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[Odyssey] X-L Weapons Balance

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Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#401 - 2013-05-20 11:46:53 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Getting Dreads (and titans for that matter) back into their intended role of going after other capitals is a good direction. Leaving the option for "lol fits to fight a specific target" should still be viable, even at capital ship levels, but there should be some form of penalty in doing so which CCP is implementing. +1 CCP

As a cautionary statement, CCP has more or less done a good job in rebalancing subcaps but there has been a feeling of too much homogenizaton with every ship having the same number of slots, ehp, and utility. As others have mentioned, it sometimes feels like I pick a ship based on looks because they're all the same. I do hope that CCP makes the right changes to balance Dreads and all capitals so that they are useful against each other but still maintain their racial flavors and strengths/weaknesses.

In fact homogenization is all that bothers me. Now XL blasters and autocannons have almost the same tracking/optimal/falloff. I'm quite aware there are still a lot of other differences, but I think it's a step in the wrong direction. And so far - no reasoning whatsoever.
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#402 - 2013-05-20 12:11:26 UTC
At the moment dreadnoughts are great ships, worth their price and skills required. Maybe apart from phoenix which is pretty bad against anything that moves.
All people crying about dreadnoughts killing subcapitals are just pathetic. Solo moros will not kill anything small, despite tracking everyone whining about. Dreadnoughts to kill subcapitals need support fleet and proper fit - which is absolutely fair and fun.
All people who cannot afford them or fly them or just simply don't use them in right way - should keep quiet and learn to use potential of dreadnoughts instead of crying "oh, these dreads are so strong, CCP please do something"
I said on couple threads already - expensive/high skill ships should be efficient and fun to use.
I already see 100mil sp pilots flying in damn cruisers.

CCP I beg for the love of god, stop nerfing big ships and boosting trash cruisers and frigates.

Ok folks, I'm waiting for an ocean of cruiser sized tears.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#403 - 2013-05-20 12:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Meduza13 wrote:
At the moment dreadnoughts are great ships, worth their price and skills required. Maybe apart from phoenix which is pretty bad against anything that moves.
All people crying about dreadnoughts killing subcapitals are just pathetic. Solo moros will not kill anything small, despite tracking everyone whining about. Dreadnoughts to kill subcapitals need support fleet and proper fit - which is absolutely fair and fun.
All people who cannot afford them or fly them or just simply don't use them in right way - should keep quiet and learn to use potential of dreadnoughts instead of crying "oh, these dreads are so strong, CCP please do something"
I said on couple threads already - expensive/high skill ships should be efficient and fun to use.
I already see 100mil sp pilots flying in damn cruisers.

CCP I beg for the love of god, stop nerfing big ships and boosting trash cruisers and frigates.

Ok folks, I'm waiting for an ocean of cruiser sized tears.


I could buy you, your dreadnaught, and your entire miserable corporation a dozen times over (and that's being entirely too generous about the value of you or your corp, I'm sure) and you're wrong, and not only are you wrong but you're wrong an impressive number of times for such a short post. Sorry. Well, no, not really sorry. Smile

Crellion wrote:
I could be pursuaded to like this nerf.

It would take giving back to the Moros a 1k drone bay, with ability to control 20 drones and bandwidth to allow this to be 20 light drones only (or 10 meds or 4 heavies obviously) with a dmg bonus applying only in seige.

Get on it CCP dude Idea


haha no

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#404 - 2013-05-20 12:22:54 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
RIFT TORPEDO EXPLOSION VELOCITY: 20m/s WITHOUT SIEGE MODULE PENALTY

AEON VELOCITY: 60m/s

CAN YOU SEE THE PROBLEM?



I know reality has no place here in Eve, but come on... 20 m/s explosion velocity on the biggest missiles you can fire?

That's 45 mph.

A greyhound bus could speed tank that.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#405 - 2013-05-20 12:26:34 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
War Kitten wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
RIFT TORPEDO EXPLOSION VELOCITY: 20m/s WITHOUT SIEGE MODULE PENALTY

AEON VELOCITY: 60m/s

CAN YOU SEE THE PROBLEM?



I know reality has no place here in Eve, but come on... 20 m/s explosion velocity on the biggest missiles you can fire?

That's 45 mph.

A greyhound bus could speed tank that.


The sig radius of a greyhound bus - around 13m at the most - would have more to do with said bus' ability to tank citadel torpedo fire than its speed.

You can see this for yourself if you plug the assumed stats (30m/s torp, 26.8m/s velocity of bus, 13m sig) into the missile damage formula and separate out each of the terms in the equation. The sig term (S/E) returns .008666... whereas the velocity term (that messier one with the logarithm) returns .00964. Note that this holds true even if the bus is standing still, which is how we can conclude that the sig radius is the dominating factor. Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#406 - 2013-05-20 12:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Meduza13
mynnna wrote:
[

I could buy you, your dreadnaught, and your entire miserable corporation a dozen times over (and that's being entirely too generous about the value of you or your corp, I'm sure) and you're wrong, and not only are you wrong but you're wrong an impressive number of times for such a short post. Sorry. Well, no, not really sorry. Smile




Pure arrogance, no value. I couldn't expect any more.
smoking gun81
Doomheim
#407 - 2013-05-20 12:41:22 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
So if Dreads aren't supposed to take subcap fleets alone (i.e the blap Moros's that have been around), then why did all of these dread pilots become so elitist and think they should be able to 1 shot battleships?


It's because people upon jumping gates or using bridges forget to actually pilot their ships presenting a perfectly still target this is made worse by the siege mod not having a tracking penalty and the use of other ships for web and painter purposes reducing speed and increasing sig of the ones that do pilot their ships. This is exacerbated by the rather high damage modification siege modules offer, T2 siege I'm looking at you.

Yun Kuai wrote:
-There was a broken mechanic along the lines of too high base tracking on XL guns which CCP is now reducing slightly.


A bit of forward thinking on CCP's part on the siege module's would have never created this situation 0% difference in or out of siege towards tracking was asking for trouble, now the turrets are going to suffer because of short sighted implementation leading to homogenization between X-L blasters and autocannons.

At the end of it all dreads can only kill what is tackled properly and dreads themselves should not be able to do any of the tackling nor should they in siege suffer from zero difference in their tracking.

To quote myself from earlier in the thread:

Me wrote:


This thread strikes me as a solution to dreads shooting sub caps but criteria are needed to shoot them with siege dreads:

1: The target has multiple target painters on it
2: The target is webed by multiple webs

Add into that people just love MWD's and you have a really nice situation of dread kills subs.


Solution:

Add the E-war penalties that the triage module gets to the siege module (E-war capacitor need bonus = 9,999,900% ) this prevents the dread doing one of or both the afore mentioned points farming them out to a supporting fleet.

Adjust siege module stats ( E.g. tracking speed bonus -15% scan resolution bonus - 80% / T2 siege tracking speed bonus -10% scan resolution bonus - 75% Damage multiplier bonus 800% ).

Increase the stacking penalties of damage and tracking modules.

Leave the X-L guns alone


I would suggest going further by saying change the siege mods even more from my previous suggestion to the following:

T1 siege:
Tracking speed bonus -15%
scan resolution bonus - 80%
Damage multiplier bonus 700%
E-war capacitor need bonus = 9,999,900%


T2 siege:

Tracking speed bonus -10%
scan resolution bonus - 75%
Damage multiplier bonus 775%
E-war capacitor need bonus = 9,999,900%
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#408 - 2013-05-20 12:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Meduza13 wrote:
mynnna wrote:
[

I could buy you, your dreadnaught, and your entire miserable corporation a dozen times over (and that's being entirely too generous about the value of you or your corp, I'm sure) and you're wrong, and not only are you wrong but you're wrong an impressive number of times for such a short post. Sorry. Well, no, not really sorry. Smile




Pure arrogance, no value. I couldn't expect any more.


Says the guy who doesn't see the value in buffing ships on the low end of things and thinks that because he flies ~such an expensive ship~ Roll that he's entitled to overpowered performance . That bit was the wrongest part of your post, you know. But, the rest of it was pretty wrong too.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#409 - 2013-05-20 12:53:13 UTC
mynnna wrote:

Says the guy who doesn't see the value in buffing ships on the low end of things and thinks that because he flies ~such an expensive ship~ Roll that he's entitled to overpowered performance . That bit was the wrongest part of your post, you know. But, the rest of it was pretty wrong too.


Your arrogance is blinding you, and you just fail to notice the point of my post. You are the one who is boasting how much isk you have, not me. And it is understandable you love low end ships, as your alliance is known for using blobs of crap.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#410 - 2013-05-20 12:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
I love when people plug ships into EFT and suddenly become an expert on a ship's effectiveness.



Considering tha after hitting siege you do not touch much buttons or click in a dread, ... if there are ships were you can get a reasonable Idea of their performance in EFT .. those are the dreads :)


What skills of yours are in effect? Are you moving? Are they moving? What's your range? What's your transversal? What's your radial velocity? What boosters are in place? What webs are on the target? What's the resistances of the target? What's their logistical situation like? How varied is their tank? Do they have a resistance hole? If so, what is it? What's your cap like? Do you need to refit? What do you have on hand? Can you hold with DPS mods in the lows or should you switch out? How much can you switch out to hold that tank compared to other dreads?

You're right, flying a dread is just hitting siege and pressing F1. Then again, in w-space we use dreads for more than just shooting towers.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#411 - 2013-05-20 12:58:04 UTC
mynnna wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
RIFT TORPEDO EXPLOSION VELOCITY: 20m/s WITHOUT SIEGE MODULE PENALTY

AEON VELOCITY: 60m/s

CAN YOU SEE THE PROBLEM?



I know reality has no place here in Eve, but come on... 20 m/s explosion velocity on the biggest missiles you can fire?

That's 45 mph.

A greyhound bus could speed tank that.


The sig radius of a greyhound bus - around 13m at the most - would have more to do with said bus' ability to tank citadel torpedo fire than its speed.

You can see this for yourself if you plug the assumed stats (30m/s torp, 26.8m/s velocity of bus, 13m sig) into the missile damage formula and separate out each of the terms in the equation. The sig term (S/E) returns .008666... whereas the velocity term (that messier one with the logarithm) returns .00964. Note that this holds true even if the bus is standing still, which is how we can conclude that the sig radius is the dominating factor. Blink


Indeed - but my point was about the silliness of such a slow burning "explosion" coming from the largest missiles in the game.

Again, I realize the futility of it, but putting things into real world perspective can point out the silliness in the game mechanics.

Besides, Greyhound buses can't fly through space gravy either, so how would a Phoenix even be shooting at one, right?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#412 - 2013-05-20 13:02:17 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:


What skills of yours are in effect? Are you moving? Are they moving? What's your range? What's your transversal? What's your radial velocity? What boosters are in place? What webs are on the target? What's the resistances of the target? What's their logistical situation like? How varied is their tank? Do they have a resistance hole? If so, what is it? What's your cap like? Do you need to refit? What do you have on hand? Can you hold with DPS mods in the lows or should you switch out? How much can you switch out to hold that tank compared to other dreads?

You're right, flying a dread is just hitting siege and pressing F1. Then again, in w-space we use dreads for more than just shooting towers.


Agreed.
Dreadnoughts are fun to fly and can be very efficient in many situations, but if you dont do it right, they are useless.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#413 - 2013-05-20 13:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Meduza13 wrote:
mynnna wrote:

Says the guy who doesn't see the value in buffing ships on the low end of things and thinks that because he flies ~such an expensive ship~ Roll that he's entitled to overpowered performance . That bit was the wrongest part of your post, you know. But, the rest of it was pretty wrong too.


Your arrogance is blinding you, and you just fail to notice the point of my post. You are the one who is boasting how much isk you have, not me. And it is understandable you love low end ships, as your alliance is known for using blobs of crap.


You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who agrees with you that frigate and cruiser tiericide was a waste of time. Alliance has nothing to do with it. Blink

e: And if "If you can't afford to fly it STFU" isn't isk bragging, I don't know what is. In any case, you set "ability to afford the ship" as a requirement for discussing them, so I provided my credentials.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#414 - 2013-05-20 13:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
smoking gun81 wrote:

The problem with citadel torps is not the speed of the aeon ( I get a 66 m/s aeon difference in maths right there ) but the fact that supers fit 100 MN dead space MWD's giving them in the example of the aeon 105 M/s non overloaded speed with no ability aside of bumping it repeatedly to stop it.

How do citadel torps fair against 105M/s - 200M/s supers ????
I'm sure someone somewhere could get a lot more speed out of them so don't think this is the upper limit.


They do absolutely fine, because the MWD blooms the Aeon's sig up to a "that's no moon!" level of at least 38 km, even assuming pimp MWD and Loki links! Smile

The quotient of signature and explosion radius acts as a multiplier to missile explosion velocity, so 38000/1500 takes the future 30 m/s explosion velocity up to, er, about 740 m/s as the speed before damage mitigation begins. Even with an AB instead, lacking the MWD sig bloom, citadel torp damage mitigation doesn't appear to be possible, except possibly in some really extreme setups.

Oh, wait - does the Ragnorak's bonus to gang members' sig radii work in addition to Loki links etc? The combination of both can result in some extreme sig shrinkage, but I have a very vague memory of EFT not getting it right. What?
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#415 - 2013-05-20 13:13:28 UTC
mynnna wrote:

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who agrees with you that frigate and cruiser tiericide was a waste of time. Alliance has nothing to do with it. Blink

e: And if "If you can't afford to fly it STFU" isn't isk bragging, I don't know what is. In any case, you set "ability to afford the ship" as a requirement for discussing them, so I provided my credentials.


Can we keep this thread on topic, please?

Take this to email or slapfight in-game. You're a CSM ffs.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#416 - 2013-05-20 13:14:21 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Gypsio III wrote:
smoking gun81 wrote:

The problem with citadel torps is not the speed of the aeon ( I get a 66 m/s aeon difference in maths right there ) but the fact that supers fit 100 MN dead space MWD's giving them in the example of the aeon 105 M/s non overloaded speed with no ability aside of bumping it repeatedly to stop it.

How do citadel torps fair against 105M/s - 200M/s supers ????
I'm sure someone somewhere could get a lot more speed out of them so don't think this is the upper limit.


They do absolutely fine, because the MWD blooms the Aeon's sig up to a "that's no moon!" level of at least 38 km, even assuming pimp MWD and Loki links! Smile

The quotient of signature and explosion radius acts as a multiplier to missile explosion velocity, so 38000/1500 takes the 20 m/s explosion velocity up to, er, about 500 m/s as the speed before damage mitigation begins. Even with an AB instead, lacking the MWD sig bloom, citadel torp damage mitigation doesn't appear to be possible, except possibly in some really extreme setups.

Oh, wait - does the Ragnorak's bonus to gang members' sig radii work in addition to Loki links etc? The combination of both can result in some extreme sig shrinkage, but I have a very vague memory of EFT not getting it right. What?


An Aeon has to hit about 270m/s before it starts speed tanking citadel torp fire. That's absent links and stuff of course, but you're still looking at some extreme (for an Aeon) speed requirements.

Vincent Gaines wrote:
mynnna wrote:

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who agrees with you that frigate and cruiser tiericide was a waste of time. Alliance has nothing to do with it. Blink

e: And if "If you can't afford to fly it STFU" isn't isk bragging, I don't know what is. In any case, you set "ability to afford the ship" as a requirement for discussing them, so I provided my credentials.


Can we keep this thread on topic, please?

Take this to email or slapfight in-game. You're a CSM ffs.

Nowhere in the white paper does it say that I can't call bad posters out for their bad posting. However, this derail is at an end (at least from my side), as I've gotta get to work. Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
smoking gun81
Doomheim
#417 - 2013-05-20 13:32:57 UTC  |  Edited by: smoking gun81
mynnna wrote:

An Aeon has to hit about 270m/s before it starts speed tanking citadel torp fire. That's absent links and stuff of course, but you're still looking at some extreme (for an Aeon) speed requirements.


all hail the 358M/s hel ( my aeon is sitting at 277M/s on sisi at the moment lets see if I can boost that anymore ).

thanks for the info I've never liked or used missiles.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#418 - 2013-05-20 14:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
mynnna wrote:

An Aeon has to hit about 270m/s before it starts speed tanking citadel torp fire. That's absent links and stuff of course, but you're still looking at some extreme (for an Aeon) speed requirements.


Speed tanking missiles is not about outrunning the missile but the explosion itself, or if anything minimizing the damage of the explosion.

Once you throw in the modifier given velocity/explosion velocity, and even if we keep resistances at something terrible like 65% you're looking as a massive drop in applied damage compared to any turret-based weaponry.

Calcs using base stats (Aeon moving at 60km/s) with standard Rift Torpedo:

8896 possible 3114 with 65% resist

3031 with speed at 270m/s

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#419 - 2013-05-20 14:27:46 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
mynnna wrote:

An Aeon has to hit about 270m/s before it starts speed tanking citadel torp fire. That's absent links and stuff of course, but you're still looking at some extreme (for an Aeon) speed requirements.


Speed tanking missiles is not about outrunning the missile but the explosion itself, or if anything minimizing the damage of the explosion.

Once you throw in the modifier given velocity/explosion velocity, and even if we keep resistances at something terrible like 65% you're looking as a massive drop in applied damage compared to any turret-based weaponry.

Calcs using base stats (Aeon moving at 60km/s) with standard Rift Torpedo:

8896 possible 3114 with 65% resist

3031 with speed at 270m/s


I'm well aware as to what speed tanking a missile means. As (unlike so many others in this thread) you are evidently aware, you cannot just say "X ship moves at Y speed, the missile has Z explosion velocity, Y < Z, therefore massive drop in damage." Sig radius applies as well, increasing the actual speed required before damage mitigation occurs.

While (as smoking gun81 demonstrated) it's certainly possible to get a supercap moving that fast, I hope you'd agree it's not exactly normal.

Now, smaller capitals, carriers especially, can speed tank citadel torps, quite effectively in fact. Unfortunately, changing that simply by playing with the stats themselves would start to move us into territory where (aside from the really low missile velocity) Phoenixes could be considered be 'too good' at blapping subcaps... Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#420 - 2013-05-20 14:39:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Gypsio III wrote:

Oh, wait - does the Ragnorak's bonus to gang members' sig radii work in addition to Loki links etc? The combination of both can result in some extreme sig shrinkage, but I have a very vague memory of EFT not getting it right. What?


EDIT: Ignore - confusing myself with the effect of the mindlink and not sure if it was working as I thought or not, don't have time to retest atm.