These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Resource Shakeup in Odyssey: Just don’t call it a Cataclysm + Companion blog

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#921 - 2013-05-14 14:44:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
CCP Fozzie wrote:
MT Sackett wrote:
Ok I think I have read every post in dozens and dozens of pages in several threads, I have yet to see a CCP comment or reason on making the grav sites into anoms. There are plenty of ores in belts to mine in all but wormholes, so its not a lack of mining areas. Wanting to make wormhole mining easier ? Worm hole life is supposed to be hard. Wanting to make more parts of game easy to acess? Well if that is the reason, wow. How about putting on a probing module and go look. Exploring is supposed to be a bigger deal ? Now the grav sites will be on your screen and one click away ? That is not exploring.

What is the purpose of the change of grav sites to anoms ?

Thanks



We'd rather have the challenge provided by other players than by us.

Sorry Fozzie, but that makes no sense to me.

How is dumbing down that part of the game an answer to anything?

The challenge to miners will now be finding creative ways to avoid gankers? As with this change even the dumbest gankers, with zero scanning skills, can find any gravametric anomaly with a single click? While I agree EVE is meant to ba a harsh place, and there is really no need to discourage ganking as it contribute to the hostile environment. But promoting ganking will do far more harm than good.

look at Age of Conan for example. Hyboria is a harsh world, the developers there decided promoting ganking would enhance the danger of that world, but as a result the game became nothing more than a gankfest and spawn camping. The game died as a result.

Gankers are not loyal players, they will go where the easy PVP is. They do not care about the experience of other players, infact they go out of their way the ruin the game experience for newer and weaker players. Is this what you want to promote??

Harvesting tears should not be the focus of EVE. Not if you want to see continued success. I am not saying you should try to hinder ganking, but do not encourage or promote it. Gankers are the lowest form of PVPer, and require no encouragement to cause other players to suffer, they do it for the tears, not the in game rewards. If you want to keep the gankers subing, you need to keep their targets in abundance.

When the gankers run out of targets they will leave. If the targets grow and become more abundant, then the number of gankers will also grow, the game as a whole will grow. The best way to keep the gankers around is to promote the activities of the common ganker targets. Give the gankers more targets, they will not leave just because they must put some effort into finding those targets.

However by giving the gankers more targets, I do not mean making targets easier to find. removing that challenge is the wrong move. Game mechanics that will cause a large increase in null sec industrial characters will generate far more targets for the gankers than making the few targets there are easier to find. While at the same time will seem to be a change more for the benefit of the nullbears. So everybody wins.

I was hoping for a response to my other post, here but you seem to just avoid the question each time it comes up. And I am not the only one asking it.

So far the only players that have supported the idea of moving grave sites to anomalies are the gankers. Every post I have read by players this change actually affects, across what 6 threads now, has been against this change. There is a reason for it. you seem to be missing the point. But have not stated a point from CCPs side as the why this change was needed.

If the current grav site mechanics are to limiting, then change those mechanics. Currently grav sites, especially the largest grav sites are the hardest signatures to find. Make them easier to find, increase their base signature, even to the point of being able to lock down the signature at 4 or 8 AU with good skills and probes, but leave them as grav sites, keep probes as a requirement to find them. If gankers want to gank these miners, they must use probes to find them, but if they have probes, finding them could be much easier than it is now.

It would be fine if a pilot with good scanning skills could find a site in seconds using probes. This adds risk, while still leaving some form of mitigation, but allowing for anyone to find the sites instantly without the use of probes is just going to far in the wrong direction. Not only are you dumbing down the exploration feature, but this will turn null sec mining into a bigger gankfest than high sec mining. Even a ganker enjoys the hunt, making that hunt to easy is a loss of content and game play for both sides.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#922 - 2013-05-14 15:30:50 UTC
every supercap owner was against supercap balancing too

98 of 100 titan owners want to have their aoe dd restored, guess we best do that
xP0nYx
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#923 - 2013-05-14 16:12:06 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Soko99 wrote:
TijsseN wrote:
As an PVP player i see opportunities for more fights if more mining is done in unsafe space. instead of the lonely miner or ratter, which is pos'ed up when a roaming gang arrives, would love to engage an organized mining op with backup. At least I know where the fights will be post odyssey.



We would all love to see that.. except there won't be organized mining ops with backup.. Just how often has your own corp assigned 10-15 pilots to guard the miners in null?


^^ THIS IS THE BIG PROBLEM.

PVPers do not and will not sit in a belt baby sitting miners just in case a gank fleet shows up.

How many times have goonswarm PVPers shown up to protect miners in there space? More likely they will show up to gank their own blues just because they are mining, than actually protect them.

This change will not result in large mining fleets with escorts for null sec gankers to hunt down. It will result in a massive drop in null sec mining, and a massive increase in the value of high end minerals. once the turbulence in gone and every thing settles out null sec mining may be one of the highest income activities in game as it will have to be to of set the risk enough for nullbears to risk the constant ganks in such an easily accessed belt.

Not that miners having a high income is a problem, but when that high income is a result of excessively high prices for high end minerals we will see a much wider gap between established characters and new characters trying to get a foot hold. This goes against the goal of making EVE more accessible for new players.

Why put this added risk on the null sec miners? the rewards for null sec miners are not currently high compared to the risk. If it was we would see far more miners in null sec than we currently do. Drastically increasing the risk while only slightly increasing the reward will not draw new miners into null, but it likely will drive some existing null sec miners out. No matter hopw you look at it this change is a drastic increase in risk for null sec miners. If this is CCPs idea of encouraging null sec industry then someone needs a smack upside the head.

In order for this to work players have to play the game the way CCP envisions it, large mining ops, supported by large PVP fleets for protection. Sounds great, except that the PVPers are not going to be forced into this role of babysitting the nullbear miners. Without those PVP babysitters null sec mining will have a risk vs reward comparable to what we currently see in low sec, how much mining happens there? If null sec mining drops off so will the supply of high end minerals. What happens to EVE when the bottleneck of high end minerals stops a large amount of high sec production? CCP can not dictate to players how to play the game. Trying to force players into these roles will not end well.



just to one thing clear. this anom changes wont have any effect on 0.0 mining. cuz as soon as a neutral pops up in local you warp to pos anyways. you usually dont wait till u see probes cuz the guy could have a blue warp in or a bookmark. we live in the times of awoxers and so on. in WH on the other hand, im sorry for u guys you are pretty much screwed with this. there are a lot of ways in 0.0 to avoid getting caught by any kind of neutral. for example: if a neut is in sys stay under pos or docked. if u keep this rule in mind its hard to get caught in the first place. make sure you get your mining ship into warp under 12 seconds, so as soon as a neut comes in, you start warping and will be in warp before most ships can be at your position.
Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#924 - 2013-05-14 16:46:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
MT Sackett wrote:
Ok I think I have read every post in dozens and dozens of pages in several threads, I have yet to see a CCP comment or reason on making the grav sites into anoms. There are plenty of ores in belts to mine in all but wormholes, so its not a lack of mining areas. Wanting to make wormhole mining easier ? Worm hole life is supposed to be hard. Wanting to make more parts of game easy to acess? Well if that is the reason, wow. How about putting on a probing module and go look. Exploring is supposed to be a bigger deal ? Now the grav sites will be on your screen and one click away ? That is not exploring.

What is the purpose of the change of grav sites to anoms ?

Thanks



We'd rather have the challenge provided by other players than by us.


The problem I see is that if you shift the equation too much in the favor of the predator you will reduce the supply of prey,

This is exactly why I think the changes to combat anoms are so poorly conceived as it's based on the same faulty logic that has so many people calling for moving L4's to low sec.

Increase the risk too much and people will find alternative activities and the only ones that continue in said activities will be those most prepared. This is why hunters use blinds and try to remain silent, because it's damned hard to bag a deer that has heard humans in the area, they'll be skittish and quick to bolt. Where as if they feel secure and safe they'll just stand around doing their things.

Having grav sites so that they had to be probed down provided a heightened sense of security to those who mined in them. This heightened sense of security would tend to make them slower to react to danger which in turn provided opportunities that skilled predators could take advantage of.

If you really want to increase the amount of conflict, then you need to create greater incentives for people to have their ships in space. Preferably low or null space. You also have to give the prey a fighting chance otherwise you end up with a situation where they are hunted to extinction which in this case means players cease engaging in the dangerous activity.

Consider Forsaken hubs, you think the problem is that they are too easy which prevents other anoms from being used, so rather than adjust the other anoms to be more similar to the popular forsaken hubs you change the forsaken hubs to suck just as much as the others. You do this without understanding why Forsakens are so popular a choice in the first place, you seem to think it's the lack of scrams that are their primary draw, while the thing that actually makes the other anoms unpopular is not the scram part but the fact that you can not effectively engage frigates with the ships required to tank them or the weapon systems most suitable for dealing with larger ships.

The lack of scramblers is a nice bonus but it's not the reason why people avoid the other anoms. Don't believe me, leave the frigates out and put warp disruptors on the dire cruisers and see if that changes which anoms are used the most.

The problem is that for the most part mission rats orbit at long range, requiring the use of long range weaponry/ammo that is poorly suited for use against close orbiting high speed targets (frigates) the AI changes further complicated matters because it effectively removed the traditional counter for frigates in PVE content, since drones are on the KOS list of the rats they are extremely difficult to use to deal with rats that can get in under those long range weapon systems that are required to engage the cruisers and above.

The hub change will not cause people to team up to make poorer rewards than they could get running L4's in high sec (which is actually pretty pathetic isk/hr if you don't play the LP market) They will move to other activities (high sec L4 alts for example) which will make null even more of a ghost town than it normally is.


What you should be doing is figuring out ways to increase the numbers of ships flying in space. Remove the frigates from more anoms, increase the bounties on the frigates in the lower level anoms so that there is some incentive to run them. Hell why not be able to make decent isk/hour on all those little frig heavy anoms, give people the option to speed boat them in smaller ships built specifically to fight frigates. Would it really be all that horrible if a newer player in rifter could make 10 mil or so a tick running the basic anoms?

As it stands now a fully upgraded system in null can support 2-3 ratters. 2-3 while there are what 20+ anoms in those systems that are being ignored because they just aren't worth messing with. If those other anoms were changed to make them more attractive then you'd have more pilots in null earning their isk, creating more targets for the roaming gangs to hunt. Driving more conflict and generating more content.


Not to mention the fact that making the content more difficult introduces a selection bias towards harder to kill prey, So not only will the change to Forsaken hubs decrease the number of potential targets it will result in those remaining targets being better prepared and harder to catch/kill.
xP0nYx
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#925 - 2013-05-14 17:08:14 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
MT Sackett wrote:
Ok I think I have read every post in dozens and dozens of pages in several threads, I have yet to see a CCP comment or reason on making the grav sites into anoms. There are plenty of ores in belts to mine in all but wormholes, so its not a lack of mining areas. Wanting to make wormhole mining easier ? Worm hole life is supposed to be hard. Wanting to make more parts of game easy to acess? Well if that is the reason, wow. How about putting on a probing module and go look. Exploring is supposed to be a bigger deal ? Now the grav sites will be on your screen and one click away ? That is not exploring.

What is the purpose of the change of grav sites to anoms ?

Thanks



We'd rather have the challenge provided by other players than by us.


The problem I see is that if you shift the equation too much in the favor of the predator you will reduce the supply of prey,

This is exactly why I think the changes to combat anoms are so poorly conceived as it's based on the same faulty logic that has so many people calling for moving L4's to low sec.

Increase the risk too much and people will find alternative activities and the only ones that continue in said activities will be those most prepared. This is why hunters use blinds and try to remain silent, because it's damned hard to bag a deer that has heard humans in the area, they'll be skittish and quick to bolt. Where as if they feel secure and safe they'll just stand around doing their things.

Having grav sites so that they had to be probed down provided a heightened sense of security to those who mined in them. This heightened sense of security would tend to make them slower to react to danger which in turn provided opportunities that skilled predators could take advantage of.

If you really want to increase the amount of conflict, then you need to create greater incentives for people to have their ships in space. Preferably low or null space. You also have to give the prey a fighting chance otherwise you end up with a situation where they are hunted to extinction which in this case means players cease engaging in the dangerous activity.

Consider Forsaken hubs, you think the problem is that they are too easy which prevents other anoms from being used, so rather than adjust the other anoms to be more similar to the popular forsaken hubs you change the forsaken hubs to suck just as much as the others. You do this without understanding why Forsakens are so popular a choice in the first place, you seem to think it's the lack of scrams that are their primary draw, while the thing that actually makes the other anoms unpopular is not the scram part but the fact that you can not effectively engage frigates with the ships required to tank them or the weapon systems most suitable for dealing with larger ships.

The lack of scramblers is a nice bonus but it's not the reason why people avoid the other anoms. Don't believe me, leave the frigates out and put warp disruptors on the dire cruisers and see if that changes which anoms are used the most.

The problem is that for the most part mission rats orbit at long range, requiring the use of long range weaponry/ammo that is poorly suited for use against close orbiting high speed targets (frigates) the AI changes further complicated matters because it effectively removed the traditional counter for frigates in PVE content, since drones are on the KOS list of the rats they are extremely difficult to use to deal with rats that can get in under those long range weapon systems that are required to engage the cruisers and above.

The hub change will not cause people to team up to make poorer rewards than they could get running L4's in high sec (which is actually pretty pathetic isk/hr if you don't play the LP market) They will move to other activities (high sec L4 alts for example) which will make null even more of a ghost town than it normally is.


What you should be doing is figuring out ways to increase the numbers of ships flying in space. Remove the frigates from more anoms, increase the bounties on the frigates in the lower level anoms so that there is some incentive to run them. Hell why not be able to make decent isk/hour on all those little frig heavy anoms, give people the option to speed boat them in smaller ships built specifically to fight frigates. Would it really be all that horrible if a newer player in rifter could make 10 mil or so a tick running the basic anoms?

As it stands now a fully upgraded system in null can support 2-3 ratters. 2-3 while there are what 20+ anoms in those systems that are being ignored because they just aren't worth messing with. If those other anoms were changed to make them more attractive then you'd have more pilots in null earning their isk, creating more targets for the roaming gangs to hunt. Driving more conflict and generating more content.


Not to mention the fact that making the content more difficult introduces a selection bias towards harder to kill prey, So not only will the change to Forsaken hubs decrease the number of potential targets it will result in those remaining targets being better prepared and harder to catch/kill.


plz listen to this guy he knows what hes talking about. thats the reason why our ratters only take forsaken hubs.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#926 - 2013-05-14 17:10:06 UTC
Risk vs Reward, carebears just want the reward. Anyway the more you cry the more EvE Online grows, so keep on crying.

The Tears Must Flow
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#927 - 2013-05-14 17:21:32 UTC
Xylorn Hasher wrote:


There is a big problem. This change will kill mining in WH. As they will have completly no chancess to escape.



If your wh mining op security relies on seeing probes on dscan and then warping out, you are doing it terribly wrong.

.
MT Sackett
Looksee Lightbringers
#928 - 2013-05-14 19:03:54 UTC  |  Edited by: MT Sackett
CCP Fozzie wrote:
MT Sackett wrote:
Ok I think I have read every post in dozens and dozens of pages in several threads, I have yet to see a CCP comment or reason on making the grav sites into anoms. There are plenty of ores in belts to mine in all but wormholes, so its not a lack of mining areas. Wanting to make wormhole mining easier ? Worm hole life is supposed to be hard. Wanting to make more parts of game easy to acess? Well if that is the reason, wow. How about putting on a probing module and go look. Exploring is supposed to be a bigger deal ? Now the grav sites will be on your screen and one click away ? That is not exploring.

What is the purpose of the change of grav sites to anoms ?

Thanks



We'd rather have the challenge provided by other players than by us.




Hmm, not trying to be difficult but I am now more confused than ever. Grav sites will be a click, and warp to site. Not much challenge from any one in that or to explore them.
-Some kind of hope to increase pvp in areas other than hi sec?
-Does the access of sites have nothing to do with the change? Is this just a by product of code issues in game and its not worth doing something different (hanger issues in capital ships come to mind). Test bed for feature changes?

This is not a game ender but curiosity has got me.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#929 - 2013-05-15 13:34:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
xP0nYx wrote:


just to one thing clear. this anom changes wont have any effect on 0.0 mining. cuz as soon as a neutral pops up in local you warp to pos anyways. you usually dont wait till u see probes cuz the guy could have a blue warp in or a bookmark. we live in the times of awoxers and so on. in WH on the other hand, im sorry for u guys you are pretty much screwed with this.

The chicken sh*t miners are the ones that warp off every time they see a neutral in system. If you do that it defeats the purpose of mining in null, as you spend more time safed up than actually mining. I always wait to see if they are actually a threat first. As I have said before, only a small percentage of PVP roamers have a probe launcher, those that do not are not much of a threat. Sure I lost a couple mining ships. If I get caught by someone smart enough to out manuver me, then good for them. but I spent 90% of my time actually in the belts mining when I was in null, not POSed up.

xP0nYx wrote:
there are a lot of ways in 0.0 to avoid getting caught by any kind of neutral. for example: if a neut is in sys stay under pos or docked. if u keep this rule in mind its hard to get caught in the first place. make sure you get your mining ship into warp under 12 seconds, so as soon as a neut comes in, you start warping and will be in warp before most ships can be at your position.


Seriously?? These days there is almost always at least 1 neut in system. when I am mining, I actually mine, I will not spend 80% of my time POSed up. If I am going to do that I will just mine in high sec. When probes show on scan you have plenty of time to warp off, it takes at least 30 seconds for them to get a lock on your position. This is the proper way to do it. What you describe is what the paranoid, wannabe miners that barely make 10m/hr do.

This anomaly change will be game breaking for the miners like me who actually mine, rather than sit in a station or POS waiting for perfect safety to undock. Sitting in a POS shield is just a waste of my time.

Besides, if you are correct and the safety net provided by the need to scan down mining ships in grav sites was a non issue, than why is mining in non grav sites near non existent?
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#930 - 2013-05-15 13:37:48 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
every supercap owner was against supercap balancing too

98 of 100 titan owners want to have their aoe dd restored, guess we best do that


Yes because an OP combat mechanic is comparable to nerfing a non combat ships only means of defense in a hostile environment.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#931 - 2013-05-15 13:53:22 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Risk vs Reward, carebears just want the reward. Anyway the more you cry the more EvE Online grows, so keep on crying.



Didn't your momma ever teach you to either say something constructive or not bother?


Care to enlighten us in HOW exactly was null sec mining and WH mining as it is now, a JUST reward based system with no risk? And while at it, explain if you could oh wise one, on how post changes mining will provide INCREASED risk to a literally no warning gank in WH space. (You do know what WH space is like right? )
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#932 - 2013-05-15 13:55:13 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
MT Sackett wrote:
Ok I think I have read every post in dozens and dozens of pages in several threads, I have yet to see a CCP comment or reason on making the grav sites into anoms. There are plenty of ores in belts to mine in all but wormholes, so its not a lack of mining areas. Wanting to make wormhole mining easier ? Worm hole life is supposed to be hard. Wanting to make more parts of game easy to acess? Well if that is the reason, wow. How about putting on a probing module and go look. Exploring is supposed to be a bigger deal ? Now the grav sites will be on your screen and one click away ? That is not exploring.

What is the purpose of the change of grav sites to anoms ?

Thanks



We'd rather have the challenge provided by other players than by us.


The problem I see is that if you shift the equation too much in the favor of the predator you will reduce the supply of prey,

This is exactly why I think the changes to combat anoms are so poorly conceived as it's based on the same faulty logic that has so many people calling for moving L4's to low sec.

Increase the risk too much and people will find alternative activities and the only ones that continue in said activities will be those most prepared. This is why hunters use blinds and try to remain silent, because it's damned hard to bag a deer that has heard humans in the area, they'll be skittish and quick to bolt. Where as if they feel secure and safe they'll just stand around doing their things.

Having grav sites so that they had to be probed down provided a heightened sense of security to those who mined in them. This heightened sense of security would tend to make them slower to react to danger which in turn provided opportunities that skilled predators could take advantage of.

If you really want to increase the amount of conflict, then you need to create greater incentives for people to have their ships in space. Preferably low or null space. You also have to give the prey a fighting chance otherwise you end up with a situation where they are hunted to extinction which in this case means players cease engaging in the dangerous activity.

Consider Forsaken hubs, you think the problem is that they are too easy which prevents other anoms from being used, so rather than adjust the other anoms to be more similar to the popular forsaken hubs you change the forsaken hubs to suck just as much as the others. You do this without understanding why Forsakens are so popular a choice in the first place, you seem to think it's the lack of scrams that are their primary draw, while the thing that actually makes the other anoms unpopular is not the scram part but the fact that you can not effectively engage frigates with the ships required to tank them or the weapon systems most suitable for dealing with larger ships.

The lack of scramblers is a nice bonus but it's not the reason why people avoid the other anoms. Don't believe me, leave the frigates out and put warp disruptors on the dire cruisers and see if that changes which anoms are used the most.

The problem is that for the most part mission rats orbit at long range, requiring the use of long range weaponry/ammo that is poorly suited for use against close orbiting high speed targets (frigates) the AI changes further complicated matters because it effectively removed the traditional counter for frigates in PVE content, since drones are on the KOS list of the rats they are extremely difficult to use to deal with rats that can get in under those long range weapon systems that are required to engage the cruisers and above.

The hub change will not cause people to team up to make poorer rewards than they could get running L4's in high sec (which is actually pretty pathetic isk/hr if you don't play the LP market) They will move to other activities (high sec L4 alts for example) which will make null even more of a ghost town than it normally is.


What you should be doing is figuring out ways to increase the numbers of ships flying in space. Remove the frigates from more anoms, increase the bounties on the frigates in the lower level anoms so that there is some incentive to run them. Hell why not be able to make decent isk/hour on all those little frig heavy anoms, give people the option to speed boat them in smaller ships built specifically to fight frigates. Would it really be all that horrible if a newer player in rifter could make 10 mil or so a tick running the basic anoms?

As it stands now a fully upgraded system in null can support 2-3 ratters. 2-3 while there are what 20+ anoms in those systems that are being ignored because they just aren't worth messing with. If those other anoms were changed to make them more attractive then you'd have more pilots in null earning their isk, creating more targets for the roaming gangs to hunt. Driving more conflict and generating more content.


Not to mention the fact that making the content more difficult introduces a selection bias towards harder to kill prey, So not only will the change to Forsaken hubs decrease the number of potential targets it will result in those remaining targets being better prepared and harder to catch/kill.

I agree 100%

The solution to bringing more life to null sec, is giving more reason to be there. Null sec is dangerous space. Many players like that about null, but that is not why they are there. Most are there for the isk, because that is why there corp/alliance lives there.

PVP is generated by high player populations in PVP areas. Most of Null Sec is a ghost town, so the PVP is limited.
xP0nYx
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#933 - 2013-05-15 14:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: xP0nYx
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
xP0nYx wrote:


just to one thing clear. this anom changes wont have any effect on 0.0 mining. cuz as soon as a neutral pops up in local you warp to pos anyways. you usually dont wait till u see probes cuz the guy could have a blue warp in or a bookmark. we live in the times of awoxers and so on. in WH on the other hand, im sorry for u guys you are pretty much screwed with this.

The chicken sh*t miners are the ones that warp off every time they see a neutral in system. If you do that it defeats the purpose of mining in null, as you spend more time safed up than actually mining. I always wait to see if they are actually a threat first. As I have said before, only a small percentage of PVP roamers have a probe launcher, those that do not are not much of a threat. Sure I lost a couple mining ships. If I get caught by someone smart enough to out manuver me, then good for them. but I spent 90% of my time actually in the belts mining when I was in null, not POSed up.

xP0nYx wrote:
there are a lot of ways in 0.0 to avoid getting caught by any kind of neutral. for example: if a neut is in sys stay under pos or docked. if u keep this rule in mind its hard to get caught in the first place. make sure you get your mining ship into warp under 12 seconds, so as soon as a neut comes in, you start warping and will be in warp before most ships can be at your position.


Seriously?? These days there is almost always at least 1 neut in system. when I am mining, I actually mine, I will not spend 80% of my time POSed up. If I am going to do that I will just mine in high sec. When probes show on scan you have plenty of time to warp off, it takes at least 30 seconds for them to get a lock on your position. This is the proper way to do it. What you describe is what the paranoid, wannabe miners that barely make 10m/hr do.

This anomaly change will be game breaking for the miners like me who actually mine, rather than sit in a station or POS waiting for perfect safety to undock. Sitting in a POS shield is just a waste of my time.

Besides, if you are correct and the safety net provided by the need to scan down mining ships in grav sites was a non issue, than why is mining in non grav sites near non existent?


i have never lost a mining ship in 0.0 to a roamer. maybe because i was stupid afk or so. but not while actually mining. and if in your system is allways a neutral then that might be because u fight them and give them entertainment. i mine like 2-3 Billion ISK a day in my sys and i dont have any problems. of course i dont mine in a system with station.... how stupid is that.... and if there really is a camper. just move to another system. there is space enought out there.

and for your question why ppl dont mine in regular asteroids..... have you actually ever been in 0.0? the roids are like 80 km off each other. and in a large hidden belt there is a spot where u stand and never ever have to move till the belt is empty. of course if your rorqual booster and so on dont have the propper skills it sucks but if your good skilled its all fine.
Adunh Slavy
#934 - 2013-05-15 15:54:17 UTC
If mining becomes too dangerous, then supplies of mins will go down, prices will go up, rewards will go up, protecting miners will be worth it.

There is a lot of ISK in Eve, time to let the market do its job.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#935 - 2013-05-15 17:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Skex Relbore
Adunh Slavy wrote:
If mining becomes too dangerous, then supplies of mins will go down, prices will go up, rewards will go up, protecting miners will be worth it.

There is a lot of ISK in Eve, time to let the market do its job.


The thing is that if you want PVP then you want to encourage stupid people to do stuff, It's damned hard to kill someone who knows what they are doing and paying attention. Stupid/afk people ARE Content for solo/small gang PVPers.

Personally I lose ships all the time, either through afkish ratting and paying too little attention to intel/local or from just doing stupid stuff because I give no ****s and figure why not throw this Daredevil at the obvious covops hot dropper. I do this because currently I can make sufficient isk to more than cover my losses. If the circumstances change to the point where my money generating activity ceases to be able to cover my behavior then I'll change that behavior and there will be that fewer targets for the roaming gangs who previously profited from my behavior.

I get that part of the draw of EVE is the idea that loss has a consequence but that has to be carefully balanced by making recovery from loss easy enough to not encourage risk aversion. The more painful loss the more careful people become, the more careful they become the less action takes place.

This doesn't mean that there should not be risk or that loss should not sting, but it does mean that you can't make that sting too painful or the risk too great vs the potential reward or else people will change their behavior in a way that results a loss of positive results of their activity.

Currently Forsaken hubs sit at that sweet spot when it comes to risk vs reward, The risk exists but can be mitigated by smart behavior or through income generation. That's why people mainly run them, the other anoms fail in that calculation which is why they are not used. Thinking about it tediousness of an activity is also a rather important factor in this equation and is a large part of why people do forsaken hubs over other potentially more lucrative anomalies. The planned changes are going to change that calculation making them just as tedious and unappealing as all the other anoms and the most likely result will not be people doing more of the other types of anomalies but fewer people in general doing any anomalies.

The same goes for mining. If you want miners to kill then you have to tweak the risk vs reward calculus to the that spot where people are willing to take risks. The problem with changing grav sites from signatures to anoms is that they remove some of the ability for smarter players to mitigate their risks, and no you won't see any significant changes to mining output or profit per hour because for the most part Null is a ghost town and the bots and semi/mostly afk miners will continue to do their thing in remote systems and just dock up on those rare occasions where hostiles are roaming about.

Worm holers get doubly screwed because they tend to lack the intel assets that null sec or even low sec folks have, Not only will they lack intel channels to track hostiles on approach, they don't even have local to know if someone is in their system. They are left with pretty much 0 way to mitigate their risk changing their activity from one where they can exercise some measure of skill to protect themselves to a question of pure luck. This change will result in fewer players taking that chance and thus reduce the number of potential targets available to shoot.

If you want good vibrant PVP content then you need an active vibrant population of prey. Changes that make being prey overly risky, unrewarding or tedious discourage that active vibrant population. Resulting in a corresponding reduction in PVP content.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#936 - 2013-05-15 18:00:27 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:

Worm holers get doubly screwed because they tend to lack the intel assets that null sec or even low sec folks have, Not only will they lack intel channels to track hostiles on approach, they don't even have local to know if someone is in their system. They are left with pretty much 0 way to mitigate their risk changing their activity from one where they can exercise some measure of skill to protect themselves to a question of pure luck. This change will result in fewer players taking that chance and thus reduce the number of potential targets available to shoot.


Yeah, that's why the wormhole folks never do PVE in multibillion T3 and blinged capital fleets, there's absolutely no way to know if hostiles are coming!

.
Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#937 - 2013-05-15 18:18:14 UTC
Roime wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:

Worm holers get doubly screwed because they tend to lack the intel assets that null sec or even low sec folks have, Not only will they lack intel channels to track hostiles on approach, they don't even have local to know if someone is in their system. They are left with pretty much 0 way to mitigate their risk changing their activity from one where they can exercise some measure of skill to protect themselves to a question of pure luck. This change will result in fewer players taking that chance and thus reduce the number of potential targets available to shoot.


Yeah, that's why the wormhole folks never do PVE in multibillion T3 and blinged capital fleets, there's absolutely no way to know if hostiles are coming!



I'm not a worm hole dweller myself but I'd imagine that the ability to use DScan to see probes provides a fair degree of warning further anything that would represent a significant threat to a fleet of blinged out T3 and capitals would show up on DSCAN themselves unlike the single cloaky ship that would be required to kill a solo miner.

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#938 - 2013-05-15 20:24:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
xP0nYx wrote:


i have never lost a mining ship in 0.0 to a roamer. maybe because i was stupid afk or so. but not while actually mining. and if in your system is allways a neutral then that might be because u fight them and give them entertainment. i mine like 2-3 Billion ISK a day in my sys and i dont have any problems. of course i dont mine in a system with station.... how stupid is that.... and if there really is a camper. just move to another system. there is space enought out there.

and for your question why ppl dont mine in regular asteroids..... have you actually ever been in 0.0? the roids are like 80 km off each other. and in a large hidden belt there is a spot where u stand and never ever have to move till the belt is empty. of course if your rorqual booster and so on dont have the propper skills it sucks but if your good skilled its all fine.


Well I have only lost 2 mining ships in 3 years, So not what I would consider a problem. My point was POSing up every time a neutral pops up in the system is not the right way to mine. Sure it is safer, but not everyone has access to systems so deep inside blue territory you never see a neutral. In the system like where I used to mine you see a few non blue pass thru every hour. You can POS up and wait until they leave, like a null bear baby, or you can watch D-scan for probes while you keep mining. I prefer the latter, and I would say my way works well as I spend far less time sitting in a POS than I would doing it your way, And the risk is not bad considering I only lost 2 Ships in three years.

So tell me again why being a pansy is better? Perhaps your name should be xMyLittlePonYx, xHellokittYx, or even xPokemoNx.

I have read far to many threads with nullbears complaining about AFK cloakers and being camped by neuts. Yet players like you still promote such unnecessary behavior. With my method there is no issue, other than a mild additional risk, and need to pay more attention to what is happening around you.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#939 - 2013-05-15 20:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Roime wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:

Worm holers get doubly screwed because they tend to lack the intel assets that null sec or even low sec folks have, Not only will they lack intel channels to track hostiles on approach, they don't even have local to know if someone is in their system. They are left with pretty much 0 way to mitigate their risk changing their activity from one where they can exercise some measure of skill to protect themselves to a question of pure luck. This change will result in fewer players taking that chance and thus reduce the number of potential targets available to shoot.


Yeah, that's why the wormhole folks never do PVE in multibillion T3 and blinged capital fleets, there's absolutely no way to know if hostiles are coming!


Exactly the point. If the w-space combat sites were moved to anomalies you would not see blinged out mutibillion isk T3's running them. Currently they have that security of needing to be scanned down. The warning is the fact that those activities ARE done in sites that have to be scanned down. You know when someone is coming, because you see them, or their probes on D-scan. Not to mention you are in a combat ship and can some what defend yourself when they do come.

On the flip side, when mining in W-space D-scan is the only intel/protection tool you have, other than mutiboxing scouts on the incoming holes. Moving grav sites to anomalies removes that single layer of warning/intel a W-space miner has. If this happens W-space mining will stop.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#940 - 2013-05-15 20:38:18 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
MT Sackett wrote:
Ok I think I have read every post in dozens and dozens of pages in several threads, I have yet to see a CCP comment or reason on making the grav sites into anoms. There are plenty of ores in belts to mine in all but wormholes, so its not a lack of mining areas. Wanting to make wormhole mining easier ? Worm hole life is supposed to be hard. Wanting to make more parts of game easy to acess? Well if that is the reason, wow. How about putting on a probing module and go look. Exploring is supposed to be a bigger deal ? Now the grav sites will be on your screen and one click away ? That is not exploring.

What is the purpose of the change of grav sites to anoms ?

Thanks



We'd rather have the challenge provided by other players than by us.

From the CSM winter 2012 minute, concerning wars:

"Solomon: The strong prey on the weak, but the weak aren’t responding, and nobody’s getting particularly fun or nourishing gameplay out of this. Is that a failure?"

The way miners respond to challenge is to mine elsewhere.

Be prepared for the exact same thing Solomon said to happen with mining in dangerous space. Look at the stats of what players end up doing, and see if its a failure. (In this case, ore mined in various types of space.)

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction