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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#761 - 2013-05-12 13:37:02 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

So giving scanning a "local chat" of its own is not dumbing it down? Why should you get all the information for free as soon as you enter a system?
DSPs are not easy mode, takes a siginificant time investment, special ships and equipment to use them.


You don't get "all the information" for free. You get a overview of anomalies and signatures, nothing about ships or structures. Time investment is a non-argument (waiting is not a skill) and I don't consider a Heron with a expanded probelauncher and a prototype cloak special ships and equipment.

Astrometrics V is a time investment, the heron low and behold is a specialized ship for scanning, and the expanded probe launcher is specialized equipment required for the DSP.
Not being able to see ships and structures is the reason why we want the DSP left in game. The discovery scanner is easy mode for cosmic signatures and anolamies, essencialy the "local chat" of scanning.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#762 - 2013-05-12 14:05:36 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Astrometrics V is a time investment, the heron low and behold is a specialized ship for scanning, and the expanded probe launcher is specialized equipment required for the DSP.
Not being able to see ships and structures is the reason why we want the DSP left in game. The discovery scanner is easy mode for cosmic signatures and anolamies, essencialy the "local chat" of scanning.


Ok, understood. You want to keep the game dumbed down, not more complicated (by having to use combat probes). Glad to hear ;-)
Fae Toledo
The Scope
#763 - 2013-05-12 16:41:23 UTC
Aimee Maken wrote:
The removal of DSP without some form of skill comp is just unfair.

At least refund the entire old skill and let us decide to put how much into it again.


Agree with Aimee Maken. We speaking about significant time investment become pointless.
Sulvorati Kunoki
Sunstrike Enterprises
#764 - 2013-05-12 17:13:00 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Octoven wrote:

it literally is infinite


Please do NOT combine literally and infinite. The stupidity of that combination makes my eyes hurt.

You may wish to look up both words.


The stupidity for one to say they are not infinite when CCP Fozzie clearly stated they were in a previous post hurts my eyes as well Smile IF a game developer says that an object has an infinite point of view then it does, I chose to use the word literally (meaning exactly) to indicate to the player in question that when a dev says infinite it means boundless and is not being used as a metaphor; however, if you prefer this long winded explanation I would be happy to yield to such a process to ease the pain of your eyes.

Until then I stand by my original statement, "it literally (Exactly) is infinite."



As you say yourself, infinite means boundless. Clearly the scanner is bounded by the solar system you are in. Hence not infinite.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#765 - 2013-05-12 17:33:30 UTC
Fae Toledo wrote:
Aimee Maken wrote:
The removal of DSP without some form of skill comp is just unfair.

At least refund the entire old skill and let us decide to put how much into it again.


Agree with Aimee Maken. We speaking about significant time investment become pointless.


It is opening a can of worms: Give back Astrometrics skill points, then the Orca pilots complain (no more mining barge needed), then the carrier pilots (no more BS IV needed), then the Command ship pilots complain (No more Logi/HAC needed).... etc. I could understand a rebalance if Astro V wasn't needed at all, but it still is a prereq to jump portal generators and thus should not just be removed/reimbursed.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#766 - 2013-05-12 17:59:56 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Astrometrics V is a time investment, the heron low and behold is a specialized ship for scanning, and the expanded probe launcher is specialized equipment required for the DSP.
Not being able to see ships and structures is the reason why we want the DSP left in game. The discovery scanner is easy mode for cosmic signatures and anolamies, essencialy the "local chat" of scanning.


Ok, understood. You want to keep the game dumbed down, not more complicated (by having to use combat probes). Glad to hear ;-)

So a day old scanning alt in a t1 scanning ship being able to do close to what a DSP did is not dumbing the game down at all?
That is what the new system will bring.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#767 - 2013-05-12 18:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Messoroz
Octoven wrote:
Kitanga wrote:
Octoven wrote:
Rammix wrote:


And don't forget that some people still have deep safe spots (i.e. in the outer space far beyond the last planet). Not as deep as they were in 'ancient' days, but far enough.


Right, legacy deep safes STILL exist; however, I dare you to try to warp to one. Warping to a bookmark more then 10 AU from the last planet in the system is disabled, thus you can use standard combats probes to hunt people just fine.



i have a legacy safe that is 134au from the nearest planet, and yes i just warped to it without a problem. stopped reading right there...


http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-not-so-great-after-all-deep-safe-nerf-of-2010/

The blog continues by saying:

Quote:
The neatest solution would be to move all affected objects in a given system closer to the sun. However, EVE Development's resident DB guys were booked pretty solid for Tyrannis production, so the quickest solution was to instead make a few code changes to render deep-safe locations effectively inaccessible.


THAT is a confirmation that NO deep space book marks made now or since the beginning of time will work. If you are still using your then A) CCP has overlooked it and it needs to be reported or B) you are lying, I suggest providing a screen shot Big smile Eitherway, that blog doesn't say safes made before the fix were still usable, it states very clearly that NO safes beyond 20 AU will function...PERIOD. Sorry lol but its right there in teh full glory of a dev blog.

I provided my proof that they are disabled...lets see yours



Imagine a 60 AU system, now imagine all the planets are on one half of the system if there was a line going through the center. If you make a safe on the other half of the system with no celestials with bugs that still exists i.e. carriers with fighters. Then you can make yourself a safe where nobody thinks to look.

Many people do this in nullsec to rat, you just assign fighters from a cloaky carrier to a tengu.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#768 - 2013-05-12 18:14:15 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So a day old scanning alt in a t1 scanning ship being able to do close to what a DSP did is not dumbing the game down at all?
That is what the new system will bring.


Placing probes to cover a whole system is evidently more skill requiring than just launching 1 DSP and pressing "Scan". Just look what the game developers at CCP managed to produce with their spread pattern.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#769 - 2013-05-12 18:26:32 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So a day old scanning alt in a t1 scanning ship being able to do close to what a DSP did is not dumbing the game down at all?
That is what the new system will bring.


Placing probes to cover a whole system is evidently more skill requiring than just launching 1 DSP and pressing "Scan". Just look what the game developers at CCP managed to produce with their spread pattern.

because pressing "spread formation" and scan is so hard.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#770 - 2013-05-12 18:36:48 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So a day old scanning alt in a t1 scanning ship being able to do close to what a DSP did is not dumbing the game down at all?
That is what the new system will bring.


Placing probes to cover a whole system is evidently more skill requiring than just launching 1 DSP and pressing "Scan". Just look what the game developers at CCP managed to produce with their spread pattern.

because pressing "spread formation" and scan is so hard.


You know that the Spread Formation pattern is bad and has gaps in it?
ISquishWorms
#771 - 2013-05-12 18:44:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ISquishWorms
Ueberlisk wrote:
I HATE HATE HATE the fact that you launch all the probes when you want to launch just one to quickly check systems. It just doesn't make sense to me. (yes i know deep space probes have been removed.)

Is it going to be possible to change the amount of probes launched or can i set my own quick formations?
I normally only use 4 combat probes as it is what I'm used to and it minimizes the effect probes have on dscan. Based on this I would also love to keep the ability to have at least 8 probes inside the launcher for the ability to launch multiple sets without having to spend so much time reloading.



I agree. Why are you assuming I want to launch 7 probes at 16AU. Personally I feel flexibility is always preferred over trying to force people to do it a way that is perceived the norm.

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#772 - 2013-05-12 18:54:19 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So a day old scanning alt in a t1 scanning ship being able to do close to what a DSP did is not dumbing the game down at all?
That is what the new system will bring.


Placing probes to cover a whole system is evidently more skill requiring than just launching 1 DSP and pressing "Scan". Just look what the game developers at CCP managed to produce with their spread pattern.

because pressing "spread formation" and scan is so hard.


You know that the Spread Formation pattern is bad and has gaps in it?

You it takes 2 seconds to fill those gaps by holding alt + shift right?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#773 - 2013-05-12 19:15:04 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

You it takes 2 seconds to fill those gaps by holding alt + shift right?


Yes. So, which is faster and takes less skill? Launching 1 probe or launching 7/8 probes and adjusting them?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#774 - 2013-05-12 19:35:39 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

You it takes 2 seconds to fill those gaps by holding alt + shift right?


Yes. So, which is faster and takes less skill? Launching 1 probe or launching 7/8 probes and adjusting them?

7/8 and adjusting them takes rolling a new character and putting it in the right ship, a DSP take almost 2 weeks to train to use, so you do the math.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#775 - 2013-05-12 19:38:10 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

7/8 and adjusting them takes rolling a new character and putting it in the right ship, a DSP take almost 2 weeks to train to use, so you do the math.


You... you are joking, right? You know that you can reload probes and don't need to biomass every time your probe launcher is empty?
ISquishWorms
#776 - 2013-05-12 19:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ISquishWorms
The more I see of this new scanning the less I like it. Seems to me like it has become a move something over a dot and click fest now even less variation and skill required than before. At least before there was the option and scope for trying out different formations and some had their own preferred formation which would need adjusting in accordance with probe resizing. Now it seems like a move over dot resize routine to the point that why even bother with formations at all as everyone will be doing exactly the same thing. There will be even less variation about how people choose to scan you could almost replace the probes now with a button that you click a different amount of times based on your skill points in exploration.

What I have seen so far has just made me want to ditch probing altogether. Ugh

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.
Roel Yento
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#777 - 2013-05-12 19:56:26 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Astrometrics V is a time investment, the heron low and behold is a specialized ship for scanning, and the expanded probe launcher is specialized equipment required for the DSP.
Not being able to see ships and structures is the reason why we want the DSP left in game. The discovery scanner is easy mode for cosmic signatures and anolamies, essencialy the "local chat" of scanning.


Ok, understood. You want to keep the game dumbed down, not more complicated (by having to use combat probes). Glad to hear ;-)


How about we make it even harder and only allow combats to read at 16au? Will take more skill to fully check a system and be even more complex? Where do you decide to draw the line on what is complex enough to be implemented? DSP's are easy mode for those that chose to invest into them. Why did you train astro to 5? For 8 combats? I did it for 8 probes and using dsp's but more so for dsp's. I am not saying scanning is impossible without them or i won't continue on without them but as has been stated before they have a function that is completely being removed. I could understand them being reworked to not let people cherry pick sites but regardless there is no reason to do that. Everyone can train astro to 5 to make scanning faster and easy. If you don't want to then you don't have too.

The only reason to actually remove dsp's is for pve reasons to make it a more level playing field for new accounts. They are pushing exploration and if new players get into exploration that means more people out roaming and having fun, thus more accounts. That is the reason why i am fine with their pve use being removed. Still no valid reason to remove their pvp use though, hence why they haven't responded to comments about the dsp's combat use.

At the least, i just want to hear why their pvp use is being removed. Whatever they say goes regardless but info is always nice to have.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#778 - 2013-05-12 20:09:55 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

7/8 and adjusting them takes rolling a new character and putting it in the right ship, a DSP take almost 2 weeks to train to use, so you do the math.


You... you are joking, right? You know that you can reload probes and don't need to biomass every time your probe launcher is empty?

Wow really I never newRoll
Lets see per odyssey time to make a scanning alt for WH is at the minimum 16 days, post odyssey time to make a WH scanning alt, at the maximum 4 days.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#779 - 2013-05-12 20:22:43 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Kitanga wrote:
Eve is a complex game and people should be able to play it as they wish. removing DSP (or even removing readable percentages) is a dumbing down of the game, there is no question about it.


Making it more complicated to determine what a signature is not means dumbing down? Currently with 1 DSP I can: See every uncloaked ship in the system, every tower, every drone, every anom, every signature. By using the leet skill known as "reading" I can then ignore sigs I'm not interested in. That sounds like easy mode dumbed down to me.

So giving scanning a "local chat" of its own is not dumbing it down? Why should you get all the information for free as soon as you enter a system?
DSPs are not easy mode, takes a siginificant time investment, special ships and equipment to use them.


Actually you DONT get all the information for free entering a system. You get local chat that tells you how many players are in the system and you get the D-Scan2.0 which tells you how many sigs and anoms are in the system. It will not however tell you how many structures, what types, ships, and what types of ships are in the system. To do that you will still need to pop those probes out.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#780 - 2013-05-12 20:24:21 UTC
Messoroz wrote:



Imagine a 60 AU system, now imagine all the planets are on one half of the system if there was a line going through the center. If you make a safe on the other half of the system with no celestials with bugs that still exists i.e. carriers with fighters. Then you can make yourself a safe where nobody thinks to look.

Many people do this in nullsec to rat, you just assign fighters from a cloaky carrier to a tengu.


Yes, thank you I do believe between the two of us arguing we have established those facts Lol