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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

First post
Author
Raimo
Genos Occidere
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#121 - 2011-11-06 07:13:44 UTC
Just give Talos the drone bay and some CPU.
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#122 - 2011-11-06 08:07:27 UTC
At least the Oracle has tracking problems (even with tracking rigs fitted), when any propulsion mod is active, and even with base speed it is obvious that the tracking is affected.

For the Oracle, remove the cap usage per level and replace it with a tracking bonus. It should have the damage per level bonus and a tracking per level bonus.

Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#123 - 2011-11-06 11:01:16 UTC
For the sake of all the small children and fluffy animals in the world, please just make the talos/naga borderline overpowered, (more dps/fitting/speed) if nothing but to shake up the monotony. Oh and, chop that falloff bonus on the tornado down to size while you're at it.
Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#124 - 2011-11-06 12:07:36 UTC

Quote:
PVE - MISSIONS - there are a lot of rats it has trouble hitting specifically -


Quote:
Just give Talos the drone bay


Facepalm....

Guys, these ships are meant to be PvP / Demolition ships, and their natural enemies are Frigates. Not being able to hit Frigates or having little tank is a good thing.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#125 - 2011-11-06 13:20:34 UTC
NAGA-

Do away with Hybrids on this Missile Boat.

Instead of current stats-


The Naga is a Tier 3 Battlecruiser that sacrifices durability for the ability to fit Large (Battleship-grade) weapons.

Traits
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus Per Level:
• 10% decreased factor of signature radius for Torpedo's
• 10% bonus to Siege Missile Launchers rate of fire

Role Bonus:
• 40% reduction in the powergrid need of Siege Missile Launchers
• 60% reduction in the CPU need of Siege Missile Launchers


Not sure if the CPU reduction is enough, but a little more is needed!

Big smile Please Big smile
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#126 - 2011-11-06 13:32:15 UTC
Nope, if anything move the Naga completely to hybrids and fix them. Caldari have quite enough missile ships, we don't need any more. What we need is a competitive gun platform. I'm quite tired of getting pidgeon - holed to "oh look yet another Pve ship".
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#127 - 2011-11-06 13:40:58 UTC
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Nope, if anything move the Naga completely to hybrids and fix them. Caldari have quite enough missile ships, we don't need any more. What we need is a competitive gun platform. I'm quite tired of getting pidgeon - holed to "oh look yet another Pve ship".



Hey clueless. Hybirds suck before this patch and there going to suck just alittle bit less after the patch. Get the missile boat.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#128 - 2011-11-06 13:41:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Talos

This ship is Pre-Nerfed becouse Hybirds will still suck even after the Hybird changes.

How about you give use a fun ship at least based off Drones. Thoughs are at least always fun and are the most used Gallente ships. Ya mainly becouse Hybirds suck but at least drones are fun still.

Ideal time and feel free to tell me I'm crazy after you read it all and think about how it would work.


Talos

While not endowed with any High slot weapon systems though's guys over at Creo Dron have out done them selfs this time. They have learned how to fit the Carriers uniq drone hardwired subsystem routins onto a Battle Cruiser at the cost of any other weapon system. And pushed the envolope of what mite be considered safe with drone AI.

Developer: Creo Dron

Role Bonus: 99% reduction in warfare Link module CPU needs. Can use 1 Warfare Link module.

Battlecruiser Skill bonus: +25 Drone Bandwidth and +50 Drone Bay per level.
10% increase to drone hitpoints and damage dealt by drones per level.

Speical Weapon System Bonus: 99.7% Reduction in Drone Control Unit 1 module CPU and Powergrid needs.



6 high slots
5 med slots
6 low slots

Drone Bandwidth 125m3
Drone Bay 375m3

And what ever cpu/powergride is needed or fair same for the mid's and low's.

But I realy think 6 highs is just right. It lets you fit max dps with a warfare link or you have to start giving up warfare link and dps for other high slot mods and it also forces you to give up high slot mods for more drone range. i.e. if you want to snip with Senterys you have to start feeding drone link augmentors into high slots lowering the amound of dps you can do not counting the Omnidrectionals tracking links eating up mids.

Max level
Drone Bandwidth 250m3
Drone Bay 625m3

That will let you field 10 heavys or senterys. You can check EFT for the dps of a Dominx riged with 2x SDA is 538 for Garde 2's or double it for this ship at 1076. But keep in mind that's max dmg and drone rigs lower cpu so 2xSDA rigs pluse drone modes should turn you into a glass cannon.

And with out any SDA's your looking at around 450 dps or double it for this ship at 900.

I realy think the dps is on par with the other ships and one full flight of drones is 250m3 and it's your only weapon so the 625m3 drone bay is not that big and it still makes the loss of drones harmfull if it go's on to long or aoe dmg is cleaning the clock on your drones.

And the Cargo hold needs to be halved as you will need to carry no ammo but to make it fair we need to lower the amount of cap boosters in there.

Ok thats just a ruff ideal for a fun Teir 3 BC. Reather then the Pre-Nerfted Hybird ship thats comeing are way.

Edit

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#129 - 2011-11-06 13:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Phantomania
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Nope, if anything move the Naga completely to hybrids and fix them. Caldari have quite enough missile ships, we don't need any more. What we need is a competitive gun platform. I'm quite tired of getting pidgeon - holed to "oh look yet another Pve ship".



If you want Hybrids, train for the Talos! Roll

Why have 2x Hybrid Turret Tier3 BC's???
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#130 - 2011-11-06 13:55:51 UTC
Phantomania wrote:
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Nope, if anything move the Naga completely to hybrids and fix them. Caldari have quite enough missile ships, we don't need any more. What we need is a competitive gun platform. I'm quite tired of getting pidgeon - holed to "oh look yet another Pve ship".



If you want Hybrids, train for the Talos! Roll

Why have 2x Hybrid Turret Tier3 BC's???


Because there's no point in a missile BC with battleship missiles? It's much more likely for the hybrids to be fixed than for torpedoes (or cruise missiles) to be fixed. Plus, missiles are useless or less useful in most pvp scenarios than guns, especially when "long range" is involved. Just like the raven mostly isn't used (and hasn't been used) in pvp, that would be the end for a missile based Naga. Now, if CCP is willing to give the Naga full bonuses for both hybrids and missiles, then good! I'm all for it. But given the choice, hybrid is the way to go.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#131 - 2011-11-06 14:17:18 UTC
Hey people, just popping in to let you know that you're not left in the dark here, I'm following this thread closely and taking notes of some good points brought so far.

I'll give you a more detailed answer regarding the Naga/Talos tomorrow and will do my best to try to book some time next week to play test these ships more with you on Sisi.


Thanks for your time and feedback.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#132 - 2011-11-06 14:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Phantomania
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Phantomania wrote:
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Nope, if anything move the Naga completely to hybrids and fix them. Caldari have quite enough missile ships, we don't need any more. What we need is a competitive gun platform. I'm quite tired of getting pidgeon - holed to "oh look yet another Pve ship".



If you want Hybrids, train for the Talos! Roll

Why have 2x Hybrid Turret Tier3 BC's???


Because there's no point in a missile BC with battleship missiles? It's much more likely for the hybrids to be fixed than for torpedoes (or cruise missiles) to be fixed. Plus, missiles are useless or less useful in most pvp scenarios than guns, especially when "long range" is involved. Just like the raven mostly isn't used (and hasn't been used) in pvp, that would be the end for a missile based Naga. Now, if CCP is willing to give the Naga full bonuses for both hybrids and missiles, then good! I'm all for it. But given the choice, hybrid is the way to go.




Missiles don't need to be "Fixed" and who said the Tier3 BC's were meant for long range. I see these ships as much bigger Stealth Bombers, in-fire-out. Plus just cause you can't fit a raven for PvP doesn't mean they don't get used.

10x Torp Naga's warp to a member at 10km and throw a 70,000 - 80,000 Alpha at something, it will hurt.


BTW- I don't have any Gunnery Skills and would need about 3mill+ in gunnery to be any good VS. 3 days extra skillin to fly the Talos, problem solved! Lol
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#133 - 2011-11-06 14:38:14 UTC
Phantomania wrote:
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Phantomania wrote:
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Nope, if anything move the Naga completely to hybrids and fix them. Caldari have quite enough missile ships, we don't need any more. What we need is a competitive gun platform. I'm quite tired of getting pidgeon - holed to "oh look yet another Pve ship".



If you want Hybrids, train for the Talos! Roll

Why have 2x Hybrid Turret Tier3 BC's???


Because there's no point in a missile BC with battleship missiles? It's much more likely for the hybrids to be fixed than for torpedoes (or cruise missiles) to be fixed. Plus, missiles are useless or less useful in most pvp scenarios than guns, especially when "long range" is involved. Just like the raven mostly isn't used (and hasn't been used) in pvp, that would be the end for a missile based Naga. Now, if CCP is willing to give the Naga full bonuses for both hybrids and missiles, then good! I'm all for it. But given the choice, hybrid is the way to go.




Missiles don't need to be "Fixed" and who said the Tier3 BC's were meant for long range. I see these ships as much bigger Stealth Bombers, in-fire-out. Plus just cause you can't fit a raven for PvP doesn't mean they don't get used.

10x Torp Naga's warp to a member at 10km and throw a 70,000 - 80,000 Alpha at something, it will hurt.


sure, you can do that with other ships as well. Like, for example, the raven. Or the stealth bombers you cited., you can even take a gang of HAM drakes and get a little less dps for much more staying power.

That said, I said long range, specifically inside double quotes, because using large guns means, overall, longer ranges. Siege are short range, no doubt, but a lot of people have asked for a cruise Naga, which is what I was referring to with "long ranges".

Also I never said "missiles" need to be fixed. I said cruise/torpedo. And it's not that they're bad in itself, it's just that they aren't the best weapon systems in pvp. Cruise missiles because the travel time on long range means you're going to miss most of your targets in a sniper gang. Torpedoes because they aren't exactly perfect against even same size targets due to terribly low explosion velocity and horrendously high explosion radius. The missile speed is also a significant issue in torpedoes, even if the range is short.

I have PvPed since 2005, I have seen sniping gangs, sniping fleets, close range gangs, fast gangs, static gangs, hit and run gangs, logistic gangs and whatever. I have yet to see any significant use of battleship missiles outside of PVE. Even though hybrids suck and for sniping they suck even more on caldari ships, I've always been asked to bring a rokh or a scorpion to a gang over a raven.

For the Naga, this wouldn't be much different, though perhaps in a anti-capship dedicated role a full siege Naga would be sensible (though I'm not sure the other close range tier 3 bcs wouldn't do better). Asking for torpedoes/cruises to be fixed for the Naga is perhaps asking too much... Asking for the hybrids to be fixed, since they are already working on it and it would fix a lot more ships than just the Naga and the Raven, is IMHO much more sensible and likely to happen.
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#134 - 2011-11-06 14:41:05 UTC
Phantomania wrote:

BTW- I don't have any Gunnery Skills and would need about 3mill+ in gunnery to be any good VS. 3 days extra skillin to fly the Talos, problem solved! Lol


Sorry but training time should never be taken in account when comparing ships, if not relative to one another. You always have the choice to cross train. I'm caldari, but that doesn't mean I fly only Caldari. As a matter of fact right now I can fly the Tornado better than an hybrid Naga since I'm training Large Autocannon Spec to 5, while large blasters are still at 4. Which means that I'm not asking what I'm asking "for me", since I can already fly what will probably be the best tier 3 BC anyway.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#135 - 2011-11-06 14:50:59 UTC
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Phantomania wrote:

BTW- I don't have any Gunnery Skills and would need about 3mill+ in gunnery to be any good VS. 3 days extra skillin to fly the Talos, problem solved! Lol


Sorry but training time should never be taken in account when comparing ships, if not relative to one another. You always have the choice to cross train. I'm caldari, but that doesn't mean I fly only Caldari. As a matter of fact right now I can fly the Tornado better than an hybrid Naga since I'm training Large Autocannon Spec to 5, while large blasters are still at 4. Which means that I'm not asking what I'm asking "for me", since I can already fly what will probably be the best tier 3 BC anyway.



But... like you said, your a Veteran with probably stupid amounts of SP and these ships should be good for all, even the focused missile pilots. If the Naga were just Hybrids, it would be as useful as a Tornado to me! With my way, all weapon types get a go!(except Drones)
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#136 - 2011-11-06 14:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Phantomania
Double PostOops
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2011-11-06 15:03:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesor
The Naga as it is, is completely unacceptable with mixed weapons bonuses.

Giving it a 10 percent bonus to Siege AND cruise ROF per level and a 5 percent decrease in Sig radius per level for cruise and torps would solve this.

Or concentrate on Hybrid bonuses. Don't do both.

The Talos is a glass cannon that is going to be in range of everything under the sun when it opens fire with blasters. It will live for about 10 seconds or less in any combat situation. Solution: Make it the fastest BC so it can kite a tad. Give it a ROF and damage bonus to large hybrids. That way, people can put on rails and strike like a hammer... or fit blasters and hit like Mjolnir. Of course give it enough Drone bay to fit a flight of light ECM drones. Gallente LIVE off of these things. Its the only thing about their ships currently that make them at least partly worthwhile.
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#138 - 2011-11-06 15:05:48 UTC
Phantomania wrote:
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Phantomania wrote:

BTW- I don't have any Gunnery Skills and would need about 3mill+ in gunnery to be any good VS. 3 days extra skillin to fly the Talos, problem solved! Lol


Sorry but training time should never be taken in account when comparing ships, if not relative to one another. You always have the choice to cross train. I'm caldari, but that doesn't mean I fly only Caldari. As a matter of fact right now I can fly the Tornado better than an hybrid Naga since I'm training Large Autocannon Spec to 5, while large blasters are still at 4. Which means that I'm not asking what I'm asking "for me", since I can already fly what will probably be the best tier 3 BC anyway.



But... like you said, your a Veteran with probably stupid amounts of SP and these ships should be good for all, even the focused missile pilots. If the Naga were just Hybrids, it would be as useful as a Tornado to me! With my way, all weapon types get a go!(except Drones)



Look, I wouldn't mind an effective, mass pvp-usable missile battleship. Fact is, we're not going to get it anytime soon, if ever. Which saddens me, honestly. But, as they say, strike while the iron is hot: hybrids are on the table, might as well fix them and get a working Naga than getting a Siege Naga and hoping for it to become useful sometime in the far future. And again, if CCP lets the naga have 4 bonuses, for hybrids and siege as well, then GOOD! but I find it quite unlikely given the history of ship balancing.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#139 - 2011-11-06 15:22:00 UTC
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Phantomania wrote:
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Phantomania wrote:

BTW- I don't have any Gunnery Skills and would need about 3mill+ in gunnery to be any good VS. 3 days extra skillin to fly the Talos, problem solved! Lol


Sorry but training time should never be taken in account when comparing ships, if not relative to one another. You always have the choice to cross train. I'm caldari, but that doesn't mean I fly only Caldari. As a matter of fact right now I can fly the Tornado better than an hybrid Naga since I'm training Large Autocannon Spec to 5, while large blasters are still at 4. Which means that I'm not asking what I'm asking "for me", since I can already fly what will probably be the best tier 3 BC anyway.



But... like you said, your a Veteran with probably stupid amounts of SP and these ships should be good for all, even the focused missile pilots. If the Naga were just Hybrids, it would be as useful as a Tornado to me! With my way, all weapon types get a go!(except Drones)



Look, I wouldn't mind an effective, mass pvp-usable missile battleship. Fact is, we're not going to get it anytime soon, if ever. Which saddens me, honestly. But, as they say, strike while the iron is hot: hybrids are on the table, might as well fix them and get a working Naga than getting a Siege Naga and hoping for it to become useful sometime in the far future. And again, if CCP lets the naga have 4 bonuses, for hybrids and siege as well, then GOOD! but I find it quite unlikely given the history of ship balancing.



OK, fact still remains, we'll end up with 2 Tier3 BC's that use Hybrid and none that use Missiles!!!

I'm Done! P
tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#140 - 2011-11-06 15:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: tika te
i've spent lots of time on test server the last two days....

fom the new tier3 bc I,ve only tested the tornado, naga and talosso far.
have to take closer look on the oracle tomorrow, so the only thing i can say about it for now is that i really like the ship model - whoever created it is a "grandmaster of spaceship design"!! :D

the tornado:
very nice ship. we'll certainly see lots of those on tq. it's agile and fast, its versatile, it's bonuses suit well for minmatar playing style...some ppl even say it's a bit OP, but i think its ok as long as it doesn't completely outperform a typhoon...

the naga:
not sure what its role should be. with rails it feels like a pocket-rokh, with torpedos like a pocket-raven and with blasters it outperforms the talos...perhaps the devs should rethink what purpose this ship should have and change the bonuses accordingly..

the talos:
atm for me its the perfect example why blasterboats don't perform well. on paper good dmg, but a ship that has no speed advantage over its opponents and basicly no tank.
when fitted rails however it's a bc version of a megathron since it has the same bonuses.
to me this tier3 bc needs the the most attention - again should it be a railboat or a blaster boat? the first could work very well, the second will need fundamental changes in gallente doctrin...

btw. why not trying sth like this:
give blasters much better tracking, remove tracking bonuses from blaster boats and give them a massive afterburner speed boost.
this would make balster boats fast for closing in on opponents, without increasing their signature making them a giant flying target with a "shoot and kill me" label..
AND
since afterburners need less cap/pg people could actually fit active tanks on gallente ships with active tanking bonuses...

this may not be the ultimate solution, but it could go a similar way...