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[Odyssey] X-L Weapons Balance

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Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#261 - 2013-05-18 07:05:52 UTC
Rroff wrote:
It will also skew autocannon optimal v blaster optimal with XL unless XL autocannons are also getting knocked back to 16000 base optimal. Also wondering if the reason XL blasters were pushed up to 30000 optimal originally has been forgotten/fixed or there could be some further issues relating to this.

I wonder what was the story about rehashing XL optimals back then? Why dont they even closely resemble ranges for sub-capital guns? And after this change XL autocannons and blaster would have almost identical optimals and falloffs. That is the only concern that bothers me. I dont want 2 guns with identical specs, and if it's something that's really needed - I'd like to see reasoning behind it.
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#262 - 2013-05-18 07:06:34 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
wallenbergaren wrote:
Nerfing the Moros tracking is fine, it could be nerfed more TBH, but why gut the optimal? You can't even hit a large POS in optimal with close range ammo now. Kind of silly IMO.


At 31km with antimatter and two range scripted TCs it loses 3% of its dps. Hardly crippling.


Hmm, im sad to see my moros nerfed, but have to agree it was overpowered compared to the rest. However ....

The only reason we are using Blasters now is because you fixed the range issues last year. Even with that fix, the Moros needs to warp very close to the the shield edge on a large POS by setting warp-to range between 25 and 32 km. To get in range now will require every Moros to warp right to the shield edge, which would be OK if it wasnt for the ******** bumping mechanics that will see half of the capital fleet flying off at ridiculous speed.

While I would dearly love to see the Moros remain unchanged I think if something must be nerfed then the tracking nerf is enough and the optimal range nerf is too much.

Honestly though, I think the Moros is about right for POS killing and the other dreads should be boosted to match it.

WTB : An image in my signature
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#263 - 2013-05-18 07:25:43 UTC
Misaka Todako wrote:
Hi CCP!

I know you guys are busy and doing a lot of awesome stuff to fix ships, but maybe give the Leviathan some love?
- Torps aren't overly viable since they have no falloff, and it's very easy to get bounced out of pos shot range. Since Titans already have to keep a wider bearth due to their giant collision radius, it's basically not possible to use them reliably, and packing a set of cruises with you burns most of your SMA. (Assuming you're even in refit range after the magical bump fest happens)
- We have no utility high
- Missiles can't hit stuff smaller than a moon
- We're heavily bonused into Kinetic, meaning we're totally ineffective against anything that's hardened against it. (Do they even make non-kinetic citadel missiles?)

While I realize there are other issues with Titans, I hope in this quick weapons balance pass, you could tweak the levi a little bit and give us something to chew on until a more complete balance pass hits titans.

Thanks!

Yes there is actual ammo of other damage types, but swapping to it is almost a 10k dps reduction.

Really wish they would move caldari off the kinetic bonus and just give them a straight RoF or damage bonus. Would go a long way to making the phoenix better as well.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#264 - 2013-05-18 07:26:54 UTC
Kossaw wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
wallenbergaren wrote:
Nerfing the Moros tracking is fine, it could be nerfed more TBH, but why gut the optimal? You can't even hit a large POS in optimal with close range ammo now. Kind of silly IMO.


At 31km with antimatter and two range scripted TCs it loses 3% of its dps. Hardly crippling.


Hmm, im sad to see my moros nerfed, but have to agree it was overpowered compared to the rest. However ....

The only reason we are using Blasters now is because you fixed the range issues last year. Even with that fix, the Moros needs to warp very close to the the shield edge on a large POS by setting warp-to range between 25 and 32 km. To get in range now will require every Moros to warp right to the shield edge, which would be OK if it wasnt for the ******** bumping mechanics that will see half of the capital fleet flying off at ridiculous speed.

While I would dearly love to see the Moros remain unchanged I think if something must be nerfed then the tracking nerf is enough and the optimal range nerf is too much.

Honestly though, I think the Moros is about right for POS killing and the other dreads should be boosted to match it.



I agree, they should give the range back, and increase other dreads to be with the moros. The phoenix needs alot of love.
Cyaron wars
Academia RED HOT Corporation
#265 - 2013-05-18 07:33:57 UTC
So this is 4th nerf moros gets starting from first nerf of drone damage years back. Just remove the ship class from the game and finish with it.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#266 - 2013-05-18 08:01:52 UTC
Cyaron wars wrote:
So this is 4th nerf moros gets starting from first nerf of drone damage years back. Just remove the ship class from the game and finish with it.


Its a good ship class. The range nerf wasnt needed, the tracking nerf was though, same with the others.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#267 - 2013-05-18 08:41:04 UTC
DRGaius Baltar wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Johnny thorir wrote:
RIP moros

It's still the best one tbh.

-15% Tracking, DO you even play this game?

yeah...it will still have the best tracking of all the dreads so... yeah, still the best

There is no Bob.

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CM Abimees
State War Academy
Caldari State
#268 - 2013-05-18 08:44:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lelob wrote:

Also, this is hilarious for titans. Not that they can hit **** anymore anyways, but why the hell would anyone even bother saving up for them anymore, other then to bridge?


Working as intended.



Death to supers.



Thats CCPs plan ... make them useless and then just remove. Too big and excpensive ships, every noob cant afford those so nopoint to keep in game. Money wise those ships are useless for CCP :DDDDD
F U
CM Kaamel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#269 - 2013-05-18 08:48:07 UTC
Why do you CCP newbs have to nerf thinks so hard. Cant you just buff bad stuff? Isnt it already enough you made suppers pretty much useless?
Isbariya
State War Academy
Caldari State
#270 - 2013-05-18 08:49:20 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Oh and maybe fix that shooting a pos shield doesnt require you to lock/shot the pos itself under it .That +20km realy hurts some weapon systems.

Now this, would be an epic change. It would make a huge amount of sense, look a hell of a lot better and open up some large changes to POS warfare.



Well do that and noone will use dreads anymore to kill a POS because then fighter bombers will be able to hit it, too.
Kerdrak
Querry Moon
#271 - 2013-05-18 09:00:19 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Oh and maybe fix that shooting a pos shield doesnt require you to lock/shot the pos itself under it .That +20km realy hurts some weapon systems.

Now this, would be an epic change. It would make a huge amount of sense, look a hell of a lot better and open up some large changes to POS warfare.


Indeed, shooting the forcefield directly would have much more sense and more realistic. But I bet that would require of some programming skills while balancing is only changing integers Sad
Crash Me
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2013-05-18 09:00:39 UTC
Isbariya wrote:
Mr Floydy wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Oh and maybe fix that shooting a pos shield doesnt require you to lock/shot the pos itself under it .That +20km realy hurts some weapon systems.

Now this, would be an epic change. It would make a huge amount of sense, look a hell of a lot better and open up some large changes to POS warfare.



Well do that and noone will use dreads anymore to kill a POS because then fighter bombers will be able to hit it, too.



I´d love that. It´d make supper carriers more usefull. As by CCPs given purpose for suppers atm is the "structure shooting"!
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#273 - 2013-05-18 09:00:41 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Oh yeah about the phoenix, how about dropping the kinetic bonus and swap with a Rate of fire or damage bonus to all, so its not limited to being great against weak kinetic pos.

Also buff the citadel missiles a bit or give the ship a bonus to Explosion Velocity.

Phoenix is still lacking alot and is the worst of the 4 dreads by far.


If they change it to get an ROF bonus can it PLEASE get more space to hold missiles in the launcher?
The main issues I have heard about missiles is that they don't do full damage on anything that can move and that during large capital fights their DPS might as well be zero because the stacks of smartbombs everywhere kill all your missiles.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#274 - 2013-05-18 09:26:51 UTC
Phoenix:

Caldari Dreadnought Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Citadel Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
+10% bonus to Citadel Cruise and Torpedo Explosion Velocity per level (+5% bonus to Citadel Cruise and Torpedo kinetic damage per level removed)

Slot layout: 4H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets , 3 launchers
Fittings: 450,000 PWG, 875 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 200,000(+12,500) / 150,000(-6,250) / 180,000 (-7,500)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate) : 50,000(+1,250)GJ / 3,500(-32.559)s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 60msec / 0.03(-0.009)x / 1,200,000,000(-150,000,000)kg
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 115km / 45mm / 7
Sensor strength: 50(+2) Gravimetric
Signature radius: 3000(-100)m

I think this could be a good first step to making the Phoenix better and then fix its weapon system up a bit aswell.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
JetCord
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#275 - 2013-05-18 09:39:10 UTC
Shocked

give the moros back its 10 km optimal as basically now moros need to kiss the pos shield
Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#276 - 2013-05-18 09:43:55 UTC
Want to balance dreads?

1) Phoenix is really broken

- remove kinetic damage bonus
+ give generic damage bonus
+ improve exp velocity and reduce exp radius

2) Reveletion can receive a little boost

+ optimal boost seems good
+might consider to reduce cap bonus on weapon and give more cap regen on the ships this is a hidden boost for jumoing/tanking and countering bhaalgorn

3) naglfar, yeah finally ccp fixed the split weapon system...lets not nerf it 1 month later..mmmh ok?

4) moros, right now the most popular could use some change like a lesser track nerf.

- 5/10 % track
Want to nerf optimal too? giving moros less optimal than auto??? give @ least 2km falloff for each km of optimal u cut.
Hitting chance is 100% @ optimal, 50% @ optimal + falloff, 0% @ optimal + 2x falloff
Moros is good only under 40km and this is where u need tracking, u can't nerf damage projection AND tracking in the same patch.
Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#277 - 2013-05-18 09:51:28 UTC
Also you can't fix blap dreads this way.
A someone allread said blap dreads shoot a 3 x webbed, scrambled and painted target.
The solution is in web stacking penalty ( huge change to all gameplay mechanic ) and in signature malus formula of x-l weapons
Dreads disappeared after super EHP boost, now they come back.
A nerf to moros and nag will reduce again dreads use.
WFT about considering a fix on Aeon having more EHP of titans?
G0hme
Illusion of Flight
#278 - 2013-05-18 10:04:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello once again everyone. We've got a small package of tweaks to capital weapons to announce, intended to help bring us a little bit closer to balance between the different dreadnoughts.

For the most part you all know the major balance problems with the class, the relative dominance of the Moros and the fact that the Phoenix has extreme difficulty applying damage to moving targets, even a moving carrier. These changes apply directly to the capital blasters, autocannons and pulse lasers, as well as to the siege modules themselves.

These changes are not expected to bring the class into perfect balance, but it should be a step in the right direction and be something we can build upon as we go forward.

X-L Blasters: -15% tracking, -10km optimal, +10km falloff

X-L Autocannons: -10% tracking

X-L Pulses: +6.666% optimal

Citadel missiles: Remove the explosion velocity penalty from siege modules

Let us know what you think!



As a frequent Moros user I know this is a neccesary change, thanks for bringing it in line with the rest of the Dreads. However, I'd like to see the mineral cost swapped between carriers and dreads. As Carrier is a high versatile platform contra the Dread which once it hits that Red Sexy Button, usually is assumed to be lost when deployed in Empire.

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Got NPC API removed from Wormhole Space.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#279 - 2013-05-18 10:16:09 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Losing 10 km optimal and gaining 10 km falloff takes optimal from 33 km to 23 km, and falloff from 15 km to 25 km. Add skills - gives 28.75 km and 31.25 km. Add antimatter, gives 14.4 km optimal, 31.25 km falloff. Net result: no change to DPS at 31 km.

But this doesn't match Fozzie's statement of losing 3% DPS at 31 km with two TCs, so I dunno what's going on, lol.


Your maths is a little bit off. You have taken the current 21km optimal with antimatter and no tracking mods, used tracking mods to get it up to 33, then subtracted 10. To get the correct figure you need to start with 21, subtract 10, THEN apply the tracking mods (which brings you close to 15km).

At best tracking modules give about 1.5x the optimal. Currently that is 1.5 * 21 = 30 (roughly). After the changes it will be 1.5 * 11 = 15 (roughly).


No, I didn't use any tracking mods. I used the base module stats of a meta Ion Siege Blaster: optimal 33 km, falloff 15 km. Applying the changes of -10 km optimal and +10 km falloff to those gives optimal 23 km, falloff 25 km. Now add skills: optimal 28.8 km, falloff 31.3 km. Now add antimatter: optimal 14.4 km, falloff 31.3 km. If you use a T1 gun you have an optimal of 12.5 km instead.

But, as I said, it's difficult to reconcile these number with Fozzie's statement of -3% DPS at 31 km with two TCs, so I don't know what's going on.
BlackHole31
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#280 - 2013-05-18 10:55:16 UTC
Please don't nerf the new Naglfar !

And please pay our useless minmatar skills back : Citadel Cruise Missiles and Citadel Torpedoes ( Skill Points and Iskes ! )

I won't fly in a Phoenix or in a Leviathan.
I don't need these skills anymore.

You have modified the ship, so plz PAY BACK !!!!!!!!!!!!