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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Octoven
Stellar Production
#781 - 2013-05-12 20:30:29 UTC
Sulvorati Kunoki wrote:
Octoven wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Octoven wrote:

it literally is infinite


Please do NOT combine literally and infinite. The stupidity of that combination makes my eyes hurt.

You may wish to look up both words.


The stupidity for one to say they are not infinite when CCP Fozzie clearly stated they were in a previous post hurts my eyes as well Smile IF a game developer says that an object has an infinite point of view then it does, I chose to use the word literally (meaning exactly) to indicate to the player in question that when a dev says infinite it means boundless and is not being used as a metaphor; however, if you prefer this long winded explanation I would be happy to yield to such a process to ease the pain of your eyes.

Until then I stand by my original statement, "it literally (Exactly) is infinite."



As you say yourself, infinite means boundless. Clearly the scanner is bounded by the solar system you are in. Hence not infinite.


No, when you are in a solar system there is no boundary on the edge of it. The longest recorded bookmark for deep safes was recorded at i think 5.9 billion AU which translates to 95,000 light years approx the diameter of the Milky Way >.> so yes the discovery scanner is indeed infinite and your argument is invalid. I can also say space is infinite as we know it. However, if I were to go from Sol to Rigel it doesnt mean that its bounded. Just as going from Jita to New Caldari is not bounded. Just because the solar systems are not loading on the backdrop for a particular system does NOT mean it is cut off from it and therefore bounded. Indeed it may not load anoms and sigs from other systems but the device itself will not have a distance limitation within the same solar system, and to be fair if one is using common sense then this is self evident.
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#782 - 2013-05-13 01:17:27 UTC
Roel Yento wrote:
The only reason to actually remove dsp's is for pve reasons to make it a more level playing field for new accounts. They are pushing exploration and if new players get into exploration that means more people out roaming and having fun, thus more accounts. That is the reason why i am fine with their pve use being removed. Still no valid reason to remove their pvp use though, hence why they haven't responded to comments about the dsp's combat use.


Umm..... New accounts, more level playing field, come on get a grip, people play EvE because its EvE, its a sandbox, its hard to break into, that is one of its unique selling points (which CCP tends to forget in its quest for ISK) .

However if we follow that line of reasoning," the level playing field", ywe are left with a platform game like PacMan when all the shiny is stripped away, a sandbox needs graduation and what yCCP have become confused over is the learning curve, which at one time in the early days was a cliff, Trinity flattened it out and now rookies are literally hand held compared to the early days (and there are many 10 year old vets out there who will tell you this). An extension to this line of reasoning comes to the oblivious why not allow new accounts access to lvl 4 missions and L weapons and BS´s?. All this getting out roaming and having fun is also bollocks to the highest degree, noobs are mostly high sec dwellers, they live in set areas that are already overpopulated with explorers, not finding stuff on entering a system , then the same the next 10 will actually drive people away and make them think they were sold a bill of goods and nothing substantial, also known as smoke and mirrors.

No CCP did away with them because they did not think about all the unintended uses and what ones the did they thought combats would be good enough, for the PvP aspect, the overlay scanner placing great spamming hits splattered across the screen to them was so much eye candy they had to have it regardless of it breaking exploration in the truer sense, if it need a probe to find it, use a probe, but that is too much work for some. Yeah i agree DSP´s are useful, they do give more than the overlay in PvE due to a hard list of base strengths because CCP has hard coded sig base strengths and they cant figure out the 5 lines of code to make it dynamic with in a set range, thats why they are going and sod all of us who have elite navigation certificates who do see it as a profession with more merit than mission running lvl 4´s on pimped out "i win button boats" .


already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#783 - 2013-05-13 01:19:46 UTC
will you guys stop the bull over infinite, all Fozzie means that its everything within the hard set boundary of a system in which anything can spawn, he´s just too stupid to be clear about it.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Soulpirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#784 - 2013-05-13 02:49:52 UTC
T2 exploration mods need to have Astrometrics V as a requirement.

/drops the mic
Matuk Grymwal
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#785 - 2013-05-13 03:06:32 UTC
Well I came to this thread prepared to be angry and found CCP are already addressing most issues already. I may even have to try the new scanning changes and provide constructive feedback Blink As others have discussed the DSP removal could certainly be a massive pain in the backside for finding deep safes. There are plenty of wormhole corps with very deep safes in their home system that they use to set traps. There is one C6 corp we regularly came across who would sit their fleets at a deep around 50-60AU away from any orbital bodies.
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#786 - 2013-05-13 03:46:56 UTC
If CCP is insistent on dropping DSP, why not add 2 more steps to combat probes and let them scan out to 256au?
Combined with being able to drop 1 probe = the same thing as a DSP.
Galatea Galilei
Nihilistic Mystics
#787 - 2013-05-13 03:56:23 UTC
Matuk Grymwal wrote:
Well I came to this thread prepared to be angry and found CCP are already addressing most issues already. I may even have to try the new scanning changes and provide constructive feedback Blink As others have discussed the DSP removal could certainly be a massive pain in the backside for finding deep safes. There are plenty of wormhole corps with very deep safes in their home system that they use to set traps. There is one C6 corp we regularly came across who would sit their fleets at a deep around 50-60AU away from any orbital bodies.

Yes, this will make finding things like that more difficult. Thus, people will accuse CCP of "dumbing down" the game (because they removed this option). Of course, if they made it easier, CCP would be accused of "dumbing down" the game for that. I love the forums. Any change at all is "dumbing down", no matter the direction it moves the difficulty of things... xD The power of rationalization... the same conclusion can be argued no matter the facts, you just need to alter the argument a bit to fit.
Haseo Antares
Production N Destruction INC.
F O R M I C I D A E
#788 - 2013-05-13 04:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Haseo Antares
How about disabling/outlawing the new overlay in HS empire and enable/allow it everywhere else? Maybe even create a new sov upgrade module disrupting the new overlay system. If people want easier exploration lets make em leave HS to gain access to tools that make exploration easier.

I prefer the scanning system on TQ to the one on SISI, but if I gotta live with the new one I might as well try to give some feedback rather than whine lol.

We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode what you just said.
Roel Yento
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#789 - 2013-05-13 04:44:58 UTC
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Roel Yento wrote:
The only reason to actually remove dsp's is for pve reasons to make it a more level playing field for new accounts. They are pushing exploration and if new players get into exploration that means more people out roaming and having fun, thus more accounts. That is the reason why i am fine with their pve use being removed. Still no valid reason to remove their pvp use though, hence why they haven't responded to comments about the dsp's combat use.


Umm..... New accounts, more level playing field, come on get a grip, people play EvE because its EvE, its a sandbox, its hard to break into, that is one of its unique selling points (which CCP tends to forget in its quest for ISK) .

However if we follow that line of reasoning," the level playing field", ywe are left with a platform game like PacMan when all the shiny is stripped away, a sandbox needs graduation and what yCCP have become confused over is the learning curve, which at one time in the early days was a cliff, Trinity flattened it out and now rookies are literally hand held compared to the early days (and there are many 10 year old vets out there who will tell you this). An extension to this line of reasoning comes to the oblivious why not allow new accoexunts access to lvl 4 missions and L weapons and BS´s?. All this getting out roaming and having fun is also bollocks to the highest degree, noobs are mostly high sec dwellers, they live in set areas that are already overpopulated with explorers, not finding stuff on entering a system , then the same the next 10 will actually drive people away and make them think they were sold a bill of goods and nothing substantial, also known as smoke and mirrors.

No CCP did away with them because they did not think about all the unintended uses and what ones the did they thought combats would be good enough, for the PvP aspect, the overlay scanner placing great spamming hits splattered across the screen to them was so much eye candy they had to have it regardless of it breaking exploration in the truer sense, if it need a probe to find it, use a probe, but that is too much work for some. Yeah i agree DSP´s are useful, they do give more than the overlay in PvE due to a hard list of base strengths because CCP has hard coded sig base strengths and they cant figure out the 5 lines of code to make it dynamic with in a set range, thats why they are going and sod all of us who have elite navigation certificates who do see it as a profession with more merit than mission running lvl 4´s on pimped out "i win button boats" .




Not sure if i communicated my point correctly but i did not mean for it to sound like i think the playing field should be leveled out. I was only saying that i could understand doing that for a business plan to help newer players feel equal to older players. Personally i think it cheapens things for older players that had to do the long train times. Besides, who complains about deep space probes? For the most part people that don't want to wait for the train time. It is unfortunate if they are being removed due to a coding issue and nothing is being done to fix them.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#790 - 2013-05-13 04:59:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Octoven
Then again...who complained about loan or personal contracts, yet they were still taken out. I doubt anything anyone says here will keep it from happening.

I should also note that players complained about the removal of the jukebox due to a coding issue but CCP has already stated flat out, the jukebox isn't coming back again.
Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
#791 - 2013-05-13 07:19:55 UTC
Hello.

CCP, you do know there is player-made table of relevance between base site's signal strength and the type of this site?

Will this 'cheat' be shuffled somehow? As it stands, you may in one glance detect what signatures you're willing to probe down (with use of external resourse). It's somehow... immersion breaking.

Slightly more randomness in probing please? Let it be so 10/10 may be more or less difficult, so table will contain overlapping ranges instead of exact number.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#792 - 2013-05-13 07:54:33 UTC
Paul Clancy wrote:
Hello.

CCP, you do know there is player-made table of relevance between base site's signal strength and the type of this site?

Will this 'cheat' be shuffled somehow? As it stands, you may in one glance detect what signatures you're willing to probe down (with use of external resourse). It's somehow... immersion breaking.

Slightly more randomness in probing please? Let it be so 10/10 may be more or less difficult, so table will contain overlapping ranges instead of exact number.


If you are speaking of http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/highsec.html, you CAN still use core probes to use that site; however, they arent as effective as DSPs haha
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#793 - 2013-05-13 08:09:19 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Paul Clancy wrote:
Hello.

CCP, you do know there is player-made table of relevance between base site's signal strength and the type of this site?

Will this 'cheat' be shuffled somehow? As it stands, you may in one glance detect what signatures you're willing to probe down (with use of external resourse). It's somehow... immersion breaking.

Slightly more randomness in probing please? Let it be so 10/10 may be more or less difficult, so table will contain overlapping ranges instead of exact number.


If you are speaking of http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/highsec.html, you CAN still use core probes to use that site; however, they arent as effective as DSPs haha

The discovery scanner will do that much faster than a DSP, so that web site it just becoming more effective.
The DSP have more Israel's that that web site, it is a pitty you can't see that.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#794 - 2013-05-13 08:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Hathrul
hi

can all the bonusses on the new scan mods be cut in half please? 40% deviation? 20% scan strenght? thats insane. i can nearly double my scan strenght with 4 midslots

edit: ps, spread formation is useless.
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#795 - 2013-05-13 09:04:19 UTC
So, the removal of deadspace probes means bumping up the regular combat probes' max range to 256AU? Deepspace probes are damn useful to cover an oversized solar system, and also do some scanning on someone out of his dscan range, just to keep track of his movement in the system.

when see on sisi when i get a chance.
Zeradn
Last Cartographers of Abyss
#796 - 2013-05-13 09:28:05 UTC
From a PvE point of view, DSPs are obsolete as the mouse over on the new Scanner Overlay brackets shows exactly which group the signature belongs to by directly giving the signature base strength. As pointed above, the swiftandbitter.com site just became useful for even a novice explorer. But, for a WH prober, DSPs were invaluable and they just got screwed. Now they will have to make do with the 60au combat probes which cannot efficiently replace DSPs.

If this is implemented, those guys will have to find new means to find reliable results. Even with 7 probes, we can't efficiently and completely cover even 100au radius. Considering the number of systems with radii bigger than that, PvP probing, and mainly WH probing just got more difficult. It could be argued that those things just got more challenging and even experienced players just have to rethink strategies, thus making things more 'interesting'. This change is more in the favour or the 'prey' than the 'hunter' in normal space and vice-versa in WH space.
Matuk Grymwal
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#797 - 2013-05-13 09:46:59 UTC
Okay I've test the changes and as promised here is productive feedback:


  • Setting up custom probe formations is PAINFUL and makes my heart burn with the rage of a thousand dying suns. Evil
  • You can no longer sort probes by probe range. I use this to find all probes of a certain range so I can adjust their range as one block.
  • When I click and drag on bubbles in space to adjust the range of the probes, you can't tell what range you're dragging to anymore.
  • When you drop probes the probe formation always defaults to the centre of the system. I'd much prefer it to default the centre to where your ship is in space as it does now. This is a convenience thing, it makes it easier to ensure you don't accidentally drop combat probes in D-scan range of a target you are trying to find.


With the new pre-canned formations when you launch probes it will now default your probes into the last precanned formation you used. For those of us (i.e. every scanner who has half a clue in wormhole space) who setup custom formations, it is now extremely painful to drag probes from these precanned formations into our desired setup.

The spread formation puts the probes really far apart and all in a circle. So getting them back into precise geometries is really hard.

The pinpoint formation is slightly easier, but is a 3D formation when a lot of pilots use a 2D formation, and it's still fairly annoying compared to having the probes all on top of each other.

Some suggestions to fix the formation issue:

  • When launching probes ALWAYS default them to being right on top of each other. This is the current behaviour and makes it easiest for those of us who setup custom formations.
  • And/or ("and" preferred), add a custom formation button. When you click on this button make it remember the formation you set it to and restore it when you click on it.


For the love of god at least default the probes to being on top of each other as they do now. If you want one of the new formations it is super easy to click on the button to set one of the new formations, so it is no loss of convenience for people who want to use the new precanned formations. Customisable formations would be awesome, but at least don't break the scanning system for those of us who have their own preferred formations.
TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#798 - 2013-05-13 10:35:14 UTC
Still no word about the actual scanning time with combat probes??

C'mon CCP, seriously?

You are about to release a completely redesigned line of battleships, and you haven't fixed the main reason for one of the races bonuses being of no use.

Wake up!
Rammix
TheMurk
#799 - 2013-05-13 10:55:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Octoven wrote:
It bothers me that people can use these to quickly dismiss signatures without even needing to bother attempting to scan down to ID the grouping of the site. If they did that then, it starts to feel more like exploring. It's pointless really to pop out a probe and know whats in the system...what is there to explore? That takes all the unknown out of it.

Lol?? The new system not only allows such tricks but makes them even much easier. Maybe I'll reveal a secret to you: all sig strengths on the scanning overlay are stable and refer to anomalies the DSPs did. E.g. in terms of WH a sig with 10% strength is a K162 or something like that, 3% means radar sites etc, and so on.
Nothing changed in this. Now you can just look at the sky and say "Oh, seems we have a new signature, looks like an incoming WH connection, let's scan it".

Brainless Bimbo wrote:
CCP has hard coded sig base strengths and they cant figure out the 5 lines of code to make it dynamic with in a set range, thats why they are going and sod all of us who have elite navigation certificates who do see it as a profession with more merit than mission running lvl 4´s on pimped out "i win button boats" .

Making sig strengths dynamic would be stupid. Because every - at least relatively stable - thing has some constant carachteristics. Objects in space IRL have a complex signature made by their temperature, radiation etc, which helps to identify them.
So it's just right and realistic that cosmic signatures in a game about spaceships also have stable identifiable signatures. When you scan a sig to 100% it's nothing else than identification of its type -- the same type can be identified without scanning to 100%, just with more deviation, that's all. It's just realistic. And when your DSP helps you to identify a signature because DSP's scanning radius is so big it makes all deviations meaningless - it's also realistic. IRL we also don't need super strong tools to identify (NOT locate - it's different) frickingly distant objects by their signatures.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Octoven
Stellar Production
#800 - 2013-05-13 11:06:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Octoven
TZeer wrote:


Still no word about the actual scanning time with combat probes??

C'mon CCP, seriously?

You are about to release a completely redesigned line of battleships, and you haven't fixed the main reason for one of the races bonuses being of no use.

Wake up!



I am completely confused about this statement, are you talking about the new line of battleships or the scanning system??