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[Odyssey] X-L Weapons Balance

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Angelhunter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2013-05-19 08:24:19 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Angelhunter wrote:

They are used for more than just structure shooting. The point is that a 15% tracking nerf coupled with the Optimal nerf is just ridiculous. CCP should have brought the other weapon systems UP to where Hybrids are, not nerf them further to compensate for very poor and short sighted game design.

So, your position is that the Moros' power level is 'just right' for a dreadnaught? Interesting, because just about everyone previous to this nerf seemed to be of the opinion that it was too good.



What is the judge of it being "too good"? I can fly all Dreads except Caldari (i wonder why?) and of the 3 i fly, yes the Moros felt to me how a dread SHOULD perform. Its a Dreadnaught, they are supposed to bring heavy firepower onto the field.

It was always my hope that CCP would have figured out a means to bring the other Dreads up to where the Moros was currently sitting. They can't seem to ever get missiles right, they should have been spending a lot more time on the Phoenix or simply turn it into another Hybrid platform like the Moros.

This is one of the worst implemented "fixes" i have seen yet out of CCP.
Dawin4e
Merchant Union
#342 - 2013-05-19 08:43:32 UTC
Why spoil something that works well ? These changes lowered the Moros below the plinth - a need to enhance other dreadnoughts Moros leave as he is.
Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#343 - 2013-05-19 09:11:41 UTC
Yo i have owned moros and Erebus.
Capital Hubrid are over powered.

Good ridden's and FU

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#344 - 2013-05-19 09:26:53 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The Moros is still going to be a good ship, you know.


A Moros with Thorium Ammo currently does as much damage at 57km as a Revelation does with MultiFreq at 40. And at all other points does more damage than a Multifreq Rev. Removing some optimal and adding some falloff will mean that that will remain true.

At UV, the Revelation touches the Moros Thorium damage curve at around 50km, finally pushing past using Standard...
at which point the Moros rips back its lead by hopping up to Iridium.

Infrared gets beaten by Tungsten, Microwave and Iron are tied around the 60-70km range, with Iron being better at other ranges.

And finally, Iron v Radio, where the Revelation holds a comfortable lead in the 70-100km range, but still loses to the Moros's excellent falloff after 100km.



I think even with these Nerfs, the Moros isn't just going to be a good ship, it'll still be the best Dread for most purposes (I haven't compared it to the new Nag, because I cba to update pyfa on this laptop).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#345 - 2013-05-19 09:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Aprudena Gist wrote:
Are you ever going to fix citadel torps so they do full damage against all pos mods and not just the tower itself.


They fixed that years ago.

TBH, the Moros should not be getting increased falloff. Blasters are supposed to be short-ranged. This expectation of being able to use antimatter against a large online tower is absurd, it makes a mockery of the weapon ranges. If the Moros is the best at point-blank range, then it cannot be the best at 30-40 km also.
Tarithell
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#346 - 2013-05-19 10:15:02 UTC
Heh i like the part when someone from ccp asks us to tell them what we think but all the posts and feedbacks will be ignored, at the end nothing gonna change .. right Fozzie?
Angelhunter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#347 - 2013-05-19 10:21:01 UTC
Tarithell wrote:
Heh i like the part when someone from ccp asks us to tell them what we think but all the posts and feedbacks will be ignored, at the end nothing gonna change .. right Fozzie?



Well we can only keep at it if we want to see further changes. They did go back and revise some of the Battleship changes after players spoke. We basically have 3 views here.

Group A: HAHA Moros nerfed! Gallente sucks! aka the troll group

Group B: Why does my phoenix still suck?

Group C: Those of us who are actually providing constructive criticisms and trying to provide other options.


Group C just really needs to make themselves heard right now. The Moros changes hurt the most, but the rest of the changes are at best lackluster and a band-aid applied to a gaping wound. I would like to know what exactly CCP's vision of a dreadnaught is supposed to be?
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#348 - 2013-05-19 10:29:59 UTC
Angelhunter wrote:
Tarithell wrote:
Heh i like the part when someone from ccp asks us to tell them what we think but all the posts and feedbacks will be ignored, at the end nothing gonna change .. right Fozzie?



Well we can only keep at it if we want to see further changes. They did go back and revise some of the Battleship changes after players spoke. We basically have 3 views here.

Group A: HAHA Moros nerfed! Gallente sucks! aka the troll group

Group B: Why does my phoenix still suck?

Group C: Those of us who are actually providing constructive criticisms and trying to provide other options.


Group C just really needs to make themselves heard right now. The Moros changes hurt the most, but the rest of the changes are at best lackluster and a band-aid applied to a gaping wound. I would like to know what exactly CCP's vision of a dreadnaught is supposed to be?


Well i fall under all three of those Groups, I will welcome any Gallente nerf, want my phoenix buffed to usefulness, and i also provide legitimate coments

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Austin K'Pfor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#349 - 2013-05-19 10:38:35 UTC
This is not balance, this is control.

An MMO held in strict control isn't a sandbox.

Please be less about making the four races identical and more about making them different.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#350 - 2013-05-19 11:08:08 UTC
I wonder, is there still a reason to make dread completely immobile when in siege? Sure, their engines are shut off, but why that over 9000% increase in mass? Let the support fleet to make them move, those new attack battleships would be great in the role of "tugboats". Because just why not? This is a sandbox, and scripting the dreads to sit still in place is bad and boring.
kyrieee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2013-05-19 11:21:57 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
I wonder, is there still a reason to make dread completely immobile when in siege? Sure, their engines are shut off, but why that over 9000% increase in mass? Let the support fleet to make them move, those new attack battleships would be great in the role of "tugboats". Because just why not? This is a sandbox, and scripting the dreads to sit still in place is bad and boring.


The mass increase hasn't always been there, it was added three years ago. The reason it was added was because bumping dreads was way too easy, and since they have almost no tracking they need to be stationary to hit anything.
Elladia
I Have a Plan
Shadow Cartel
#352 - 2013-05-19 11:23:10 UTC
Excuse me while I actually calculate this instead of whining until someone else does :maths: for me and points me at the not so obvious.

I'll give you a a reflection of what you thought before posting your s*** :

Quote:
\(o.O)/

-15%
-10%

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

The simplified numbers seem to big! why so nerf! let's whine about it in a pure nonconstructive form.




“To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

You lot prove his point.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#353 - 2013-05-19 12:39:34 UTC
Base stats without skills are:
From 30k Optimal 15k Falloff
to 20k Optimal 25k Falloff

That means -%33 optimal +%66 falloff

There will be a small area where old one has a slight dps advantage (not more than 5%). Other than that XL blasters will be reaching even further.

Where's the nerf?
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#354 - 2013-05-19 12:41:51 UTC
ITT everyone is either a Moros owner saying it will kill EVE or a non-Moros owner saying it's a great change.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
badposting
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#355 - 2013-05-19 13:26:03 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Base stats without skills are:
From 30k Optimal 15k Falloff
to 20k Optimal 25k Falloff

That means -%33 optimal +%66 falloff

There will be a small area where old one has a slight dps advantage (not more than 5%). Other than that XL blasters will be reaching even further.

Where's the nerf?


You are bad, their optimal + falloff are both 45km, so they will do equal damage at 45km and the old blasters will do more damage at ranges shorter than that (not taking skill, mods and ammo into account obv.)
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#356 - 2013-05-19 13:41:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
And the new blasters will do more damage outside 45km, which isn't a particularly big deal, seeing as if you want to shoot something out at 50km+ you won't be planning on using a short-range dread loaded with short-range ammo.
Theron Gyrow
Icecream Audit Office
#357 - 2013-05-19 13:52:34 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
But, as I said, it's difficult to reconcile these number with Fozzie's statement of -3% DPS at 31 km with two TCs, so I don't know what's going on.


Without bothering to actually do the math, Fozzie's statement seems fine to me - IIRC at optimal + 1/2 falloff, you get about 90% of your optimal damage, so at roughly optimal + 1/4 falloff, 97% of the optimal damage feels accurate. Damage over range is an S-curve, after all.

For antimatter, losing 5km (*skills*modules) optimal but gaining 10km(*skills*modules) falloff is not a significant nerf, especially since the modules' effect on falloff is double their effect on optimal. This is more of a nerf to long-range ammos.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#358 - 2013-05-19 14:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
The thing is, as things stand at the moment, the Moros does vastly more DPS to any target than the other dreads, and the Phoenix does vastly less to everything except stationary capitals and structures, as anyone can tell with a quick check using any one of the fine DPS graphing tools available (such as EFT's graphing display, though even the 'paper DPS' in EFT will show most of what's going on). While it would be a sad thing if all dreads had the same 'shape' to their DPS (same tracking, same optimal & falloff, etc.), they all should do roughly the same DPS with some variation based on range, target velocity/transversal, and size. The Nag and Rev manage this, mostly. The Phoenix is hopelessly behind, and the Moros would be about right with a 20-30% nerf.

The same effect is seen with long-range weapons, though the Moros isn't quite as far ahead, but has much better DPS at range, whereas good long range DPS should be linked to poor short-medium range DPS - and so again a solid nerf to railgun DPS wouldn't kill it.

That's how much better the Moros is than the other dreads (in terms of applied damage).
Loki Feiht
Warcrows
Sedition.
#359 - 2013-05-19 14:05:26 UTC
Don't suppose this means more capital modules are in the pipeline?

More NPC - Randomly Generated Modular Content thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220858
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#360 - 2013-05-19 18:17:19 UTC
I dont really agree with the range nerf on the moros, the tracking nerf on the ships I am ok with. Though blapping is an issue with the turret ships.

As for the Nag fliers, it just got a crazy huge buff and is on par with the moros. Not only that, it will hit like a freight train with Arty as well.

The fact you all were taken off the missile system is a blessing and you all will not be happy till its the most powerful dread in the game along with your already amazing line up of ships.

Yet, the phoenix is still junk and the others are now drastically ahead of it. Naturally CCP will continue to leave it in the dust.

I am glad to see the Rev got some love.