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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#841 - 2013-05-13 15:24:23 UTC
CCP GenericDev wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the great feedback.

We’re writing a dev blog that basically outlines how we don't give much of a damn about three or four multiple page threads throughout the forums, detailing player issues with our new scanning system. The fact is that we completely dropped the ball by not soliciting input from CSM and advanced probers about the sort of emergent gameplay that you're all describing, and have inadvertently squashed it with our new system. But because we spent so much time on it, we can't really justify going back and redoing any of it now, so you'll simply have to deal.


FIFY. Sorry if you don't like it, but everyone's concerns really can be dismissed in a single paragraph. No need to go on and on about it for three.
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#842 - 2013-05-13 15:29:53 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
The issue is that these two systems are being worked on by two different teams, and it is very hard to link them heavily while they are still under development. So we probably will only see a limited connection when Odyseey lands, but hopefully can then address these issues in a point release.

Two teams, so is there someone who is looking at all that code from a 3rd perspective and going, OMG, that will be an issue when we upgrade this or that function or try to add additional functions or upgrade whats there?

..........or is it a wing and a prayer effort with no documentation like olden CCP days?

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#843 - 2013-05-13 15:36:42 UTC
So, my feedback:

1) that alt-shift for scaling the formation sucks big time. Make scaling just a single modifier key, not double. 999999% of the times we're either moving or scaling the probes, not moving the individually.
2) When i've locked something (scanned it to 100%) the sig disappears. This is not really good, these cosmic sigs are not moving, make it work like on TQ. once 100% stays at 100%.
3) i'm missing deadspace probes to keep targets identified. DSP range was awesome and made things easier. Either put back DSPs or bump regular combat's range to 256AU please.
4) Upon entering a solar system, is it intentional that the scanner runs? The effecit is there, however i'm not seeing results popping up always, and the table on the scanner is never populated - for that i have to press scan manually.

And i prefered the former method for finding grav sites, this one seems too easy.

In a nutshell that's i could find at a qucik glance looking at sisi.
Victors Clone
madmen of the skies
#844 - 2013-05-13 15:47:53 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Victors Clone wrote:
Could someone explain to me please all the angriness developed by the fact that the DSP's are beeing removed ? With the new System-Scanner-Thingy, it makes the PvE side of the DSP's obsolete and for their PvP function the Combat-Probes take their place. One solution in solving this redundancy issue could be a Buff for the Combat-Probes in radius (e.g. from MAX_RANGE = 64 to MAX_RANGE = 128). Big smile



When the System-Scanner-Thingy can populate my scan results window with a list of sigs it found so I don't have to spin, mouseover, manually write down info, wash repeat, THEN it will replace my DSP's functionality for PVE.

Until then it is merely eye candy and barely useful as a substitute.


No big deal, CCP will simply put your in space shown signatures in the Scanner-Probe-Window with all the required informations (Problem solved for the hardcore Caldari-Space-Tengu-Pro's and Co. :) ). BAM the on board PvE-DSP is born.
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#845 - 2013-05-13 15:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Messoroz
Bug with the overlay:
You cannot align or move in the direction of a displayed signature. You can click anywhere on the overlayed icons, even the edge and your ship refuses to move. This is kind of annoying because theres no align option and you can't manually do it either. The overlay is stealing focus from the mouse clicks. The icons are rather big as well which means this a bigger pita.
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#846 - 2013-05-13 15:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Messoroz
Let us sort the scanner results!
Some of us want to be able to sort the 100+ sigs in wormholes fast. My alliance in particular hates carebearing and we scan wormholes all day long. We know what we want, and we don't want your carebear sites.
Lets us copy and paste the scanner list!
Some of us have tools that parse the list
Let us have smaller rows in the signature panel!
Not all of us have the screen real estate to have the signature panel be 3000px tall to fit the 50+ sigs. The smaller rows in the old system were just tolerable.
Sheena Tzash
Doomheim
#847 - 2013-05-13 15:56:57 UTC
Rammix wrote:
Sheena Tzash wrote:
If the system scanner IS running can we PLEASE have a constant D-Scan. It doesn't make any sence that my ships sensors are looking for sites on the edge of space and yet if I want to see if someone is creeping up behind me I have to manually click a button every 10 seconds or so.

[sarcasm]
Maybe they should also warn you that someone in a pvp-fitted ship is coming towards you, when he is 3 jumps away?
Or maybe you want to know when someone activates narrowed directional scan on you? No?
[/sarcasm]



Wow that would be great! [/sarcasm]

My point being is that the system wide scanner can tell scan constantly and tell me if an anomly from the other side of the galaxy has gone yet I need to manually press a button for anything on the grid. Seems a little bit backwards since the larger anomolies are less likely to change where as the local Situation would and the local situation is far more important.

Will it be different from someone clicking the 'scan' button every 5 / 10 seconds? No? So whats the problem?
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#848 - 2013-05-13 15:57:11 UTC
Can you please give us an update when the new stuff has been applied to Sisi as well as a mirror from TQ so we can test this with current skills?

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#849 - 2013-05-13 16:09:08 UTC
Magic Crisp wrote:
So, my feedback:

1) that alt-shift for scaling the formation sucks big time. Make scaling just a single modifier key, not double. 999999% of the times we're either moving or scaling the probes, not moving the individually.



Just drag on the sphere. It resizes and moves probes to the center. Easy.

This functionality would be great for 2 probe groups of 4 as well. That way you could place 2 sets in different locations and be able to shrink both at the same time if you choose.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#850 - 2013-05-13 16:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Space Wanderer wrote:


This is where I believe you are dropping the ball, hard.

What you are doing here is to give a working UI to people who use the method YOU like, and a clunky interface to people who do not. From my standpoint it really looks like a child that bring away the ball if the other children don't want to play with the rules he wants.


Well, if that was the case, we would only create a single method and prohibit all others, which we are not doing.

Space Wanderer wrote:

I hope you realize what you just said: we give you formations if you scan like we tell you. If you don't, even if your method is potentially better than ours, you will have to waste additional time fighting the interface, so our method is better.


All I'm saying is that we only have so much bandwidth and we chose to focus our attention on one method, while still aiming to keep as many of the others possible as we can. The key difference here is that while we can strife to keep the options possible, we can't promise to keep them viable. For the most part they should be - the fact you can launch many probes at once for instance should speed up any method you use. Moving your probes into a formation of your own making should also in most cases be no harder or more time consuming than with the current system. You should not be fighting the interface any more than you do currently, etc.

Space Wanderer wrote:

Seriously, I DO hope I am not understanding things correctly, because, if I do, this is the most unsandboxy thing that I read since the Incarna debacle, and the most themeparkish addition that I have seen in a LONG time in this game. I really really do hope you'll think long and hard before injecting a theme park approach to scanning. And the way to avoid it is straightforward, just add one or two customizable layouts...


We're not telling people they HAVE to scan in only one way. There is still plenty of wiggle room to improvise and do things your way. On the other hand, the lack of focus of the system is one of the major pain points people have in learning the system and providing them with easier way to learn it is very beneficial IMO. Also, we do plan to allow people to save their own formations at some point, we just don't have time to implement it for Odyssey, but its been in the design from the start. We aim to add it in a point release if time permits.



i will not go into detail but instead just try to confront you with an analogy. if fozzie went about ship balancing in the same way you go about probing, he would make it so that each ship you assemble automatically comes with the PVP fit he likes most and if you want to use another fit, you have to manually unfit it and THEN fit what you want.
while this change would certainly benefit new players™, it would introduce bias and greatly reduce the depth of the game i.e. boil frogs, kill the sandbox yadda yadda.

edit: as a side note, it has probably been stated already, but why did you introduce these changes so late? believe it or not, players oftentimes do not need a working version of a feature to offer feedback, especially when the feature is very delicate and the overhaul as radical as this one. a lot of the fecal monsoon in this thread could have been averted if you had talked with a dozen or so experienced wormhole dwellers and/or explorers.

I should buy an Ishtar.
J1LT
Interstella Misfits
#851 - 2013-05-13 16:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: J1LT
My one HUGE gripe with the new system is the inability to tell my probes to ignore certain site types! (looking at gas sites here)

I can understand the removal of DSP's but atleast give us the option to search for sigs we are after.

I have 0 interest in finding a gas site EVER, where as other people ONLY want gas sites.

As we no longer have the ability to scan for only certain sig types, why is the option to only scan for Data/Relic/Gas/Combat still in the filters in the scanner?

Obviously some one at CCP thought about it as the sig names have changed from grav/radar/yadayada to the new gas/relic/data..

Making content more accessible is one thing, but shoe horning it on someone is another!
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#852 - 2013-05-13 16:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Rammix wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued.

-- THIS.
You took away a part of gameplay, which often was a source of some player interactions. Please give it back.

BTW, currently on SiSi if you manually call your probes back you have to wait before they return. But if you just leave the system, you get them back instantly. Very odd, if not more.

p.s. The same about probes' lifespan. They need to be mortal. By the same reasons.


THIS ten times over.

even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing probes in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished.

I should buy an Ishtar.
J1LT
Interstella Misfits
#853 - 2013-05-13 16:45:27 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:


THIS ten times over.

even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing drones in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished.



+1
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#854 - 2013-05-13 16:47:27 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued.

-- THIS.
You took away a part of gameplay, which often was a source of some player interactions. Please give it back.

BTW, currently on SiSi if you manually call your probes back you have to wait before they return. But if you just leave the system, you get them back instantly. Very odd, if not more.

p.s. The same about probes' lifespan. They need to be mortal. By the same reasons.


THIS ten times over.

even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing drones in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished.


Or take it to another level. You can leave probes behind, but they are able to be scanned out, hacked, and an anticloak virus inserted so if you do recall them, you can't cloak for a minute etc..

Let's add to the options.
Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#855 - 2013-05-13 16:58:33 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3?
Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules?


We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough).


could you at least try to balance the new modules. the bonuses are insane. if they were going to cost 2b a piece, fine. but as they are they do remove any need to train any skills.

astrometrics is a usefull skill now as it gives a tripple bonus. the other bonusses are cut in half. this means a single module compensates for 4 levels of the secondary scanning skills. you have entirely removed any use what so ever from these skills

bonuses should be more along the line of:

deviation t1: 5%, T2: 10 %
probe strenght T1: 5%, T2: 10%
Speed: noone cares really. i didnt check but I assume its equally broken
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#856 - 2013-05-13 17:28:45 UTC
Victors Clone wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Victors Clone wrote:
Could someone explain to me please all the angriness developed by the fact that the DSP's are beeing removed ? With the new System-Scanner-Thingy, it makes the PvE side of the DSP's obsolete and for their PvP function the Combat-Probes take their place. One solution in solving this redundancy issue could be a Buff for the Combat-Probes in radius (e.g. from MAX_RANGE = 64 to MAX_RANGE = 128). Big smile



When the System-Scanner-Thingy can populate my scan results window with a list of sigs it found so I don't have to spin, mouseover, manually write down info, wash repeat, THEN it will replace my DSP's functionality for PVE.

Until then it is merely eye candy and barely useful as a substitute.


No big deal, CCP will simply put your in space shown signatures in the Scanner-Probe-Window with all the required informations (Problem solved for the hardcore Caldari-Space-Tengu-Pro's and Co. :) ). BAM the on board PvE-DSP is born.


Hey you were the one with the claim that the System-Scanner-Thingy obsoletes Deep space probes. I was simply pointing out how far it fall short in its current state.
Space Wanderer
#857 - 2013-05-13 17:32:23 UTC
Hathrul wrote:
Speed: noone cares really. i didnt check but I assume its equally broken


Err... noone cares? Ask people ninja-exploring in lowsec who have a whooping 2.3 seconds to check for probes in their directional scanner. It's almost like having invisible probes...

Yes, it's equally broken, but at least there is a bug here that disables stacking penalty. I'll check again when the bug is fixed.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#858 - 2013-05-13 17:33:33 UTC
Hathrul wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3?
Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules?


We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough).


could you at least try to balance the new modules. the bonuses are insane. if they were going to cost 2b a piece, fine. but as they are they do remove any need to train any skills.

astrometrics is a usefull skill now as it gives a tripple bonus. the other bonusses are cut in half. this means a single module compensates for 4 levels of the secondary scanning skills. you have entirely removed any use what so ever from these skills

bonuses should be more along the line of:

deviation t1: 5%, T2: 10 %
probe strenght T1: 5%, T2: 10%
Speed: noone cares really. i didnt check but I assume its equally broken

The astrometric skill needs balanced a 5% bonus to 3 effects is huge, if you take it to 4 only because that is what is required for astrometric pinpointing you can compensate the rest of the skill levels with a module or two.
2% per level for Astrometrics is plenty good enough.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
River Atabasca
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#859 - 2013-05-13 17:37:19 UTC
Hathrul wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3?
Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules?


We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough).


could you at least try to balance the new modules. the bonuses are insane. if they were going to cost 2b a piece, fine. but as they are they do remove any need to train any skills.

astrometrics is a usefull skill now as it gives a tripple bonus. the other bonusses are cut in half. this means a single module compensates for 4 levels of the secondary scanning skills. you have entirely removed any use what so ever from these skills

bonuses should be more along the line of:

deviation t1: 5%, T2: 10 %
probe strenght T1: 5%, T2: 10%
Speed: noone cares really. i didnt check but I assume its equally broken


totally agree.
CCP, if you are so sure for introducing these new modules then return me my ~4 mil SP's trained fort scan.

the problem is: 1 new module does 4 time more than about a month of training

I say NO for theses new modules, but yes for everything else.
Space Wanderer
#860 - 2013-05-13 17:37:43 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

i will not go into detail but instead just try to confront you with an analogy. if fozzie went about ship balancing in the same way you go about probing, he would make it so that each ship you assemble automatically comes with the PVP fit he likes most and if you want to use another fit, you have to manually unfit it and THEN fit what you want.


Actually, considering that the time gained in this case IS the module, the analogy would be more along the lines of:

"if fozzie went about ship balancing in the same way you go about probing, he would make it so that each ship you assemble automatically comes with the PVP fit he likes most for free and if you want to use another fit, you don't get any free module and have to pay for each of them."

That's the extent of what seems to be going on now...Sad