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[Odyssey] X-L Weapons Balance

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Captain Semper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#201 - 2013-05-17 22:22:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello once again everyone. We've got a small package of tweaks to capital weapons to announce, intended

X-L Blasters: -15% tracking, -10km optimal, +10km falloff

Let us know what you think!

Is it joke? For real CCP!

You make Neglf most DPS dread. MOST! He making tonn of damage with new bonus. And you nerf moros MORE? Just delete all other dreads from game it change nothing. People will take naglf.

You know that "new" moros cant even do normal dps to Large control tower? For now moros have 20+20 with AM X-L charges.
And will have 10+30. Its just half of his total dps - ~5-6k in siege. And lets take a look at naglf:
20+39... Autocan have MORE optimal than blaster. What the hell is that? So make that doctrine to all autocan! Let's delete blasters (hardest weapon in game to deal "tonns of damage") from the game...
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#202 - 2013-05-17 22:25:53 UTC
Captain Semper wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello once again everyone. We've got a small package of tweaks to capital weapons to announce, intended

X-L Blasters: -15% tracking, -10km optimal, +10km falloff

Let us know what you think!

Is it joke? For real CCP!

You make Neglf most DPS dread. MOST! He making tonn of damage with new bonus. And you nerf moros MORE? Just delete all other dreads from game it change nothing. People will take naglf.

You know that "new" moros cant even do normal dps to Large control tower? For now moros have 20+20 with AM X-L charges.
And will have 10+30. Its just half of hes total dps - ~5-6k in siege. And lets take a look at naglf:
20+39... Autocan have MORE optimal than blaster. What the hell is that? So make that doctrine to all autocan! Let's delete blasters (hardest weapon in game to deal "tonns of damage") from the game...


What the **** are you blabbering about? Nag still has 15% less DPS than Moros.
Isaiah Harms
State War Academy
Caldari State
#203 - 2013-05-17 22:27:22 UTC
Super capital pilots are rejoicing! The lowsec T-Rex is declawed. Less damage AND less range to threaten their supremacy.
Captain Semper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#204 - 2013-05-17 22:28:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
Grarr Dexx wrote:


What the **** are you blabbering about? Nag still has 15% less DPS than Moros.

Potential dps... With 20+20 you do less damage than nagl to large control tower.
And ofc damage TYPE. Nagl have choise. Moros - not.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#205 - 2013-05-17 22:31:28 UTC
Makalu Zarya wrote:
So galente are still best at something...caps and supers, cause quite honestly everything else still sucks, apart from a few select ships. Medium blasters and rails are still worthless compared to any other platform. Small are fine, but they are smalls, who really cares. Larges are really only a viable platform on a non-gal ship, which makes me rather sad.

While the moros nerf, now that I looked more closely at the math still leaves it as the best dread, the gap from moros to say rev is now much narrower than the gap between amarr bs and galente bs, which honestly no one really flies seriously. Now this might change with the upcoming domi which seems to be op, but I doubt much will change with the rest. Time will tell what works and what doesn't.

Next thing you are gonna nerf the nyx right? cause clearly it's op as well and people should fly Hels.

Song seems relevant again - https://soundcloud.com/sindel-pellion/makalu-cries

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2013-05-17 22:37:53 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Lelob wrote:
Ouch!

Nobody will be training for the minnie dread now. The whole point was that it would be excellent tracking but now why even bother. Will remain unused with such a heavy handed nerf.
Nobody except all of PL. Work on your propaganda.

Lelob wrote:
The moros nerf is especially hard. I'd suggest an optimal nerf of -5 to -7km, while mantaining the falloff bonus, and not touching the tracking.
The tracking IS the major problem on the Moros. The optimal and falloff were high for a "close range" weapon, but -5/+5 would have probably sufficed.

Lelob wrote:
Dreads and especially titans don't track for **** without tp's or webs unless shooting at bc's or drakes so I simply don't understand this nerf. These are not being over-used or abused and seem like they're fufilling a good niche to counter sub-caps. This simply takes another tool out of the hand to counter massive bs or bc blobs with such a heavy-handed nerf.
Imagine this: Titans and Dreads, being capitals, are supported by a smaller, more agile fleet. Not a fleet of capitals, mind you. Perhaps a fleet of sub-capitals. Ships that support the big one in doing its job. Not everyone drops 50 Supers on frig, or thinks "Hey we have a fleet of subcaps to kill here....get the Titans spooled up."

#PLProblems


Blasters NEED the increased range to even have a hope of doing dps. It's why hybrids had to be so heavily buffed in the first place because "close-range" guns in the past were "**** that" guns. The reality is that the moros desperately needs the range to be able to use antimatter XL. The russian guy was right in saying that these changes are stupid because nobody will want to use antimatter XL anymore, which is pretty well what made the moros worth flying.

Also LOL, caps are only good vs caps? What kind of ******* ******** idea is that. All that does is force people into huge blobby coalitions, which having been one for the last 6-9 months, I do not want to have to do that again. People need force multipliers against blobs, and there's only so much flying in bombers until it gets very, very dull.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#207 - 2013-05-17 22:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelob
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Captain Semper wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello once again everyone. We've got a small package of tweaks to capital weapons to announce, intended

X-L Blasters: -15% tracking, -10km optimal, +10km falloff

Let us know what you think!

Is it joke? For real CCP!

You make Neglf most DPS dread. MOST! He making tonn of damage with new bonus. And you nerf moros MORE? Just delete all other dreads from game it change nothing. People will take naglf.

You know that "new" moros cant even do normal dps to Large control tower? For now moros have 20+20 with AM X-L charges.
And will have 10+30. Its just half of hes total dps - ~5-6k in siege. And lets take a look at naglf:
20+39... Autocan have MORE optimal than blaster. What the hell is that? So make that doctrine to all autocan! Let's delete blasters (hardest weapon in game to deal "tonns of damage") from the game...


What the **** are you blabbering about? Nag still has 15% less DPS than Moros.


he's talking about damage projection, which is desperately needed. A moros will have difficulties tracking anything, no matter how webbed or painted within 10km, so having an optimal of only 10km is just stupid. Essentially this change makes antimatter XL useless.

Also, this is hilarious for titans. Not that they can hit **** anymore anyways, but why the hell would anyone even bother saving up for them anymore, other then to bridge?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#208 - 2013-05-17 22:52:49 UTC
Lelob wrote:

Also, this is hilarious for titans. Not that they can hit **** anymore anyways, but why the hell would anyone even bother saving up for them anymore, other then to bridge?


Working as intended.



Death to supers.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#209 - 2013-05-17 22:52:52 UTC
Lelob wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Captain Semper wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello once again everyone. We've got a small package of tweaks to capital weapons to announce, intended

X-L Blasters: -15% tracking, -10km optimal, +10km falloff

Let us know what you think!

Is it joke? For real CCP!

You make Neglf most DPS dread. MOST! He making tonn of damage with new bonus. And you nerf moros MORE? Just delete all other dreads from game it change nothing. People will take naglf.

You know that "new" moros cant even do normal dps to Large control tower? For now moros have 20+20 with AM X-L charges.
And will have 10+30. Its just half of hes total dps - ~5-6k in siege. And lets take a look at naglf:
20+39... Autocan have MORE optimal than blaster. What the hell is that? So make that doctrine to all autocan! Let's delete blasters (hardest weapon in game to deal "tonns of damage") from the game...


What the **** are you blabbering about? Nag still has 15% less DPS than Moros.


he's talking about damage projection, which is desperately needed. A moros will have difficulties tracking anything, no matter how webbed or painted within 10km, so having an optimal of only 10km is just stupid. Essentially this change makes antimatter XL useless.

Also, this is hilarious for titans. Not that they can hit **** anymore anyways, but why the hell would anyone even bother saving up for them anymore, other then to bridge?


Why the **** would you need anything else than a bridge and amazing gang bonuses?
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#210 - 2013-05-17 22:53:45 UTC
I make Moros antimatter range without range mods going from 21/19 km to 14/31 km. Dunno where this 10 km whining is coming from.
Cyrus Alabel
Azure Wrath
#211 - 2013-05-17 22:59:08 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

X-L Blasters: -15% tracking, -10km optimal, +10km falloff


CCP design meeting: "Is anyone flying Gallente, and if so, how can we stop them?"

The Moros was in dire need of a nerf, no question, but that optimal nerf is going to kill the damage projection was the saving grace of the boat. Now you can't even hit a damn pos tower without sitting right on top of the shield.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#212 - 2013-05-17 23:01:34 UTC
these changes balance out the 3 turret dreads reasonably.
rev still needs a DPS buff and moros still needs a DPS nerf tho.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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waferzankko
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#213 - 2013-05-17 23:08:17 UTC
its about time, now i can sell my stack of revs.
AndromacheDarkstar
Integrated Insterstellar Holdings
#214 - 2013-05-17 23:14:10 UTC
Playing for 4 years, ordered my first dread a couple of weeks back. Guess what I went for.
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Fraternity.
#215 - 2013-05-17 23:29:59 UTC
This change has come a bit out of the blue, is it part of preparing to make a dreadnought balancing swoop? I thought t2 subcaps were going to be the next ships given some love.

Anyway... people should realise that this change is ONLY happening to the guns and not the ships themselves, I think that this change should go some way to bringing the capital weapon systems more into line with each other.

People saying the blaster range reduction is going to cripple their moros should:

1. Consider bringing a different dread to a POS bash
2. Stop using them for PVE
3. Learn to use different ammo types.
4. Bring more utility for support.

Weapon systems aside though, I do think dreads need looking at quite soon, because outside of wormholes (where they are extremely useful in all their roles from PVP, PVE and POS bashing), dreads seem to be in the midst of an identity crisis for a number of reasons.

As POS bashers they stand second only to supercaps.
As PVE boats, their usefulness in that last room in your 10/10, and in higher class wormholes is undeniable.
In PVP, they're able to stand up against battleship fleets and turn the tide of a small skirmish in low-sec or the fringes of null...

The problem with dreads... is when it comes to their utility as cap hunters... this utility is greatly reduced by the amount of tank they can field (whilst still having reasonable DPS), their immobility, sig-radius, and also their susceptibility to counter dropping. When dreads are brought in to counter slow-cats for instance, they're almost always counter dropped with more supercaps.

Supercaps against dreads is one of the strongest and most pronounced hard counters in the game and this is why carrier based doctrines are so prevalent in EVE right now... slow-cats, boot-fleet, Ghost-riders, etc... no-one would dare drop dreads onto any of these fleet doctrines for fear of counter drop.

In my eyes, this fear, coupled with a lack of dread ability in the capital arena, is why big battleship fights don't turn into supercapital fights as often as we might like... there is no steady transition of escalating offence.

I've already said too much so...

tl;dr: Changes look good but please look at dreads soon and buff their effectiveness against other caps.
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#216 - 2013-05-17 23:31:26 UTC
RIP MOROS

Nerfing the few good things gallente has, Fozzie must be an amarr supremacist.

but seriously the numbers look pretty harsh for the ion blasters. Optimal range nerf and tracking, so now you have to be closer to a target with less tracking. Always thought the balance to the XL blasters was the platforms they're on are inferiorly tanked compared to the others Erebus VS Avatar and Moros VS Revelation.

Simply because the sandbox favors one toy over another does not mean it needs to be defecated on so the other toys become more popular, It would be a better idea to remove the defecation from the other toys so they're more liked.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#217 - 2013-05-17 23:38:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Enochia Starr wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Enochia Starr wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Johnny thorir wrote:
RIP moros


It's still the best one tbh.



Stop trying to fix things that are perfectly fine now..

Now you've just ruined lowsec fights, thanks m8.

RIP EVE


lol, not being able to own everything as reliably with dropping dreads ruins low sec pvp? Terrible.



Says Shadow Cartel who uses blap dreads like they're going out of style

Yep.


Yet none of us are claiming that their nerfing is the bane of low sec pvp ^^


Edit: Also EVERYONE in the entire eve universe accepts that the Moros was by FAR the best dread for anything not related to shooting structures for hours.. Yet somehow nerfing it is a bad thing? :P

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#218 - 2013-05-17 23:39:40 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
RIP MOROS

Nerfing the few good things gallente has, Fozzie must be an amarr supremacist.

but seriously the numbers look pretty harsh for the ion blasters. Optimal range nerf and tracking, so now you have to be closer to a target with less tracking. Always thought the balance to the XL blasters was the platforms they're on are inferiorly tanked compared to the others Erebus VS Avatar and Moros VS Revelation.

Simply because the sandbox favors one toy over another does not mean it needs to be defecated on so the other toys become more popular, It would be a better idea to remove the defecation from the other toys so they're more liked.


For being an Amarr supremacist, he sure doesn't seem to be showing it. A resistance nerf on the Abaddon, Archon, Aeon, Damnation, Absolution, and all other resistance bonused hulls. And the Revelation still has 30% less damage than the Moros and 15% less than the Naglfar.
DRGaius Baltar
Perkone
Caldari State
#219 - 2013-05-17 23:40:12 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Johnny thorir wrote:
RIP moros


It's still the best one tbh.


-15% Tracking, DO you even play this game?
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#220 - 2013-05-17 23:41:22 UTC
DRGaius Baltar wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Johnny thorir wrote:
RIP moros


It's still the best one tbh.


-15% Tracking, DO you even play this game?


It's still not going to miss its intended targets.