags4faction would offer both, consequences for what you do and a more flexible way to fix it. thats the future!

yes you can do everything in eve, you can even change outdated mechanics like in real life, adapt and evolve, thats what life is about, not keeping everything the same forever, if that would be life then we still would jump on trees and eat bananas the whole day

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#114 - 2013-06-15 23:18:10 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:


i did read through the plan, it is flawed as it lets players with high trained characters play level one missions for hours wich are extremly boring for them, the faction standing system needs a revamp, it is outdated and does not fit into the game anymore, just keeping it because it always was like that is the worst argument, the game and playstyle did change a lot, therefore that area needs to be adjusted.


Stop shooting at enemy navies, then. Why is this so hard to understand? If you want to be a trader/hauler in all four quadrants, you can't shoot the navies of those four quadrants. If you want to participate in fw or take missions that shoot other navies, you should not be surprised when those same navies want to shoot you. Shooting other navies and having them welcome you into their space are kinda' opposites of each other.


It's really your choice. Shoot one or more navy factions on a regular basis or be welcomed in all four quadrants. I fail to see how this is a bad mechanic. You shot at their ships. They don't like that, nor should they. They want to shoot you for it and they should. You want an easy way to switch back and forth. I say that is against the idea of having anything you do mean something in this game.

I love that this game takes effort and brainpower and planning. I hope you learn to appreciate that.




I can see how it is going, though, OP. You are not looking for answers or reasons why, you're looking to change the mechanics so it is easier for you. Who needs long-term consequences, eh? Just a slap on the wrist? hmph. I stay here because there is no 'easy mode'.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#115 - 2013-06-15 23:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:


i did read through the plan, it is flawed as it lets players with high trained characters play level one missions for hours wich are extremly boring for them, the faction standing system needs a revamp, it is outdated and does not fit into the game anymore, just keeping it because it always was like that is the worst argument, the game and playstyle did change a lot, therefore that area needs to be adjusted.


Stop shooting at enemy navies, then. Why is this so hard to understand? If you want to be a trader/hauler in all four quadrants, you can't shoot the navies of those four quadrants. If you want to participate in fw or take missions that shoot other navies, you should not be surprised when those same navies want to shoot you. Shooting other navies and having them welcome you into their space are kinda' opposites of each other.


It's really your choice. Shoot one or more navy factions on a regular basis or be welcomed in all four quadrants. I fail to see how this is a bad mechanic. You shot at their ships. They don't like that, nor should they. They want to shoot you for it and they should. You want an easy way to switch back and forth. I say that is against the idea of having anything you do mean something in this game.

I love that this game takes effort and brainpower and planning. I hope you learn to appreciate that.




I can see how it is going, though, OP. You are not looking for answers or reasons why, you're looking to change the mechanics so it is easier for you. Who needs long-term consequences, eh? Just a slap on the wrist? hmph. I stay here because there is no 'easy mode'.


I don't say it needs to be easy the tags4sec is also not easy, i just do not want to grind level 1 missions because i did some faction warfare, thats all... you guys are way to resistant, the faction repair plan shows that a lot of players have the same issue, therefore a change is needed

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2013-06-15 23:25:28 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:


i did read through the plan, it is flawed as it lets players with high trained characters play level one missions for hours wich are extremly boring for them, the faction standing system needs a revamp, it is outdated and does not fit into the game anymore, just keeping it because it always was like that is the worst argument, the game and playstyle did change a lot, therefore that area needs to be adjusted.

I'm sorry, obviously you don't understand the mechanics or the math regarding how standings work. Maybe this will enlighten you - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Standings_mechanics

Doesn't matter about the skill level of characters. All characters are confined to level 1 Agents when they drop below -2.00 Faction standing, plain and simple. That's the rules of the game.

'The Plan' is not flawed nor is it outdated. In fact, it's only a few years old and it doesn't have to be followed to the letter. It can be customized to fit each players specific situation.

Anyway, I don't need to defend 'The Plan'. It has proven itself to be very effective which has been confirmed by the playerbase time and time again.

Good luck to you.



DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#117 - 2013-06-15 23:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:


i did read through the plan, it is flawed as it lets players with high trained characters play level one missions for hours wich are extremly boring for them, the faction standing system needs a revamp, it is outdated and does not fit into the game anymore, just keeping it because it always was like that is the worst argument, the game and playstyle did change a lot, therefore that area needs to be adjusted.

I'm sorry, obviously you don't understand the mechanics or the math regarding how standings work. Maybe this will enlighten you - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Standings_mechanics

Doesn't matter about the skill level of characters. All characters are confined to level 1 Agents when they drop below -2.00 Faction standing, plain and simple. That's the rules of the game.

'The Plan' is not flawed nor is it outdated. In fact, it's only a few years old and it doesn't have to be followed to the letter. It can be customized to fit each players specific situation.

Anyway, I don't need to defend 'The Plan'. It has proven itself to be very effective which has been confirmed by the playerbase time and time again.

Good luck to you.



DMC


but thats the point it does not make sense to play level 1 missions for hours if you have a high trained character, people don't want that, they want a different way to fix the standings, maybe a challanging way but not boring level 1 missions for hours

the plan just shows that the faction standing mechanic has issues for a lot of players, therefore it needs to be adjusted, anyway, it will happen if you want it or not

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Baldour Ngarr
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2013-06-15 23:31:44 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:

I don't say it needs to be easy the tags4sec is also not easy, i just do not want to grind level 1 missions because i did some faction warfare, thats all...



Alright, then. Don't. Problem solved.


Unless, of course, what you're really saying is "I should be able to do what I like without having to face any consequences." People will be resistant to that argument - and rightly so.
Zircon Dasher
#119 - 2013-06-15 23:34:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Zircon Dasher] The difference there is that sec status recover hasn't actually changed: it's still a lot of grinding that needs to be done. It has just been decoupled in time and space (and agency). Faction standing has had a quick out for yonks. Another difference is that grinding sec status back always was (and still is) much easier than faction standing — the latter being more of a long-term decision consequence — which would explain why the quick out was needed, but only available as a one shot.

The principle applies. It applies so hard that it existed long before it was transferred to sec status.


Hmm. I am still not clear on your argument.

Tags for faction standing would still require someone grinding but would enable the time/space/agential decoupling found in tags4sec. Since the amount of time necessary remains static all that really changes is the ability to purchase other people's time. What is wrong with that?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2013-06-15 23:35:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:

I don't say it needs to be easy the tags4sec is also not easy, i just do not want to grind level 1 missions because i did some faction warfare, thats all...



Alright, then. Don't. Problem solved.


Unless, of course, what you're really saying is "I should be able to do what I like without having to face any consequences." People will be resistant to that argument - and rightly so.


consequences are ok, but its not ok to have high trained characters play boring hours of level 1 missions again and again to fix standings, there needs to be another mechanic to fix it

I want to do everything in the game and the game needs to adjust to my skills, if i got a high trained character or a lot of ISK there should be a faster way to fix standings either with killing stronger targets or with a ISK payment for the tags

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm