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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#721 - 2013-05-09 10:53:19 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:


The extra medslot and fittings are a pretty big deal, really. My concerns about the Raven (and Typhoon) aren't to do with the stats of cruise or the ship hulls themselves, both of which look fairly solid now, they're more to do with the meta and the existence of ABCs. Tone down ABCs further and we may see some gamespace open up for small-gang BS action.
Seven mids is nice; and I am looking forward to my CNR getting the same, but... if Cruise Missiles had remained unchanged... would this Odyssey Raven change have lead to more usage, especially considering the increased cost of Battleships coming with Odyssey?
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#722 - 2013-05-09 10:57:50 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
I'd disagree there. -edit-

buffs don't always have to be in the form of extra turrets or different bonuses after all. the raven has received a softer, more even handed buff which fills in a lot of its issues while its most critical issue...
If there wasn't a Cruise Missile buff, would these changes of had a major effect on Raven usage? In your opinion.


honestly? no.

torpedo ravens would see some more use, but the real gem of the new raven layout which makes it a real winner is the new cruise launchers, in which it completely trounces the typhoon for comparable effect.

cruise missiles, as they currently exist, are sadly just not an option. however the combination of these raven buffs AND improved cruise? a match made in heaven. the raven's ability to properly deploy these new cruise missiles, something the typhoon is quite simply unable to match thanks to the raven's velocity bonus on missiles is what really makes me adore this new ship.

the cruise buff alone nor the raven buff alone wouldn't have cut it, but both? works joyously

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#723 - 2013-05-09 11:13:41 UTC
I'll make 4 arguments categorized in 2x2

1: PvP and Torps

There is NO fantasy land where 1v1 BS combat occurs. Even if it does, it is a very very very special occassion, or setup.

There will be very very few cases where the extra range for torps, or the velocity of target BS will matter. Opponents will be webbed down by either you or another gang mate and the combat will happen at close range. You'll be scoring full/near full damage to all BC/BS/Cap and beyond. So if your gang is shield gang go with raven, if armor gang go with phoon. The difference of additional BCS's on raven will be offset by drones and multiple TP's on phoon. So I would expect a similar performance.

....and if you are shooting torps at cruisers, you have brought wrong suit to party. Deal with it.

2: PvP and Cruises

If you are pvp'ing and using cruises, chances are you have a specific kiting fleet that has to deal with stationary/slow moving targets.....or enemy profile consists of t3's and you have to go in battleships.

For cruises raven's range bonus is....well...I will not say useless but it is of secondary importance. For this kind of setup phoons bonus will be actually more useful as there will probably be no webs involved and for possible cruiser/t3 opponents additional painters and exp vel bonus will prove more effective on applied total damage.

3: PvE and Torps

Not enough TP's and no exp velocity bonus on raven, not enough range on typhoon. Both will seriously suck for any serious PvE activity if going torps.

4: PvE and Cruises

2 x Rigor rigged Raven with 1 TP can apply almost full damage to cruiser sized targets, use a mjd, use 5 meds + 1 low for tank and 4 BCS's for damage. Even the drone bay, exp velocity and additional TP(s) won't bring phoon close to rigor raven performance.

So:

PvP with Torps : Both OK
PvP with Cruises: Both OK with advantage to Phoon
PvE with Torps: Both Suck
PvE with Cruises: Both OK with advantage to Raven

So Phoon is better at PvP while Raven is better at PvE
...
...
...
Nothing new here move on.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#724 - 2013-05-09 11:17:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
if Cruise Missiles had remained unchanged... would this Odyssey Raven change have lead to more usage, especially considering the increased cost of Battleships coming with Odyssey?


This question is irrelevant, because we are getting a Cruise Missile buff.

Quote:
For cruises raven's range bonus is....well...I will not say useless but it is of secondary importance. For this kind of setup phoons bonus will be actually more useful as there will probably be no webs involved and for possible cruiser/t3 opponents additional painters and exp vel bonus will prove more effective on applied total damage.


I've heard this claim in both this thread and the Cruise Missile thread. It's not a range bonus, it's a velocity bonus. Huge difference, as velocity also increases missile's ability to chase down a very fast target (read: Interceptor). Typhoon's missiles reach speeds of 7.050, while Raven's reach 10.575. Combat speed of an interceptor is somewhere in range of 6-8k (note: it's possible to get considerably more, but it's unlikely, as you need to stack implants, gang links, boosters and more). This means a Typhoon's Precision missile can quickly get in a lot of trouble, as it's kited around, effectively dealing no damage. A Raven's missile will still have a very good chance of hitting, which makes a squad with Ravens a lot harder to pin down, even with the absence of long range webs.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#725 - 2013-05-09 11:28:34 UTC
Deerin wrote:

For cruises raven's range bonus is....well...I will not say useless but it is of secondary importance. For this kind of setup phoons bonus will be actually more useful as there will probably be no webs involved and for possible cruiser/t3 opponents additional painters and exp vel bonus will prove more effective on applied total damage.


"Probably no webs involved". I have issues with this bit - if I was doing a cruise gang I'd be very keen on having some long-range webbing support available, for purposes of maintenance of range as well as application of damage. As soon as that is available, the Phoon's explovel bonus becomes redundant against many targets. Nor am I convinced that the Phoon will more easily fit painters - I'd want to shield-fit the Typhoon to maximise its mobility. leaving no room for painters.

So I think the choice is much less clear than you make out, after considering fittings and gang composition. The Raven will be slower and have more medslots for tank/ewar/tackle; the Phoon will be faster but flimsier. To me, this pushes the Typhoon for smaller gangs where mobility is more important and long-range webbing is absent, while the Raven would be favoured in larger, more organised gangs, particularly those with logi involved on either side.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#726 - 2013-05-09 11:48:36 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
...the cruise buff alone nor the raven buff alone wouldn't have cut it, but both? works joyously
Hopefully, they update the CNR within a month from Odyssey release. Seven mid slots and +1000 DPS Big smile
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#727 - 2013-05-09 11:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
if Cruise Missiles had remained unchanged... would this Odyssey Raven change have lead to more usage, especially considering the increased cost of Battleships coming with Odyssey?


This question is irrelevant, because we are getting a Cruise Missile buff..
Lol Not if you are trying to differentiate why a Raven is a 'good ship' after Odyssey.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#728 - 2013-05-09 12:03:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
actually deerin, for pvp and cruises i'd suggest the raven has the advantage. as previously mentioned, the raven's bonus is not a range bonus, its a velocity bonus.

on face value its essentially the same thing, but the big difference is that the cruise missiles are going A LOT faster. in addition to this the explosion radius on navy cruise, which lets be honest IS going to be the standard pvp ammo of choice, has an explosion radius of 247m once skills are factored in. when the tornado, for example has a 195m radius before you apply shield mods or the like. the issue is more the explosion velocity, which admittedly the typhoon does have a bonus for.

however, how much of a difference would an extra 25-30m/s of explosion velocity result in when the ships in question are already moving at 280m/s without a prop mod? of much more importance in this situation in my mind would be the rate at which the missiles reach their targets providing less opportunity for escape. allowing the cruises to apply their substantial alpha, again something the raven is likely to have the advantage with thanks to the extra room for a 4th BCU.

as previously mentioned, a raven's cruise missiles are faster than the heavy missiles from a simmilarly skilled tengu. the speed at which those missiles will cross the engagement area makes for a much better advantage against attack battlecruisers. lets be honest... with a 4600 damage alpha the cruise missiles are going crunch sniper ABC's in a handful of hits.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Bucca Zerodyme
Good For Nothing Corporation
#729 - 2013-05-09 12:24:27 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:


Because he doesn't understand missile mechanics.

Damage = Base Damage x MIN(MIN(sig / Er,1) , (Ev / Er x sig / vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) )

Where
sig = ship's signature
vel = ship's velocity
Er = Explosion Radius of missile
Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile
drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile

EDIT: Keep in mind this does not take into account the enemy ships resistances.



your ability to cut and paste from stafan's own thread serves you well young padawan. however... what happens if we... work that out? EGADS! THE MADNESS OF CHECKING NUMBERS!

so lets assuming the typhoon and raven are scrapping with eachother? after all surely that's the point of contention here? my stalwart opinion that the raven's own weapons are compensated for by the extra BCUII when it comes to raw torpedo damage and attesting that the typhoons advantage is in its ability to launch heavy drones?

as you mention, the equation doesn't take resistances into account so lets roll ahead and just look at raw damage from a single torpedo fired from each ship? makes the numbers nice and small.

so firstly the much vaunted typhoon.

explosion radius: 337m
target sig radius (raven with shield tank): 540
target velocity: 141 (lets ignore microwarping for the obvious reasons eh?)
explosion velocity: 133.5
missile damage: 898.41

crunching all those wonderful values in we find that the typhoon deals..... *drumroll* 898 damage to the raven before applying resists! huzzah! full damage application against the raven! you sirs are clearly vindicated in all things and i shall leap from the bridges of the firth of fourth in my exuberant pennance! wait? I've not done the raven yet? oh dear considering i know nothing about missiles its only right i reveal the full extents of my idiocy...

explosion radius: 337m
target sig radius: (I'm feeling friendly, lets use an armour typhoon for that signature radius eh?) 330
target velocity: 143
explosion velocity: 106
missile damage: 923 (that extra BCU does add that slight little bit of love ^_^)

now clearly seeing as i'm so god aweful wrong this shouldn't result in any number which could possibly compete? after all the raven doesn't have the explosion velocity bonus. AND its firing at a smaller signature target. its a forgone conclusion after all we can't honestly expect that the result will be.

903

huh...

well that's curious isn't it? after all you quoted the equation at me! how could this result have turned out with the raven infact applying SLIGHTLY more damage against the typhoon than the typhoon does to the raven... one might think that the difference between the raven and the typhoon when it comes to damage application against other battleships is its drone bay... who'd have thunk it :>


Dude, you did the math wrong.

Damage = Base Damage x MIN(MIN(sig / Er,1) , (Ev / Er x sig / vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) )
explosion radius: 337m
target sig radius: (I'm feeling friendly, lets use an armour typhoon for that signature radius eh?) 330
target velocity: 143
explosion velocity: 106
missile damage: 923 (that extra BCU does add that slight little bit of love ^_^)

Damage = 923 * MIN(MIN(330 / 337.5, 1) , (106.5 / 337.5 * 330 / 143)^(log(5.5) / log(5.5)) )
Damage = 923 * MIN(MIN(0.977, 1) , (0.728))
Damage = 923 * 0.728 = 672.13
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#730 - 2013-05-09 12:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Deerin
Bucca Zerodyme wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:


Because he doesn't understand missile mechanics.

Damage = Base Damage x MIN(MIN(sig / Er,1) , (Ev / Er x sig / vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) )

Where
sig = ship's signature
vel = ship's velocity
Er = Explosion Radius of missile
Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile
drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile

EDIT: Keep in mind this does not take into account the enemy ships resistances.



your ability to cut and paste from stafan's own thread serves you well young padawan. however... what happens if we... work that out? EGADS! THE MADNESS OF CHECKING NUMBERS!

so lets assuming the typhoon and raven are scrapping with eachother? after all surely that's the point of contention here? my stalwart opinion that the raven's own weapons are compensated for by the extra BCUII when it comes to raw torpedo damage and attesting that the typhoons advantage is in its ability to launch heavy drones?

as you mention, the equation doesn't take resistances into account so lets roll ahead and just look at raw damage from a single torpedo fired from each ship? makes the numbers nice and small.

so firstly the much vaunted typhoon.

explosion radius: 337m
target sig radius (raven with shield tank): 540
target velocity: 141 (lets ignore microwarping for the obvious reasons eh?)
explosion velocity: 133.5
missile damage: 898.41

crunching all those wonderful values in we find that the typhoon deals..... *drumroll* 898 damage to the raven before applying resists! huzzah! full damage application against the raven! you sirs are clearly vindicated in all things and i shall leap from the bridges of the firth of fourth in my exuberant pennance! wait? I've not done the raven yet? oh dear considering i know nothing about missiles its only right i reveal the full extents of my idiocy...

explosion radius: 337m
target sig radius: (I'm feeling friendly, lets use an armour typhoon for that signature radius eh?) 330
target velocity: 143
explosion velocity: 106
missile damage: 923 (that extra BCU does add that slight little bit of love ^_^)

now clearly seeing as i'm so god aweful wrong this shouldn't result in any number which could possibly compete? after all the raven doesn't have the explosion velocity bonus. AND its firing at a smaller signature target. its a forgone conclusion after all we can't honestly expect that the result will be.

903

huh...

well that's curious isn't it? after all you quoted the equation at me! how could this result have turned out with the raven infact applying SLIGHTLY more damage against the typhoon than the typhoon does to the raven... one might think that the difference between the raven and the typhoon when it comes to damage application against other battleships is its drone bay... who'd have thunk it :>


Dude, you did the math wrong.

Damage = Base Damage x MIN(MIN(sig / Er,1) , (Ev / Er x sig / vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) )
explosion radius: 337m
target sig radius: (I'm feeling friendly, lets use an armour typhoon for that signature radius eh?) 330
target velocity: 143
explosion velocity: 106
missile damage: 923 (that extra BCU does add that slight little bit of love ^_^)

Damage = 923 * MIN(MIN(330 / 337.5, 1) , (106.5 / 337.5 * 330 / 143)^(log(5.5) / log(5.5)) )
Damage = 923 * MIN(MIN(0.977, 1) , (0.728))
Damage = 923 * 0.728 = 672.13


Apparently he used 540 sig instead of 330 for the 3rd term of function.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#731 - 2013-05-09 12:51:56 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
...the cruise buff alone nor the raven buff alone wouldn't have cut it, but both? works joyously
Hopefully, they update the CNR within a month from Odyssey release. Seven mid slots and +1000 DPS Big smile


It can already put out 1550DPS, just its damage application is ****!!!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#732 - 2013-05-09 12:54:55 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Bucca Zerodyme wrote:

Dude, you did the math wrong.

Damage = Base Damage x MIN(MIN(sig / Er,1) , (Ev / Er x sig / vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) )
explosion radius: 337m
target sig radius: (I'm feeling friendly, lets use an armour typhoon for that signature radius eh?) 330
target velocity: 143
explosion velocity: 106
missile damage: 923 (that extra BCU does add that slight little bit of love ^_^)

Damage = 923 * MIN(MIN(330 / 337.5, 1) , (106.5 / 337.5 * 330 / 143)^(log(5.5) / log(5.5)) )
Damage = 923 * MIN(MIN(0.977, 1) , (0.728))
Damage = 923 * 0.728 = 672.13


Apparently he used 540 sig instead of 330 for the 3rd term of function.


I think the assumption of max base speed is unrealistic anyway. Both should be webbed, resulting in 100% of 843 DPS to the Raven and 98% of 948 DPS to the Typhoon, assuming dual-BCS buffer armour Phoon and triple-BCS ASB Raven. Both ships are likely to use a set of med drones - the Typhoon does get a bigger EFT number with 4x heavies, but it's a bit inflexible for my liking.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#733 - 2013-05-09 12:57:32 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
...the cruise buff alone nor the raven buff alone wouldn't have cut it, but both? works joyously
Hopefully, they update the CNR within a month from Odyssey release. Seven mid slots and +1000 DPS Big smile


It can already put out 1550DPS, just its damage application is ****!!!
Well, is was talking about Cruise Missiles CNR with two Rigor II's and a Flare II, plus painter. Damage applicant is very good.

Note: with skills of course.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#734 - 2013-05-09 13:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
well huh... ballocks, it appears that i did indeed fumble my numbers there.

i withdraw such claims of the raven being able to land torpedo damage so highly unaided post haste in light of my own arsefuckery.

however... on correction of my own numbers i was fortunate enough to stumble over the solution to the issue. the application of a target painter, meta 4, adjusts the signature radius of the typhoon from 330 to 453.75.

which in turn, upon corrections produces a 100% damage application value, according to the equation at least assuming i've not hammered in something wrong again ^_^

considering the fits provided previously featured such a module, happy times \o/

pardon for my error ^_^

+1 to Bucca for catching that :D

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#735 - 2013-05-09 14:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
It's not a painter you want, it's a web - it keeps your target tackled and helps much more with damage application against smaller stuff.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#736 - 2013-05-09 15:16:52 UTC
true, but the range is limmited to under 13km, the raven after all has that rather superb 30km flight time on torps. why not make use of it ^^

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#737 - 2013-05-09 15:51:51 UTC
Not really sure if I am following the point of the tier 1 caldari battleships. Have some questions for y'all.


  1. Why choose a Rokh over a Talos? If the reply is tank, then my response is sniper.
  2. Why choose a Raven over a Rokh? If the reply is range, then my response is time to impact from missiles.
  3. If cruise Raven, then I must ask who engages at 200+ km and has the luxury of waiting the 5 minutes until the first volley impacts?
  4. If torp Raven, then time to impact is still the first issue and range is much less than Rokh (about 50 km?). If that weren't enough dps compared to the other instant damage battleships seems a bit on the small side.
    5. Seems you would be lucky to get around 400 dps from the cruise and 650 dps from the torps if my memory serves me. Long time since the last time I wanted to fly any one of them. Are these questions correct and are there good answers to them?

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#738 - 2013-05-09 18:38:04 UTC
Deerin wrote:
I'll make 4 arguments categorized in 2x2

1: PvP and Torps

There is NO fantasy land where 1v1 BS combat occurs. Even if it does, it is a very very very special occassion, or setup.

There will be very very few cases where the extra range for torps, or the velocity of target BS will matter. Opponents will be webbed down by either you or another gang mate and the combat will happen at close range. You'll be scoring full/near full damage to all BC/BS/Cap and beyond. So if your gang is shield gang go with raven, if armor gang go with phoon. The difference of additional BCS's on raven will be offset by drones and multiple TP's on phoon. So I would expect a similar performance.

....and if you are shooting torps at cruisers, you have brought wrong suit to party. Deal with it.

2: PvP and Cruises

If you are pvp'ing and using cruises, chances are you have a specific kiting fleet that has to deal with stationary/slow moving targets.....or enemy profile consists of t3's and you have to go in battleships.

For cruises raven's range bonus is....well...I will not say useless but it is of secondary importance. For this kind of setup phoons bonus will be actually more useful as there will probably be no webs involved and for possible cruiser/t3 opponents additional painters and exp vel bonus will prove more effective on applied total damage.

3: PvE and Torps

Not enough TP's and no exp velocity bonus on raven, not enough range on typhoon. Both will seriously suck for any serious PvE activity if going torps.

4: PvE and Cruises

2 x Rigor rigged Raven with 1 TP can apply almost full damage to cruiser sized targets, use a mjd, use 5 meds + 1 low for tank and 4 BCS's for damage. Even the drone bay, exp velocity and additional TP(s) won't bring phoon close to rigor raven performance.

So:

PvP with Torps : Both OK
PvP with Cruises: Both OK with advantage to Phoon
PvE with Torps: Both Suck
PvE with Cruises: Both OK with advantage to Raven

So Phoon is better at PvP while Raven is better at PvE
...
...
...
Nothing new here move on.


2 rigor on a phoon? oh wait, we cant do that..That would open that gap you just tried to close with the raven and phoon.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#739 - 2013-05-09 18:58:08 UTC
After all the math, input speed, also if you want the raven to be faster than the phoon, you also have to drop a BCS and add a nano fiber.

So take away some of that damage now.

Lets not forget that adding rigors in the rig slot takes away tank which the raven can not spare.

So armor fit the phoon, fill the multitudes of mids with all the ewar, in which it wont need any missile rigs, just straight tank and you now have a ship that has a better tank than the raven, while still applying better dps unless the raven has tackle and even then, its still close.

The phoon is a better ship. Without this cruise buff, the raven would be sitting in the hangar. If the phoon change stayed and cruise were not buffed. It is still a better ship in applying torp and cruise damage.


Caldari might see very dangerous ships eventually when devs get over the fascination of Matar.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#740 - 2013-05-09 19:06:25 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Deerin wrote:

4: PvE and Cruises

2 x Rigor rigged Raven with 1 TP can apply almost full damage to cruiser sized targets, use a mjd, use 5 meds + 1 low for tank and 4 BCS's for damage. Even the drone bay, exp velocity and additional TP(s) won't bring phoon close to rigor raven performance.


2 rigor on a phoon? oh wait, we cant do that..That would open that gap you just tried to close with the raven and phoon.



You can but it is pointless. You'll be applying your damage to the fullest due to multiple TP's anyway...and when you do that Raven just has the advantage of 4BCS vs 2 BCS on phoon. Rig slots are better served as tanking rigs on phoon....or damage rigs if you love taking risks.