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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Tzu Wu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1241 - 2013-05-20 18:07:06 UTC
[quote=Unezka Turigahl]Whats wrong with "farming" 4/10s? People farm missions and incursions in hisec with any ship they want. They generate ISK out of thin air while doing so. 4/10s in certain areas of space can drop modules that the market has deemed are worth 400-500mil. So what. So people running those sites are traveling around, competing with each other, and then interacting with the market. Rather than sitting around generating ISK at their leisure. Sounds like the least broken form of hisec PvE to me.

This sums up my feelings about it as well.Hisec incursions are Ok but not hisec exploration? Wheres the reasoning behind this? Oh it's too easy you say? So is an incursion with logi V pilots repping you non-stop.
Myrkala
Royal Robot Ponies
#1242 - 2013-05-20 18:13:44 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued.

-- THIS.
You took away a part of gameplay, which often was a source of some player interactions. Please give it back.

BTW, currently on SiSi if you manually call your probes back you have to wait before they return. But if you just leave the system, you get them back instantly. Very odd, if not more.

p.s. The same about probes' lifespan. They need to be mortal. By the same reasons.


THIS ten times over.

even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing probes in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished.


+1
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#1243 - 2013-05-20 18:16:05 UTC
Every once in a while I find myself doing a period of hisec exploration. Just resubbed so I'm bulking up the wallet a bit before heading back to null.

And I've done my fair share of low and null explo as well.

Some of the most adrenaline-filled fun I've had is getting into a GSO only to find another t3 there, and then competing with them for the bacon at the end. The risk of some good pvp here is a lot higher than some might expect, especially if I or the other guy decide to steal from the can at the end.

Well I suppose now that t3's won't be allowed it'll be a lot quicker to kill whoever tries stealing those cans. Doubtul this nerf would stop any of this farming behaviour though. There will be a very SHORT period of adaptation and things will be the same again. Maybe even worse! Twisted

All those whiners wanting to pull more targets into lowsec....you know, it's usually not worth the time it takes to complete any Watch or (especially) Vigil escalations. More times than not, no loot drops. So all the arguments about the payout for risk are...invalid.
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
#1244 - 2013-05-20 18:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitanga
The CCP product team (those driving the direction of this game) - must not play this game.

concerning T3 - as someone stated before, just rework the loot tables to only allow the magical loot to drop in lowsec and nullsec. thats it, problem solved. you will never see another t3 in any highsec plex again. no need to rework the gates.

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Now back to the main topic from which this thread has been derailed.. actual probing mechanics...

Please CCP, reconsider the removal of Deep Space Probes, the mechanic that replaces them is not there....
AND please rework your current probe launch code to allow 2 or 3 saved user defined launch patterns instead of that 8 probe launch solution you currently have out there...
Myrkala
Royal Robot Ponies
#1245 - 2013-05-20 18:59:42 UTC
I've tested the probing mechanics, and I do not like the new controls at all, it feels like I'm moving one probe around, the scaling and positioning controls are the worst.

I'd really like to read the user stories behind these changes. It definitely feels like they are dumbing down the probe mechanics.

Why the requirement of having 7 probes ? Is it because of a code smell?

I get how a single core probe might not be useful after these changes, but if I'm not mistaken its possible to scan down a signature with just 4 probes. Why remove that?

Why do the probes need to magically reappear in our cargo holds when we jump/dock?

I really don't get it, if you forget your probes. they should be left behind.
It allows for more player interactions in many ways!
You guys also do realize there might be a few reasons why people WANT to leave probes behind?
I'm baffled why you think its better to cater to forgetful people.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#1246 - 2013-05-20 19:23:45 UTC
Myrkala wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued.

-- THIS.
You took away a part of gameplay, which often was a source of some player interactions. Please give it back.

BTW, currently on SiSi if you manually call your probes back you have to wait before they return. But if you just leave the system, you get them back instantly. Very odd, if not more.

p.s. The same about probes' lifespan. They need to be mortal. By the same reasons.


THIS ten times over.

even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing probes in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished.


+1

Also leaving probes were good for finding quick undock save spots. So yeah instantly back probes are not so cool.

About 4/10 like many people before me said it would be great if you just place them in low sec .
Perris Korat
PKor A.T. Metals and Mechanical
#1247 - 2013-05-20 19:29:40 UTC
CCP!!

This minimum probe amount requirement to launch probes HAS to change. Either that, or you need to make sure that probers know well in advance that they cannot probe without having 8 probes onboard their ship.

I have always used 5 probes to scan. I am in a WH, in a probing ship with only 5 probes onboard, just like I have always been for the last two years. When I launch SiSi, currently I am unable to probe my way out of this WH, because I can't launch ANY probes due to the minimum restriction. I don't have access to more probes. I am in a WH.

Honestly, these probing changes feel like you guys came up with some new gameplay ideas, and you're modifying the basics of probing to suit this new gameplay without considering all the other ways people have been using the tools since forever. When you made the switch to the 8th probe, you made some people happy, but you have to fix it so people can use any amount of probes they want, whether it's 8 or 5 or 1.

Please fix this ridiculously broken change.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#1248 - 2013-05-20 20:05:45 UTC
I agree that only being able to launch a predefined number of probes is a negative. As of now the only way to get around this restriction is to launch the preset 8, recall the number you don't want to use then, adjust the probes manually. This isn't a time saver; it's a time waster.

Today I finally found a data site to test the new mechanics. It was a hugely frustrating experience to say the least. After "playing" the hacking mini game (which seemed to me to involve no skill at all, just a bunch of random clicking) I got the mini can explosion. The cans are so small that I could barely see them as they were ejected into space. As a result many of them were out of proximity to my ship and had disappeared before I could act to try to retrieve any. Not only are they small and difficult to see they also move pretty quickly. The end result was that I only captured 2 mini cans (one contained datasheets, the other contained electronic parts).

The whole ordeal left a bad taste in my mouth. If this is what we're being forced into then at least give us decent rewards for putting up with the major frustrations of using the new system. The paltry amount of items I recovered didn't justify the time I spent and certainly wouldn't justify having multiple people involved.

I'm afraid, however, that it's too late in the process for any of these major pains to be corrected before Odyssey's release.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Tzu Wu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1249 - 2013-05-20 20:28:27 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Every once in a while I find myself doing a period of hisec exploration. Just resubbed so I'm bulking up the wallet a bit before heading back to null.

And I've done my fair share of low and null explo as well.

Some of the most adrenaline-filled fun I've had is getting into a GSO only to find another t3 there, and then competing with them for the bacon at the end. The risk of some good pvp here is a lot higher than some might expect, especially if I or the other guy decide to steal from the can at the end.

Well I suppose now that t3's won't be allowed it'll be a lot quicker to kill whoever tries stealing those cans. Doubtul this nerf would stop any of this farming behaviour though. There will be a very SHORT period of adaptation and things will be the same again. Maybe even worse! Twisted

All those whiners wanting to pull more targets into lowsec....you know, it's usually not worth the time it takes to complete any Watch or (especially) Vigil escalations. More times than not, no loot drops. So all the arguments about the payout for risk are...invalid.


This.Had it happen today,overloaded my mwd guy still beat me,was going to loot him but got to it 1 second before I could.We need more stories like this.CCP seriously needs to rethink this "expansion"
Space Wanderer
#1250 - 2013-05-20 20:30:14 UTC
Perris Korat wrote:
This minimum probe amount requirement to launch probes HAS to change.


Agreed. The scanning mechanic requires only 4 probes to scan down a sig, and they still do. If for any reason I lose some of the probes I don't want to get stuck in a WH just because CCP decided that the probe launcher wouldn't be able to launch only 4 probes....

For god's sake, what are you thinking at CCP to have come up with so many sandbox-killing changes to the scanning interface?!?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1251 - 2013-05-20 21:25:46 UTC
Tzu Wu wrote:
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Every once in a while I find myself doing a period of hisec exploration. Just resubbed so I'm bulking up the wallet a bit before heading back to null.

And I've done my fair share of low and null explo as well.

Some of the most adrenaline-filled fun I've had is getting into a GSO only to find another t3 there, and then competing with them for the bacon at the end. The risk of some good pvp here is a lot higher than some might expect, especially if I or the other guy decide to steal from the can at the end.

Well I suppose now that t3's won't be allowed it'll be a lot quicker to kill whoever tries stealing those cans. Doubtul this nerf would stop any of this farming behaviour though. There will be a very SHORT period of adaptation and things will be the same again. Maybe even worse! Twisted

All those whiners wanting to pull more targets into lowsec....you know, it's usually not worth the time it takes to complete any Watch or (especially) Vigil escalations. More times than not, no loot drops. So all the arguments about the payout for risk are...invalid.


This.Had it happen today,overloaded my mwd guy still beat me,was going to loot him but got to it 1 second before I could.We need more stories like this.CCP seriously needs to rethink this "expansion"

It just happens to me the other day also, I was doing a serpentis narcotics warehouse, I am halfway through the rats in the last room and a tengu warps in, adrenaline shoots through me, I knew what I needed to do, I set my guns at the stronghold and let them fire, the tengu does the same, then the explosion happens and for a moment it seemed like time stopes for the both of us "who got the can?" The tengu got it, two things went through my head at that point, shoot the can I might lose my ship but the can will be gone. And MWD to it and try to steal it before he gets it. In the end the tengu was faster got the loot and ran.

That was so much fun IMO, I didn't even care that I lost out on loot after a bit, the only thing was "Next time I see you tengu, I will win the race!"

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#1252 - 2013-05-20 21:27:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Unezka Turigahl
SFM Hobb3s wrote:

Some of the most adrenaline-filled fun I've had is getting into a GSO only to find another t3 there, and then competing with them for the bacon at the end. The risk of some good pvp here is a lot higher than some might expect, especially if I or the other guy decide to steal from the can at the end.


Agreed. Stuff like this is half the fun of hisec 4/10s.


Your name is familiar to me also. I'm sure we've met in a site or two.
Galmas
United System's Commonwealth
#1253 - 2013-05-20 22:31:30 UTC
Scan result window needs some love:

- resizing the columns is missing

- there is not seperator line and space between the columns, makes it hard to read when you don't have the scan window beeing covering a huge part of the screen

- you say it is showing AU and KM now, it doesnt, only AU

- would be nice to be able to change the order of the columns

Thanks, Regards
Gal
Kalel Nimrott
Caldari Provisions
#1254 - 2013-05-20 22:56:04 UTC
Hipotetical situation. I use an 8 probe formation. 4 in the center, 4 on the outside in a 2D plane and I want to resize/move only one of the two groups independently crom the other by selecting them. Would I be able to?

Bob Artis, you will be missed.

O7
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#1255 - 2013-05-21 01:28:00 UTC
At this point, I'm thinking that the utter lack of Dev feedback is fairly indicative that these changes are set in stone... Lovely. Huzzah for a rebirth of the old CCP!
Sir John Halsey
#1256 - 2013-05-21 03:46:30 UTC
I trained for Tengu because a lot of other people were using it.
Now, without it, we will see more variation in HS exploration.

Thing is, something else came into my mind... A lot of Tengus were used in HS exploration. Probably most of them :-)
After this ban, what will happen with their price? Becoming useless in such big numbers, will it go down?

Also, a lot of those juicy gurista mods were used by those Tengus :-) I'm wondering how this will affect exploration in Caldari space when the demand of those mods which were used by rich Tengu explorers will go down.
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
the holtzman experience
CAStabouts
#1257 - 2013-05-21 04:28:02 UTC
We can only launch a fixed amount of probes.
We launch these probes in fixed formations. Which can be temporarily altered, but still.
If we don't have the correct amount of probes required by the launcher we cannot launch any probes AT ALL.

So I must ask this question again:

Why not boil everything down to ONE probe?


Also, the 8th probe in the last patch was a troll, right? It's exactly the same like before with 7, only that the middle probe is slightly set off and the 8th probe stacked on top.
Space Wanderer
#1258 - 2013-05-21 06:59:37 UTC
Sir John Halsey wrote:
Thing is, something else came into my mind... A lot of Tengus were used in HS exploration. Probably most of them :-)


i doubt it. Ever heard of Interdiction nullifier? There goes the theory that most tengus are used in highsec. Blink Some subsystems might drop in price, though.

Sir John Halsey wrote:
Also, a lot of those juicy gurista mods were used by those Tengus :-) I'm wondering how this will affect exploration in Caldari space when the demand of those mods which were used by rich Tengu explorers will go down.


Will it? I tend to think that the modules will still be bought and installed on the next highsec exploration ship of choice...
Quinn Corvez
Perkone
Caldari State
#1259 - 2013-05-21 07:05:31 UTC
Question: does the descovery scanner show wormhole signatures without the player having to press any buttons?

... If so, this could kill some of the activity of wormhole space. If a player is active is space (mining, pve, camping a wormhole) and he notice a new signature pop up, he will mostlikely POS-up. How is this good for wormhole space?

Wormholes should not be detectable with the descovery scanner, you should need scan probes to detect them.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#1260 - 2013-05-21 07:43:08 UTC
Quinn Corvez wrote:
Question: does the descovery scanner show wormhole signatures without the player having to press any buttons?

... If so, this could kill some of the activity of wormhole space. If a player is active is space (mining, pve, camping a wormhole) and he notice a new signature pop up, he will mostlikely POS-up. How is this good for wormhole space?

Wormholes should not be detectable with the descovery scanner, you should need scan probes to detect them.


I'm starting to guess that those within CCP who decided on these changes, don't actually do WHs or heavy probing.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden