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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

First post
Author
Xui Meili
Perkone
Caldari State
#141 - 2011-11-06 15:29:32 UTC
So far my experience with a couple of ships, (Can fly all 4, just can't use large hybrids)

Tornado:

Its agility and speed, I figured I would nano the sucker to stick with the side of speed as a way to close distance when fitted with 800's. Attempting to kite with this ship is near impossible. The tracking on it is horrendous even with no prop mods running.

Trying to 1v1 in this ship with a point on it, not going to happen any time soon. If faced with this ship, you should be able to get away or at least beat it. As the damage you will be receiving will be minimal at best because of tracking issues. Which is good, so far the ship is shining in the "team up" department, rather than some solo pwn mobile.

Arty fitted, is where it was a bit of an eye opener. I am partial to the maelstrom artillery fit. Always liked the idea, and this baby is the maelstroms little brother. Only thing I see scarey about it is its ability to alpha a target and warp out in a blink of an eye, to only warp back and take another pot shot. POS warfare is going to be fun to say, a defending fleet will be having a hay day trying to keep tabs on this ship without proper bubbles. Gate camps... Its over. Good bye everything.

Tank wise, its difficult to come up with something meaningful, compared to the armour counter parts. Similar to stories I am hearing about the Naga. Sure, I can get a "decent" buffer, but resistance wise, yeah, going to be a logistics nightmare.

Example - 3-4 shooting a Talos. 1 shot with EMP L at least removed all the Talos shield, and half of its armor. (Arty fit)

Oracle:

Nice ship, very much the abaddons little brother. Tried a full tach fit, was fun, a bit slow on the rof, but didn't think much of it. The Tornado fits better in the alpha group. Granted, the Tachs DO have a better rof than artillerys, the point of alpha is to make things dead instantly, not 2 - 3 shots. (My opinion of course)

Mega pulse, I saw it shine a bit better, as well with a fairly beefy tank compared to the Tornado. Fitted a 400mm plate, with a DC, and a adaptive plate, with some resistance rigs. Actually shines in the soaking up damage, while still getting good DPS with scorch. I can see this being the new mobile hellcat fleet. Tracking is still an issue though, which is good.

These two ships I have spent most of my time with, didn't try the Naga, simply for the fact, I can't think of a PVP application with the torpedoes, and as for rails, once again, I don't do large hybrids. I am assuming the Naga will excel at POS warefare if you don't have to deal with an enemy fleet, because of those torps. But a true pvp application I am just not seeing.

The Talos I haven't flown, but faced them with the 800 AC tornado and I do not really want to get in a fight with them. Because of tracking issues, I am wary to fit MWD on it, as well as because of trying to keep sig radius small. The Talos, if it does catch you (Which I see happening at a gate camp) it will melt your face. Those who are having problems with this ship, I honestly don't know whats wrong with you. I apologize if you are whining so that you can see your next pwn mobile buffed even further, but no... This ship is SCARY to come across in a close quarter combat. Even up to 15km away, taking 1300-1500 hits...

Well thats my two cents.
Xui Meili
Perkone
Caldari State
#142 - 2011-11-06 15:34:04 UTC
Phantomania wrote:
NAGA-

Do away with Hybrids on this Missile Boat.

Instead of current stats-


The Naga is a Tier 3 Battlecruiser that sacrifices durability for the ability to fit Large (Battleship-grade) weapons.

Traits
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus Per Level:
• 10% decreased factor of signature radius for Torpedo's
• 10% bonus to Siege Missile Launchers rate of fire

Role Bonus:
• 40% reduction in the powergrid need of Siege Missile Launchers
• 60% reduction in the CPU need of Siege Missile Launchers


Not sure if the CPU reduction is enough, but a little more is needed!

Big smile Please Big smile


I like the idea based on reducing the sig radius of the torps, that way you can't further "buff" it with rigs, but it will give better ability to smack around BS's and what not.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#143 - 2011-11-06 15:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people, just popping in to let you know that you're not left in the dark here, I'm following this thread closely and taking notes of some good points brought so far.

I'll give you a more detailed answer regarding the Naga/Talos tomorrow and will do my best to try to book some time next week to play test these ships more with you on Sisi.


Thanks for your time and feedback.


Can we also have a update on the stance regarding the javelin Torpedo speed penalty? It matters a lot on the Naga and prevents it from kitting BS or armor BCs and makes it impossible to keep nano BCs in Torp range. Oops
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2011-11-06 15:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
The Tornado is absolutely amazing. Watch this video from Sisi.

Tornado dominates

After a second whole day with the Talos my original comments remain the same. Now I've been trying to use it as a rail gun fit but frankly find it very wanting, and simply can't find any reason to prefer it over an arty Tornado. Still having difficulty fitting it the way I want, but I admittedly still have some fitting skills to finish up on.

I'd link a video of my flying the Talos around but all you would see is me dying a lot.

Blaster boat wise, absolutely horrible. Just can't make it perform like I can the AC Tornado.

Bottom line, when CCP created a ship that was meant for hit and run tactics with light fast ships, then of course the fastest/ most agile ship will be the best (Tornado) of the bunch. Of course it also doesn't hurt that AC's/Arty are arguably the best turrets in the game and provide nearly as much DPS in close as blasters. All the same song and dance.

But either way, when if the tornado hits Tranquility as it is now, watch out. It will dominate. Imagine 50 or 100 of these showing up on grid. Pop goes everything.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2011-11-06 15:54:30 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people, just popping in to let you know that you're not left in the dark here, I'm following this thread closely and taking notes of some good points brought so far.

I'll give you a more detailed answer regarding the Naga/Talos tomorrow and will do my best to try to book some time next week to play test these ships more with you on Sisi.


Thanks for your time and feedback.

Then scrap the design and please give us something other than:
Minmatar Cannon Boat
Gallente Blaster Boat
Caldari Missile Boat
Amarr Laser Boat



Those have been done to death.
Klingon Admiral
Carcinisation
#146 - 2011-11-06 15:56:53 UTC
Phantomania wrote:
NAGA-

Do away with Hybrids on this Missile Boat.

Instead of current stats-


The Naga is a Tier 3 Battlecruiser that sacrifices durability for the ability to fit Large (Battleship-grade) weapons.

Traits
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus Per Level:
• 10% decreased factor of signature radius for Torpedo's
• 10% bonus to Siege Missile Launchers rate of fire

Role Bonus:
• 40% reduction in the powergrid need of Siege Missile Launchers
• 60% reduction in the CPU need of Siege Missile Launchers


Not sure if the CPU reduction is enough, but a little more is needed!

Big smile Please Big smile


The problem is that the current tier 3 bc doesn't have better bonusses than their races' battleships.
In the Tornados case that's the 5% rof bonus of the Maelstrom (although some could argue that the Tempest has slightly more DPS, especially if one fills the utility highs with launchers).
The Oracle has the 5% damage bonus of the Abaddon (which does more turret dps than the geddon).
And the Talos is bonus-wise a complete copy of the megathron.

The problem of the Caldari is that there is no high-damage battleship in their ranks. The Scorpion is an ECM-boat and we all know which absolute failure the Rokh is.
Of course, the raven can field a ton of DPS when fitting torps, but still it's damage projection isn't that great and thus needs a ton of support.
From the first moment we heard "tier 3 bc = bs-equivalent damage" we should have known that the Naga will be a massive failure, as Caldari simply lacks proper high-damage options, which every other faction more or less posesses.

So while Gallente's weapons leave something to be desired, the Caldari would need a massive rework of most auf their (T1) ships.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2011-11-06 16:15:58 UTC
tika te wrote:

give blasters much better tracking, remove tracking bonuses from blaster boats and give them a massive afterburner speed boost.
this would make balster boats fast for closing in on opponents, without increasing their signature making them a giant flying target with a "shoot and kill me" label..
AND
since afterburners need less cap/pg people could actually fit active tanks on gallente ships with active tanking bonuses...



The speed boost would have to be faster than other races MWDs simply because you have to CATCH them to fire at them. Then everyone would be fitting Rails on the Talos and using it to Kite because blasters would still suck.

Give the Gallente faster ships than the other races. Give blasters a 40 percent damage increase and a 15 percent tracking increase. Also, before others start chanting "overpowered overpowered" do the math for a Neutron Blaster Megathron closing with a pulse fitted geddon at 30km trying to maintain range and then tell me this is overpowered. I've done it... and 40 percent isn't enough.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#148 - 2011-11-06 16:16:02 UTC
ok, went and tried the Naga. First impression was, if you have fitting issues with this, your skills need work. I had no problem fitting 8x T2 launchers and 3x BCS II. But I wanted to try a nano fit. So I didn't need the grid for LSEs. 4 salvos from another torp naga and that was the end of that idea. It don't speed tank.

Next fit was a more traditional shield tank. Now this is when I started running into issues with grid and CPU both. I had to pull a BCS for a CPU mod and fit an ACR rig for more grid. However, with these in place, I was able to fit out with an LSE II, 2 inv fld IIs, and a T2 EM hardener, along with 10MN MWD II and TP.

This fit was a range fit so no tackle. I was able to get 50km range using javelin torps and 1 of each range rig. This ofc explains why I was tight on grid. My rigging skills need some work to get the penalties down. But a couple extra percent wouldn't have been anywhere near enough to pull the cpu md in favor of another BCS. I feel the Naga is a little light in the fitting dept, especially on CPU. While it is possible to fit 8x T2 launchers and 3x BCS II, that doesn't really enough CPU for a tank. Tackle, yes. Tank, no. I really think it could use that missing 4th lo slot. It's tier 3 and has less slots than a Drake? That doesn't seem right.

During the flight test, I managed to get shot by a long-range Zealot (100km). His attacks did roughly 150-170 damage per shot. I noted the resists with those 3 hardeners were fairly decent given that the Naga has no tanking bonuses.

I found it easy enough to get in range of targets. But I have a tendency to sit on a safe and warp to a wreck on the test server. So perhaps not a fair test. Luckily, the Naga goes fast enough with a MWD to get position fairly quickly. Though with JAvelin torps, not so quickly. Tactical warps are of a great benefit to the Naga as it does align rather quickly.

I was also impressed with its quick locking time (scan res).

Honestly, I think all the Tier 3 BC will benefit from recon support, especially when it comes to eliminating frigates and drones that may attack it.

I don't do turrets. So I did not test them.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#149 - 2011-11-06 16:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Obsidian Hawk
Rip Minner wrote:
Talos

Make it a drone boat


Umm no, we already have the myrmidon, which has a massive win on passive shield or armor tank, plus is a great utility wagon in pvp. We dont need another drone boat.



now @ the guy who quoted me about the talos as mission rats. I was simply stating i was trying it out in a variety of ways, like most players do and just stating what i found out when trying it in those methods, remember when testing you have to think outside of the box. :glados:

Now as for the tank.- nothing wrong with it. you are going to max fire power at the expense of tanking. It's like the stealth bomber lots of boom but also shatters. Try it with a full omni resist tank in the lows and put damage rigs in.


Just one more thing on the talos - the speed is great, and the fact it is cap stable with a pvp fit on is nice also.


PS - i had not fitting problems on the talos - for those of you who do. check your hardwire slots 6 and 10. engineering and gunnery implants respectively.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

TC wabbajack
SnM pain distribution network
#150 - 2011-11-06 16:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: TC wabbajack
tried the talos out,I'm dissappointed the web bonus isnt happening and it needs more cpu or the balancing on the hybrid turrets needs to include a reduction in fitting reqs on turrets


I am about as hybrid spec as you can get( http://eveboard.com/pilot/TC_wabbajack),have perfect fitting skills and for this fit I used a clone with a 5% pg implant and I struggled to come up with a "good" dps fit.

8X(neutron blaster cannon 2)
10mn MWD 2,warp scrambler 2,stasis web 2,X5 web
2x(mag field stab 2),1600mm RT plate,tracking enhancer 2

I am left with 23 PG and 6 cpu :/


http://oi40.tinypic.com/2potj49.jpg
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#151 - 2011-11-06 16:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Obsidian Hawk
TC - try the slot 10 implant for gunnery - 3% reduce cpu need for all turrets. it should all fit then. Zainou 'Gnome' KZA1000,




Edit - tried to link my fit but forums ate my link. IF you are going to pvp though rather than solo fit - why not bring a friend in a rapier with you. Most pvp isnt solo unless its wh space.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2011-11-06 16:57:43 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Talos

Make it a drone boat


Umm no, we already have the myrmidon, which has a massive win on passive shield or armor tank, plus is a great utility wagon in pvp. We dont need another drone boat.



now @ the guy who quoted me about the talos as mission rats. I was simply stating i was trying it out in a variety of ways, like most players do and just stating what i found out when trying it in those methods, remember when testing you have to think outside of the box. :glados:

Now as for the tank.- nothing wrong with it. you are going to max fire power at the expense of tanking. It's like the stealth bomber lots of boom but also shatters. Try it with a full omni resist tank in the lows and put damage rigs in.


Just one more thing on the talos - the speed is great, and the fact it is cap stable with a pvp fit on is nice also.


PS - i had not fitting problems on the talos - for those of you who do. check your hardwire slots 6 and 10. engineering and gunnery implants respectively.

I can't imagine the level of "fail" you have to to think the Myrmidon is a massive "win". It is inferior to all the other Tier2 BCs, it has many gimped stats to "pay" for its original drone bay, but CCP took away the oversided drones and left in all the gimping.
JetCord
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#153 - 2011-11-06 17:05:17 UTC
agree that the Naga need a 2nd bonus to torpedoes and need to increase the powergrid/cpu. the tornado can hit and volleyed a frig size target with 800 but torp cannot! and the tornado has spare powergrid/cpu to fit 2 gyro/2 tracking in the low but naga need a fitting mod
either give the explosion velocity bonus to torp or give it ability to fit cruise! beside caldari main combat philosophy is pounding it enemy from far
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2011-11-06 17:22:13 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Talos

Make it a drone boat


Umm no, we already have the myrmidon, which has a massive win on passive shield or armor tank, plus is a great utility wagon in pvp. We dont need another drone boat.



now @ the guy who quoted me about the talos as mission rats. I was simply stating i was trying it out in a variety of ways, like most players do and just stating what i found out when trying it in those methods, remember when testing you have to think outside of the box. :glados:

Now as for the tank.- nothing wrong with it. you are going to max fire power at the expense of tanking. It's like the stealth bomber lots of boom but also shatters. Try it with a full omni resist tank in the lows and put damage rigs in.


Just one more thing on the talos - the speed is great, and the fact it is cap stable with a pvp fit on is nice also.


PS - i had not fitting problems on the talos - for those of you who do. check your hardwire slots 6 and 10. engineering and gunnery implants respectively.


On the flip side I could fully fit the Tornado with no "fitting" implants. Yet another reason not to fly the Talos
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
#155 - 2011-11-06 17:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zendoren
Talos needs a 50 m3 drone bay and a 50 Mbit/sec bandwidth.......

Assuming the new med web drones will be 10 m3 and use 10 Mbits/sec bandwidth

Here is why.....

P.S. Don't make it a drone boat like a mini domi. Give it a drone bay like every other Tech 1 Gallente boat in the game!

❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?

Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#156 - 2011-11-06 18:11:49 UTC
The Naga should be a cruise missile and torp ship.
Drop the hybrid bonuses and replace with 25% damage bonus to kinetic missiles. At the moment it's too slow as a hybrid boat to offer much more over the rokh and can't really tank.

With cruise missiles, most of the complains people have about range, not being able to fit for full damage, CPU, tank and more should melt away.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Raimo
Genos Occidere
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#157 - 2011-11-06 18:40:48 UTC
Agreed on the Talos:

Zendoren wrote:


P.S. Don't make it a drone boat like a mini domi. Give it a drone bay like every other Tech 1 Gallente boat in the game!


(Hell, even 5 lights would be better than nothing)
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#158 - 2011-11-06 18:53:15 UTC
I've spent quite a bit of time playing with these and here are my thoughts so far.

Tornado: Best one of the lot by far. Its got the best slot layout, best tank with option for tackle, best speed, good damage, good fitting. IMO the others should be compared to this one.

Oracle: Second place but still a fair ship. It works, you have some decent fitting options and the ability to fly different styles eg nano, 100mn AB, downgrading guns works to give you more options. Major downside though in that it is pretty bad as an armor tanker. Half as fast, tracks worse, tight on PG and CPU. Armor tanking just doesn't work with these.

Talos: Its a good gank boat, but is paper thin and the option of adding plates doesn't add much survivability and causes a lot of problems.

Naga: Its a ship I really want to love. I like the theme (Rails and Torps) lets be honest if it fit cruise there wouldn't be any reason to fit anything else. That being said this ship has some serious flaws. Its a glass pig, its solidly the slowest one of the bunch, and it also does the least damage in any practical application. Its also got the worse fitting for tank. Really this is a ship that in theory could become great, but in all practical application is terrible. Fix it with proper bonuses to both weapon systems, lets be honest the world won't end if you have a hybrid torp rail boat.


Other issues: Much of the armor tanker woes IMO are about the viability of plates in the role of these ships. Plated ships are half as fast. Perhaps rework some of the plates. ATM Rolled tungtun give the most HP and are the lightest. Perhaps make it so Nanofiber plates give a moderate boost to armor amount but add only a small amount of mass. Just a thought.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#159 - 2011-11-06 19:11:23 UTC
Naga is suh a cool idea.

The ship needs to have a 3rd bonus, I was thinking, having 2 range only bonuses is dumb. So have one range bonus for missles, one range bonus for guns, and a 5% bonus to resistances per level.

It won't be unfair as no matter what you're only using 2 bonuses at a time based on your fit.

Also you guys love doing range plus shield resistance bonus ships. I'm not sure why you do, but it would fit, turn the ship into the rohks little bro.


also typhoon should get this new 8 turrets and 8 launchers hard point idea too. It's a fitting approach.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

spawx
The Congregation
OnlyFleets.
#160 - 2011-11-06 19:25:19 UTC
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Nope, if anything move the Naga completely to hybrids and fix them. Caldari have quite enough missile ships, we don't need any more. What we need is a competitive gun platform. I'm quite tired of getting pidgeon - holed to "oh look yet another Pve ship".


Eh if you want ****** hybrid guns go Gall, caldari is a Missile race so stop the bullshit about Hybrids on them.