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I think you're misunderstanding everything, Fozzie.

1. The ore has to be moved into the station for refining (haulers move it to POS, because the docking/undocking timer, the kickout velocity, docking crawling, etc takes time), and not all ice systems have refineries, so the ice has to be moved to the refinery
2. What's being sold on the market is really isotopes, not ice cubes. And if it were ice cubes, someone would still have to move it to the refinery.
3. it's just ice compression, not ore compression what is the issue
4. You are currently not just not improving ice compression, but make it even more problematic than it is currently
5. Ice compression has nothing to do with the choice of market. The topes are going to the market, and not the ice.

They're being replaced by anomalies everywhere, it's just that Amarr space isn't getting anomalies in every system that currently has the belts.

Yes but was not that CSM meeting considered the players input into that plan?

I refer to the questions raised by the developers to the CSM.

It was basically asked what would be required to promote/encourage null sec industry. Would unlimited slots in outposts do it? The reply was that was a good start.

The bigger problem was mineral supply.

I see solutions to these specific issues in Odyseey. If this CSM summit had nothing to do with Odyseey than why are the Odyseey features based on what was discussed there?

Null sec stations and outposts have gotten more manufacturing slots across the board.

The changes to ore composition, is one of the things I have been advocating for some time. Also a great change, this will go a long way to balance the mineral supply in null sec.

The changes to ICE fields I did not see coming, but I can see the logic behind it. Unlimited supply was a broken mechanic. Reducing the size of ICE belts, and making them deplete was a good move. changing them over to anomalies is not a big deal, I see that aspect having zero impact. Anomalies are just as easy to find as static belts. This just seems like a waste of time, as anomalies as we know them currently in game are not significantly different from static plexes and belts that show on the overview. Unless there are changes to the onboard ship scanners that make that task more challenging. Similar to the probe mechanics we currently have. But there has been no comment to indicate to me this might be the case.


However the decision to move gravametric sites to anomalies just does not make sense to me. This is a totally different situation from the ICE belts. The ICE belts were static, that change just adds some depth. But gravametric sites require significant effort, equipment, and skills to find. Sure a skilled probe user can find them almost as easily as an anomaly, but they need the skills and equipment to do the job. Moving them to anomalies has basically dumbed them down. Now any idiot can find them without any scanning skills or effort. How is this an improvement?

On top of this we have the safety issue. Mining in null sec is barely doable as it is. Many do it, but the risk level is fairly high. Nobody mines in the static belts unless deep inside alliance territory where you never see a non blue. Null sec mining is restricted to gravametric sites, not just because they have better ores, but because they offer an added level of safety. This change removes that level of safety. You have commented that alliances will have to step up and protect their miners. Do you play the same EVE I do? That just will not happen.

To most PVPers, carebears, or in this case nullbears are little more than squatters and scavengers not worth a second thought, unless you are shooting at them. It is carebears and null bears that are the common ganking targets in all MMO's. Why? Because PVPers hate carebears. It really is that simple. EVE is no different from other MMO's in this respect.

No PVPer is going to drop whatever they are doing to go play babysitter to a bunch of miners. Some of the huge alliances may force members to do so, but I thought CCP wanted to support smaller groups rather than the huge blocks that make null sec so stagnant. This change does not support smaller groups trying to get a foot hold in null.

Almost every change in Odyseey looks like a major improvement, I will however only speak of the ones that affect my gameplay directly.

There is just this one change I see causing me major problems. based on the comments of this thread, most other null sec miners have the same issues. Only the gankers are supporting this change, as they believe it will give them easier targets. Why must EVE be made easier for gankers and harder for industrial players? Gankers have it far to easy already.

I lived in Null sec for two years, I mostly supported myself with mining, I did PVP and join CTA's when ever I was on, But I was basically still and indy player. I left Null sec when the alliance I was in lost their space. No hard feelings, this is what EVE is all about. However, my wife had our second child at about the same time and I got very busy at work. I have since been stuck in high sec for about two years. I just have not had the time to spend in game to reestablish new Null sec roots and get back out there. But I do have plans to.

I just don't see how my plan can work with this change. Mining in Null sec is high risk, even in friendly space. That little bit of security you get from knowing that when you are in a grav sites nobody can find you without probes was a big deal. That was what made null sec mining work. Now you plan to take that away, while giving us nothing new to mitigate the risk associated with industrial activity in dangerous space. The added availability of manufacturing slots is nice, as well as the changes to ore composition, but these changes will make little difference if there are no nullbears left to take advantage of them.

I know Odyssey was not about making players move to null sec. But I was under the impression that it was among other things about supporting and encouraging null sec industry. This change goes against the grain when compared to all the other changes Odyseey brings.

As one of the few actual industrialist in 0.0 I am loving this update. It would mean I would have to import a whole let less minerals from empire. Throw away half of my compression and just buy from local miners. But then looking closer at numbers, there is a great deal of trit and pyerite coming. But little to none mexallon. So just looking at trit and pye we can actully do quite some production but then we have this huge bottleneck of mexallon.

Here are the numbers: www.firvain.org/ss/20130510181132275.png

Looking at it, If we mine the Giant belt 13 times, we have all the trit, pye, isogen, nocx, zydrine and megacyte. but we are only a third on our way for mexallon. So we still have this massive gap of minerals and instead of having several minerals which you can counter with compression. Lackign only 1 mineral is pretty hard to compress. So there needs to be more mexallon in the belts to really fix this problem. Or we are still where we are now

This doesn't makes sense. All the ice fields in the three empires are being removed and anomalies replaces them. Why not remove the ice fields in Amarr empire aswell and also replace them with anomalies.
Now, as I understand it correctly, all the ice fields in the empires are being removed, with the exception for Amarr space.
Amarr space still will have static ice fields.
Here's the list of systems that will keep static ice fields:

Afivad, Agal, Avada, Bashakru, Chanoun, Dantan, Dihra, Erkinen, Esteban, Gamis, Gelhan, Gosalav, Jarzalad, Jerma, Kothe, Manatirid, Miah, Moutid, Ordion, Raravoss, Riavayed, Seil, Talidal, Warouh.


Even if the ice fields in Amarr space would be removed and anomalies replaces them, that wouldn't mean there would be an inbalance in fuel.

With this exception, my guess would be that the prices of minnie, galente and caldari ice will go skyhigh, because you can find those only through anomalies and Amarr ice will be stable or drop a little because you still have static ice fields.

If this is the case, I'm happy and have nothing more to say.
thank you :)

and btw. just a general question.

which one of u guys had the idea that there is no ice mining in 0.0? and that it is far to dangerous?
our ICE Miners have like 40 miners in each sys with retrievers(and that are 4 people with like 10 accounts each). they assist the drones to someone in a BS or so.
if a neutral comes in, we just shoot them. what should they do against our 200 hobbies? and if we loose the retrievers we dont care. cuz we earn them in like half an hour? or even get them free from corp. so all thats happening is damaging crappy 1-2 account miners cuz they have to run around and search for belts where there are no cuz we multiboxer just empty them in like half an hour.

at this moment only one of our ice sys produces about 20000 blocks of Dark glitter a day. just fyi

thats what one of our multiboxers got: http://i.imgur.com/jOObBOE.png

actually it allready happend that some dudes brought some blackops with their bomber. we lost about 10 retrievers yes. but we killed 1 blackops + bomber who made the cyno. so we won the isk war and those guys have never been seen again.
so if u use retrievers its really hard for the neuts to win the isk war. that mostly drives the pvper away.

So if I understand it correctly CCP wants ice to be a strategic resource and to be so significant quantities of those resources have to be mined in 0.0. The distribution of ice types was designed around the assumption that strontium would be the most valuable ice product which turned out not to be the case.

Now CCP is restricting ice mining in hisec to force people to mine it in 0.0. In the process hundreds of ice miner accounts will be cancelled. Oddyssey will cause the largest drop in active accounts since Incarna.
In addition to this I don't think the solution CCP is now planning to implement will be very effective in turning ice into a conflict driver.

Since the cause of the problem is known, an alternative solution is easy to find. Strontium should be made more scarce. CCP could increase strontium consumption by raising the fuel needed for siege cycles, or find new uses for strontium. Another solution would be to simply remove the 1 strontium found in hisec ice.

Was actualy wondering the same thing. Seems a lot if not all the low-sec systems will only be used for ratting and FW. No reward in mining in any of those with the current changes.