Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Rise

Do you not see how odd the Rokh is having a attack role type bonus being range? and having a brawler role bonus of resist?
Also please reduce its mass and buff its speed its meant to be a brawler with blasters for christ sake.. ..

Also 500 sig radius on a shield tanking ship is that necessary really?????

still not sure why you keep the scorp as it is .at a higher price than the falcon ... and less effective is it really worth keeping as a ecm only ship? .. why not at least split its bonuses
- ecm strength/ecm burst range
- ROF bonus
- switch a mid to a high
- buff its tank

very situational indeed ... it just seems like caldari are hampered with losing a battleship that does nothing better than a t1 cruiser can do (blackbird) . .. where as say something like navy scorp or another Hybrid ship would have more common use and add variety... besides battleships are meant to be dps/tanky ships.

I Think maybe changing it to a 10% optimal range 7.5% tracking Hybrid Attack battleship would actually add something to the game.
Rokh could lose the optimal range bonus for a damage bonus.

I feel that while these changes are a step in the right direction, the end result will still be that Caldari will be the least desirable of pvp ships. This can especially be seen when you compare the Caldari Odyssey versions against their other counterparts such as the revised Gallente.

I share you view that Caldari ships had always been on the right track with their diversity. However the main difficulty with these ships is that their intended advantages are not very pronounced and difficult to get a hold of. More detail and suggested changes I will get into with some detail.

Rokh

Role
The spirit of this ship is a tough but cumbersome boat that has the ability to use range as it's main weapon to threaten the battlefield.

Why the Rokh Needs a bit of a change
The Rokh has traditionally suffered for the impracticality of it's intended role because of the evolution of the game, and tactics. It has significant weaknesses in critical areas where it hopes to find strength and therefore find's itself a very expensive second or third choice in most scenario's. Until the evolution of the Blaster Rokh this ship found little use at all on the battlefield. In order to look at this argument further, lets examine the potential roles this ship is can be used.

The problem with the primary advantage of range...
This advantage is fantastic for ships that have the natural ability to dictate the range of the engagement. However it is out of place on a battleship class ship since they are slow and unable to dictate range. It would not be ideal to allow a battleship to have the ability to dictate range either since it would provide a significant imbalance to the game as a result.

As a Sniper
The ship has a fantastic bonus to optimal range on one of the longest range weapon systems available, Rails. However it is hampered by the nature of most sniping operations. The concept of fleet sniping in eve is to use overwhelming team Alpha strike to suddenly overwhelm a focus target's defenses before they can receive support, and keep the range advantage for safety by frequently repositioning as needed on the battlefield. This has generally made two points critical in this role; maneuverability and Alpha strike.

The Rokh has no damage bonus, and sports a weapon system that depends on Rate of Fire rather than Alpha for it's damage. Having no significant advantage in maneuverability over it's counterparts, and ranking third in Alpha strike out of 4 long ranged weapon systems, the Rokh find's itself an unlikely choice for such operations especially considering it's price tag. While it can theoretically attack from ranges far greater than any other ship in the game, that bonus is of little use since the damage is so light with very little Alpha, it finds little use in a fleet engagement especially since few ships would be able to support it due to the unique range.

As a Mid to Close range Ship of the Line
The Rokh has a great range bonus, however the two weapon systems it can be applied to are the two extremes of eve with super short range, and super long range. Since this combat generally takes place within 20-50 KM at the engagement start much of the Rokh's natural advantage seems watered down because while it does gain a range advantage over it's counterparts, it is not enough to produce a meaningful advantage.

Mid ranged fleet situations are generally dominated by close range ships who maneuver around to apply extreme dps, or long range ships that can hit the main battlefield without leaving support range of their fleet. While the Rokh would gain a natural advantage here it is not that significant since an excess of range on a Rail boat provides no advantage. With a blaster boat sustained damage is king unless you can gain a significant range advantage over your peers and a 2.3-3.2km advantage over it's Gallante counterparts makes this bonus generally wasted.

Suggested Changes
Change Bonuses to "+10% Optimal Range and Falloff per level, +4% Shield Resistances per level
(Net change +50% Falloff)

What this Does

• Improves Rokh's threat range, while it will never be the highest damage boat it would be able to apply it's damage a much larger variety of situations and makes the ship a passive anti sniper. It can also use higher damage ammo to convert some of that excess range into damage and get closer to it's peers.
• Threat range improvement would also allow Blaster Rokh to apply damage significantly sooner than it's higher dps counterparts making it more flexible in fleet situations.
• It would be possible to snipe with slightly higher damage ammo with module assistance

Technical Differences
The Rokh would gain extra falloff to further it's strength with range. With the way fall off works, on T2 450 rails that would add another 4.95 KM to the effective range (Optimal + 33% of Falloff range for a hit rate over 90%) or 15 km at first falloff (50% hit rate). For Blasters that would work out to an additional 2.58KM to the effective range of T2 Mega blasters or 7.81KM to the max range.

EDIT:
To clarify the differences between the Gallante range and the Rokh range today vs after the suggested change I am posting the differences.
Rail range advantage increases from 18Km to 22.95Km (+4.95Km)
Rail 1st Falloff advantage increases from 18Km to 33Km (+15Km)
Blaster range advantage increases from 4.22Km to 6.8Km (+2.58Km)
Blaster 1st Falloff advantage increases from 4.22Km to 12.03Km (+7.81Km)

I'm guessing the current Raven stats that are in the thread here are as of now what's going to be launching with Odyssey. How disappointing.

It's because it's the designated L4 ship, isn't it. By making the Raven good at PvP, you'd be imbalancing it in terms of PvE performance as well or something. So you're going to leave it utterly mediocre in every way that counts, and outclassed by more or less every other battleship in the entire ******* game. Great.

are the devs even reading this? not one reply or am I crazy?

Rokh T3 = Strat cruiser like mods.

I do like the idea of a mod that swaps out 1 large cannon mount for multiple smaller mounts. to make it more usefull though I would go with
4 meds for 1 large
8 small for 1 large

this would bring u more in line with traditional battleships and make them far more feared than they are now.

also if a weapon system has more than 1 gun in it, shouldn't it use more ammo AND potentially cause that much more damage?

limit the number of swaps.

2 meds sets of 4, 1 or 2 sets of small at 8

Yes the DPS would be huge, really only at close range.
Long range with the mains would perhaps be lowered, unless these guys learn how to make the large turrets with actual multi gun systems. (2, 3, 4 guns in 1 turret, firing 2, 3, 4 shells with their damage all counting crazy right I know lol)

they are BATTLESHIPS they should be dangerous, deadly scary death machines.

Who ever thought it would be a good idea to make BS weak was perhaps not well informed.

Battleships should not ever be easy prey for lesser vessels.

Not sure about that resist tweak, I know it's only supposed to be applied to the rokh and the abaddon at the moment; however I'm a little worried this will end with that tweak affecting all the amaar and caldari ships with this resist bonus, and while it's not huge, it's deffinatly enough to make a difference.

100 MN MWD cap requirements are far too high. There's an argument that it should be reduced for all BS, countered by greater mobility differences between attack and combat BS, but your method would also give good results.

A speed change from 19 m/s to 20 m/s is arbitrary and balancing is not done in terms of pretty numbers (although if it was, I'd have primes everywhere).

I don't understand your criticism of the Raven. It and the Typhoon appear to be the only vaguely useful attack BS. The other attack BS are so far overshadowed by ABCs in the attack role that they appear worthless. The same criticism also applies to the Raven and Typhoon, but at least they have a range-flexible weapon system not found on ABCs that gives them some unique game space to exist in.

The change does apply to all ships with the resist bonus. All your fears come true.