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IS boxer Software and it's legality under the EULA

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Author
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2013-05-23 22:46:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Roime wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

What's the difference between 10 players trying to kill me and me with 10 accounts trying to kill them? Still 10 accounts on each side. I say they're cheating cause they have an advantage still. They should be nerfed.


Difference is that they are playing the game as it was designed, and their success depends on teamwork, experience and execution.

Your success depends on a third party program controlling game clients on your behalf, enabling actions that would be impossible to execute by a single player without the third party program.

What's the difference between a player recording an action and his botting program repeating it 10 times, and you performing an action and your ISbotting program repeating it 10 times?

No their success depends on having 10 accounts. Same as mine. The difference between your two scenarios is in one a person is making the decision to fire on a target vs a computer algorithm mindlessly activating an attack based on a set of predetermined variables.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

rswfire
#182 - 2013-05-24 04:42:44 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No their success depends on having 10 accounts. Same as mine. The difference between your two scenarios is in one a person is making the decision to fire on a target vs a computer algorithm mindlessly activating an attack based on a set of predetermined variables.


This isn't true. I have 10 accounts. And I cannot control them in the same manner as you without using botting software, which I would not do. It's just that simple. You have a 10x multiplier for every attack you make. I don't know why this is even disputed. It's just a simple fact. Whether you agree with using this software or not, why deny this? If I had a fleet of 10 people, they would not respond exactly as you because it's 10 humans instead of 1.

In that scenario, many people say the humans would have the advantage; I don't know as I've not fought a fleet of botters. I've watched people use this software to clean out belts, to quickly rat, etc. I've never actually seem it used in combat. Some scenarios are okay to me, some not. In general though, I just see it as cheating. You're not individually controlling each of your characters; to me, that's just intuitively wrong. I welcome that we don't all agree on this and you're welcome to your point of view and I'm not trying to attack you in any way.
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#183 - 2013-05-24 04:57:05 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

No their success depends on having 10 accounts. Same as mine. The difference between your two scenarios is in one a person is making the decision to fire on a target vs a computer algorithm mindlessly activating an attack based on a set of predetermined variables.


They all have just one account, you're the one with 10 accounts.

Human made the decision on both cases once, mindless computer programs repeats the attack bases on a set of predetermined variables.

.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2013-05-24 05:07:44 UTC
rswfire wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No their success depends on having 10 accounts. Same as mine. The difference between your two scenarios is in one a person is making the decision to fire on a target vs a computer algorithm mindlessly activating an attack based on a set of predetermined variables.


This isn't true. I have 10 accounts. And I cannot control them in the same manner as you without using botting software, which I would not do. It's just that simple. You have a 10x multiplier for every attack you make. I don't know why this is even disputed. It's just a simple fact. Whether you agree with using this software or not, why deny this? If I had a fleet of 10 people, they would not respond exactly as you because it's 10 humans instead of 1.

In that scenario, many people say the humans would have the advantage; I don't know as I've not fought a fleet of botters. I've watched people use this software to clean out belts, to quickly rat, etc. I've never actually seem it used in combat. Some scenarios are okay to me, some not. In general though, I just see it as cheating. You're not individually controlling each of your characters; to me, that's just intuitively wrong. I welcome that we don't all agree on this and you're welcome to your point of view and I'm not trying to attack you in any way.

I use a wireless mouse and keyboard and have my PC attached to a large screen high res LCD TV. The mouse and keyboard communicate though an IR dongle. Would you agree that when I click on my weapons to fire I am doing so manually. Now what if I have 10 computers one wireless mouse and keyboard and 10 IR dongles? I'm running 10 characters. When I click my weapons the signal is sent to all 10 dongles and all my accounts fire. I'm still manually firing.

IRBoxer is the same. I can't get it too do anything automated without braking EULA. All I can do is replicate exactly my mouse clicks. If I have 5 snipers, a tackler, and a couple off RR and I set my tacklers to orbit all my ships will attempt to orbit. Not good. I can only do very basic things like fire. With some smart setup of module placement I can get my ships to activate scram, web, nuets, and fire simultaneously but it's nowhere near the capability of 10 real pilots whose ships can behave independently of eachs others GUI.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

rswfire
#185 - 2013-05-24 05:21:47 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I use a wireless mouse and keyboard and have my PC attached to a large screen high res LCD TV. The mouse and keyboard communicate though an IR dongle. Would you agree that when I click on my weapons to fire I am doing so manually. Now what if I have 10 computers one wireless mouse and keyboard and 10 IR dongles? I'm running 10 characters. When I click my weapons the signal is sent to all 10 dongles and all my accounts fire. I'm still manually firing.

IRBoxer is the same. I can't get it too do anything automated without braking EULA. All I can do is replicate exactly my mouse clicks. If I have 5 snipers, a tackler, and a couple off RR and I set my tacklers to orbit all my ships will attempt to orbit. Not good. I can only do very basic things like fire. With some smart setup of module placement I can get my ships to activate scram, web, nuets, and fire simultaneously but it's nowhere near the capability of 10 real pilots whose ships can behave independently of eachs others GUI.


Everything you said is true and I don't disagree with it. You do have to keep your setups exact or be pretty creative in your placement of modules. That's why I say it's a 10x multiplier. As for the first paragraph, at first I thought it was leading in the same direction a lot people argue ("but what if I had 10 computers?") I can't really argue with what you said; it is technically sound, and therefore not disputable. It still doesn't make it right though, imho. I do see this as cheating, but it's just my personal point of view. For you, it's obviously not. We'll never agree as a result because there's just no middle ground on this subject, and that's okay. It's sanctioned activity so you're automatically on the winning side of this argument.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2013-05-24 05:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
rswfire wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I use a wireless mouse and keyboard and have my PC attached to a large screen high res LCD TV. The mouse and keyboard communicate though an IR dongle. Would you agree that when I click on my weapons to fire I am doing so manually. Now what if I have 10 computers one wireless mouse and keyboard and 10 IR dongles? I'm running 10 characters. When I click my weapons the signal is sent to all 10 dongles and all my accounts fire. I'm still manually firing.

IRBoxer is the same. I can't get it too do anything automated without braking EULA. All I can do is replicate exactly my mouse clicks. If I have 5 snipers, a tackler, and a couple off RR and I set my tacklers to orbit all my ships will attempt to orbit. Not good. I can only do very basic things like fire. With some smart setup of module placement I can get my ships to activate scram, web, nuets, and fire simultaneously but it's nowhere near the capability of 10 real pilots whose ships can behave independently of eachs others GUI.


Everything you said is true and I don't disagree with it. You do have to keep your setups exact or be pretty creative in your placement of modules. That's why I say it's a 10x multiplier. As for the first paragraph, at first I thought it was leading in the same direction a lot people argue ("but what if I had 10 computers?") I can't really argue with what you said; it is technically sound, and therefore not disputable. It still doesn't make it right though, imho. I do see this as cheating, but it's just my personal point of view. For you, it's obviously not. We'll never agree as a result because there's just no middle ground on this subject, and that's okay. It's sanctioned activity so you're automatically on the winning side of this argument.

I actually do agree with you. I consider it "cheating" as well. I'm more playing devils advocate. In a game where cheating is frowned upon I wouldn't use it. In my earlier days in EvE I wouldn't' have even considered it but I don't take EvE very seriously as a competitive game. EvE is a game where "cheating" is rife and applauded. You either "cheat" or as its referred to "metagame" harder but within the defined rules or you don't get anywhere imo.

Examples of EvE metagaming

alt scouts
old school neutral RR
OGB
Lofty scam
Invite to fleet with wars active
Logoffski
Log on traps
Invite spamming

list goes on and on... you know what they say if you don't use it you lose it.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#187 - 2013-05-24 12:09:56 UTC
Fixy FixIT wrote:
Hello all,

I just wanted to bring something to light and hear your views on the legality of this piece of software as regards the eve EULA.

I ask you all to Watch this tutorial from start to end http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RBRp9GEji4E

and then tell me that this DOESN'T break the rules set out in the EULA, specifically :

Quote : "6. CONDUCT
A. Specifically Restricted Conduct
2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.
3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.asp"



Clearly, IS Boxer breaks the EULA rules right from the start as it allows you to login multiple accounts all at the same time without having to enter account name and password details etc..... (ahem - remember this "other stored rapid keystrokes
")
Never mind the fact that you can position windows so that modules on your ships like Guns and shields can all be activated on multiple accounts simultaneously and with just a single click.

I raised a petition with Customer Support and the best they could do was direct me to the forums,

**** Edited GM convo out of this post at advice of another member ****

So it would seem that CCP encourage people to break the rules.

I have to ask myself the question - I wonder how many people are using this software, and if it's large, organised corporations that are doing so.........

Imagine how a fleet of 20 miners under control of IS boxer could affect the local market mineral prices,
Imagine how a fleet of PvP ships could take down your T3 ship if you didn't have to alt tab all the while or even worse, you have two gangs of tacklers IS boxing to keep your ship jammed/scrammed etc while the rest of the fleet guns you down.

This software should be banned - It breaks the mechanics of the game and it's clearly cheating.

But that's my View.

What's yours ?


Aaah. Someone is mad about not being able to pay for multiple accounts for himself.


ISBoxer is allowed...It doesn't change or interveres with the client.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Mustis Berg
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#188 - 2013-05-24 13:59:27 UTC
So many personnal attacks...

I support the idea that using ISBox is clearly cheating.

Even if it gets banned, you would still be able to multibox but using that program is clearly an automated way to control multiple accounts which gives an unfair advantage.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#189 - 2013-05-24 14:25:38 UTC
GM Lelouch wrote:
if you use a piece of software which enables you to autopilot to 0, you can expect a permanent suspension of your account as you are in gross violation of the EULA.


Wait, what...why did all those AP-0 guys only got a 30 day ban when you state it would have been a perma ban...

I demand justice. People keep whining about a program that CCP has said for years is "allowed", yet obvious breaching of the EULA/ToS by modding a client only gets you the mino 30 day ban.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

rswfire
#190 - 2013-05-24 14:33:31 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Aaah. Someone is mad about not being able to pay for multiple accounts for himself.

ISBoxer is allowed...It doesn't change or interveres with the client.


What kind of argument is this you guys are throwing around? I've already disproved it. I don't like ISBoxer and I happily give CCP over $150 a month. Ask yourself this before posting: If I disagree with a post, can I reply to it constructively and with a rational argument? If the answer is no, you're probably better off skipping the response.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#191 - 2013-05-24 14:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Tippia wrote:


So… if you admit to being wrong (since your answer as been proven wrong) why do you keep harping on with this counterfactual nonsense?


Is this in regards to you saying on one hand the human did it, and the other saying it was DirectX built in?

Because I find it hard to believe that if I do not have isboxer, and have both my accounts logged in on same computer, and hit F1 on one account, I have to manually alt tab (you know, use human input) to hit F1 on my other account, as opposed to having ISBoxer (a program), do that exact same action for me, without my human input, on, that, account.

If I am not alt tabbing to that other account, and a program is in fact doing those inputs for me.... where is my input on that account?

No. I do not admit I'm wrong. I do not see where your human input comes from in regards to the second account. I do not see where directx is doing it for me either.


(Disclaimer- just using isboxer does not fully allow these actions to happen, but it is the gateway into using Synergy, key broadcasters and other software meant to emulate the actions of a single user).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Baldour Ngarr
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2013-05-24 14:49:46 UTC
I haven't seen any really interesting dead horses lately and my flogger is getting rusty, so I might as well make this observation;


There is a qualitative difference between software that transmits your decision to multiple clients at once, and software that takes the decision itself. Quite clearly, it's only the latter that CCP wants rid of; so why are so many people so intent on arguing what counts as automation and what doesn't ... or, to put it bluntly who the hell cares?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2013-05-24 14:51:48 UTC
Klymer wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

That's where I draw the line at the EULA.


...and we finally get to the heart of the problem, you think your opinion matters.

When you have a red box that says GM in front of your name like this person then maybe I'll take you seriously, until then....





Of course my opinion matters. If it didn't, I wouldn't voice it. Nor would you have responded to it.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2013-05-24 14:55:08 UTC
Lexar Mundi wrote:
Quote:
He's got 100 accounts, he should be banned because ice mining is too easy. Moving that orca every few minutes after paying 35 billion isk so I can make 77 mil an hour, is just to easy. Yeah. People shouldn't pay CCP cash for ISK. We want more expensive fuel. We want less POS's. More expensive T3 ships. Must be in highschool if you don't understand economics.


They are changing ice mining, you know that right?



Plus, they also changed the launcher.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Lady Areola Fappington
#195 - 2013-05-24 15:13:09 UTC
The never ending argument!

It's amusing how I can register 30 different accounts, then use software to perform a parallel replication of commands, netting me (in this example), 30 ore holds of ice after a set amount of time. That's cool.

But, if I take one account, and perform a serial replication of commands to gather the same 30 ore holds of ice, that's botting.

Now3, before you say the second example is "program making decisions", no. I'm talking about simple replication of commands. All I'm doing is trading numbers for time.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#196 - 2013-05-24 15:50:21 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
The never ending argument!

It's amusing how I can register 30 different accounts, then use software to perform a parallel replication of commands, netting me (in this example), 30 ore holds of ice after a set amount of time. That's cool.

But, if I take one account, and perform a serial replication of commands to gather the same 30 ore holds of ice, that's botting.

Now3, before you say the second example is "program making decisions", no. I'm talking about simple replication of commands. All I'm doing is trading numbers for time.

I believe it's more to do with inability to police it. I mean should you get banned for managing to replicate a number of account inputs at the same time? When? How many accounts? Two? What if your using two PCs and two mice and both hands? 5? What if you have taped up some contraption to mechanically manipulate the mice? Is that ban worthy ? If they ban ISBoxer then what if you instead use my method and have a wireless mouse and keyboard and multiple IR receivers? How do you detect these things? Everything happens at the same time? How do handle software that randomly assigns delay? Ad nauseam.

The only reliable way to avoid banning people accidentally and avoid being swamped with suspect multiboxer like petitions is a) limit each IP to one account (revenue hit + easily worked around) or b) allow multi boxing.

Go after the bots that don't respond while being active is a much better option IMO.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

VegasMirage
Did he say Jump
Dock Workers
#197 - 2013-05-24 17:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: VegasMirage
I love my ISBOXER.

I suicide industrials and freighters with my ISBOXER.

When I'm really bored I mine out all the ore in a system with my ISBOXER.

If I need plex I can run C4 Sleeper sites using ISBOXER and make 2 billion isk a day.

I can drop 5 maxed Vindi pilots on you at the Jita undock all using ISBOXER 1 click and you're dead.

You should all get 20 accounts use ISBOXER because it makes Eve a lot easier to play.

ISBOXER makes me feel good. It gives me wood.

no more games... it's real this time!!!

Xeraphi
Perkone
Caldari State
#198 - 2013-05-24 18:58:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Xeraphi
Ellen Thrace wrote:
Jason Xado wrote:
I can put a lot more nails into a piece of wood with a hammer than with my thumb. I don't call a hammer automation.


But you can't use 40 hammers at the same time, can you ?


Yes you can.

You can build a hammer holder that could hold 40 hammers and put 40 nails under those 40 hammers. But a human would still have to hold the set of hammers and whack something with it.

You can also build a factory that automatically hammers anything that's put on a pressure plate under it.

The difference between ISBoxer and Botting is that in ISBoxer, a human has to hold the "set of hammers" by pressing a key to make something happen in game. In Botting, a human doesn't even have to be at the computer. THAT is the difference between replication and automation. Understand yet?

New target lock death animation problem #1 ^ eye strain and pain Temporary workaround found to one of these.

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2013-05-24 23:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mortimer Civeri
Lexar Mundi wrote:
All I am going to say is I would get rid of ISBoxer and the software that came with it because it will be against the EULA / ToS once CCP gets things sorted out. I thought it was cool until my friend informed me what it could really do. If i were you guys I would get rid of it.

I hope this post is ok I just wanted to warn people about it. What?

My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who said CCP is going to say ISBoxer is going to violate the EULA at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Baldour Ngarr
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2013-05-25 00:32:43 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

But, if I take one account, and perform a serial replication of commands to gather the same 30 ore holds of ice, that's botting.


How is the replication of commands going to keep you in range if you get bumped?