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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

First post First post First post
Author
Octoven
Stellar Production
#221 - 2013-05-09 11:12:37 UTC
Altrue wrote:


But but.. It's a CCP logo ! You can't ask them to remove it !


I've tried to scan on SISI and I have to say that it's quite awful. Does any of you have figured how to move all the probes close to their center of gravity ?

BEFORE :
1- Push Alt
2- Grab arrow
3- Move mouse

NOW ON SISI :
1- Push Maj
2- Grab arrow
3- Release Maj
4- Push Alt
5- Move mouse (without being able to see the arrows, so your cursor is currently moving something you can't see...)

No, really, not good.


Actually the way it is now is:

1-Hold shift and click on probe range to slide it in for a tighter range.
2-Relase shift and click
3-Hold alt down and click on a probe directional handle opposite of the center and then move it inward to tighten the probe placement.

Odyssey:

1-Click the edge of any probe's range and reduce or increase it...each of the other probes will change the range and placement while staying in formation and thus do two functions in one. You are changing the range and sliding the probe along its directional axis at the same time which is a bit less time consuming.

Right now you hold shift and alt to move all probes at once. You do not hold shift or alt to move one probe at a time.

Odyssey is the exact opposite, you use shift and alt to manipulate individual probes and dont need shift and alt to manipulate them all at once and thats how it should be.
Sanny San
Hydra Inc.
#222 - 2013-05-09 11:13:35 UTC
So, i have also played a bit around with the new scanner.

On TQ I do not scan very often. That said i am also not very experienced in scanning.
My skills are not very high neither.

On SiSi yesterday i fitted an Anathema with a probe launcher and 7 sisters core probes, nothing else.

Scanning was very easy! No need to press shift, no need to sort probes...
As i am someone who has not high scanning skills and not much experience the changes help me a lot.

Although i think that most people complaining are right. It just becomes to easy. And high skills now are almost useless.
Whats with the specialists in scanning?
And finally give at least the functionality back with sorting the results... as someone said earlier.
FrAgPiraTe
Schweine im Weltall GmbH
Invidia Gloriae Comes
#223 - 2013-05-09 11:17:23 UTC
Mister Vee wrote:
Directy copy/paste of my post in the general Odyssey feedback thread, since it's relevant to this thread:

####

- It's now impossible to resize the columns in probe results. Most people (or at least, I did) minimized the 'Ship ID', 'Ship' and often even 'Ship class'. For combat probing the only worthwhile columns are 'Ship type' and 'Distance'

- Speaking of the distance column, it's entirely gone. I hope this is a bug -- if not, it kills the entire pvp metagame. F.e. bombing will be impossible and tier3 snipers will dominate everything

- It's also not possible to sort results by any column. The usual way to have probe results setup is sorted by distance close>far or far>close.

- The colors are very bright and distracting, it also doesn't line up with any other interface in Eve. Not a big fan of this.. although I do like the way percentage is shown by the length of the colored bar (just tone down the colors a bit)

- The 'warp to' button is a bit silly, hardly anyone will do a personal warp to a result at 0. Most of the times a covops will warp at distance to not get decloaked, or someone would warp squad/wing/fleet. If in most cases a right click is required anyway, why waste so much space on a 'warp to 0' button?

- Looks like 'Ignore result' and 'Ignore other results' are either reversed or just bugged in general. Results definitely aren't being hidden like they should be.

- For the love of christ let us center the camera in the probe map on celestials from the overview again. This was changed a while ago and it sucks. CCP Karkur made some inquiries to this change, but I don't know if it's on the list to put back in the client. Previously a single click on a celestial on the overview (stations, planets, moons, everything) centered the camera on it

- Probe formations are cool and useful. Dragging the entire probe set without holding shift is good too.

- It's almost impossible to tell which probe result has been selected. The color difference is minimal and the bars constantly sliding into the screen are way too distracting.

This interface really needs work before it's actually an improvement...


This +1 from a bomber FC's perspective. Having a rich amount of data is imperative.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#224 - 2013-05-09 11:18:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
Please, please talk to one of the w-space CSMs (old or new) and work closely with them in implementing the new system. It's quite obvious that the person designing these changes does not do a lot of scanning in game.

1. Preserve the feature that the scan result list can be copy-pasted. Even if it shows only bars in the game, selecting and copying it should give us the readout we currently get, including result strength numbers. Why is this important? Because many of us use chain-mapping sites that accept this input and populate the sig list, so we only have to do one scan and copy-paste the results instead of typing in every sig individually. If you remove this feature, the new system will be worse for us than what we have now, regardless of what other changes you make.

2. Change the hotkeys, for god's sake. As mentioned, alt+shift toggles the language settings on windows systems, so it's an absolute no-no. Also really awkward to use. Why does pressing just Alt not do anything anymore? It's the obvious choice for adjusting the distance between probes.
You should keep the current hotkeys as there is no reason to change them really. Alt for adjusting distance between probes, Shift for adjusting probe scan range.

3. Why only 7 probes? You really need to talk to some good scanners if you think that 7 probes is all we need. Yes, most people use 7 or less, but most people suck at scanning. They think they are good scanners because they can find every signature. A good scanner is a FAST scanner. Please talk to Jack Miton and let him explain to you why we need 8 probes, hmkay? If anything, you should change it so we can use 9 probes...

4. Why is the sorting of results gone? Sometimes I want to sort by strength, sometimes by type or sig id. Please bring this back.

5. No way to get a list of all signatures in the system anymore, seriously? We used to drop a single DSP or combat probe and do one scan to get a list of all sigs, so we know what's in the system and can also pre-sort the sigs by size. Now you remove the DSP altogether and take away the ability to just launch one probe, so we'd need to deactivate all probes except one and then scan, which is more awkward than before.
Solution: Since you display sigs on the sensor overlay anyway, show the sig list also in the scanner windows when doing a scan without probes launched (and make the list copy-able as mentioned in #1).
edit: Admittedly this is a minor issue... still, showing the sigs not only in space but also in the scanner window would be nice.

To end this on a positive note: I like that many things that required fiddly clicking and multiple key presses now work by just dragging the mouse. Also that brackets do not get in the way anymore.

UPDATE: After more testing, I realize that it does not make sense to critisize the changes based on how scanning works now on TQ, because there were other unmentioned changes, namely it has become much easier to scan signatures. It seems that we may not need 8 probes after all because scanning will be faster with 7 probes and the default formation than it is now with 8 probes and a custom formation. Scanning will be super-fast and super-easy. Definitely a big dumbing-down, but I kinda like it because it may bring more people into w-space and it will reduce time spent on mapping out chains.

.

Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#225 - 2013-05-09 11:20:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven
After testing the new probing system on Sisi I have to admit that it is very newbie friendly and after 10 minutes veterans will not have any problems using it. It is very simplified interface and mechanic though, no sure if it is too simple. Actually the probe information window can be removed as it has no role anymore with the pure left click mouse interface.

I tried the hacking minigame, it's behaviour is very inconsistet. Sometimes you can hack without a module on your ship, sometimes you have to. Also the attributes you have in it doesn't seem to apply hacking skills which would make sense. Better skills should mean higher points in the minigame! It is probably due to the early version of this gameplay idea. It needs more love!

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW

Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#226 - 2013-05-09 11:35:06 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Altrue wrote:

I've tried to scan on SISI and I have to say that it's quite awful. Does any of you have figured how to move all the probes close to their center of gravity ?

BEFORE :
1- Push Alt
2- Grab arrow
3- Move mouse

NOW ON SISI :
1- Push Maj
2- Grab arrow
3- Release Maj
4- Push Alt
5- Move mouse (without being able to see the arrows, so your cursor is currently moving something you can't see...)

No, really, not good.


You can still use Shift-Alt to move probes towards center, but why would you?

Click launch probes
Move the single visible probe onto sig
Change radius by resizing any probe sphere, probes will automatically move towards center
Click Scan

Much much easier now, no more pointless clicking and moving probes by hand.


Sort of. The probes don't automatically move into formation if you resize them from the probe menu. I hope and pray that this is a bug. However, I found that I needed to check the location of the probes after resizing from the map. It looks like the probes aren't actually retaining their relative distance to one another half of the time. This may be a glitch in the way the central arrows are displayed/scaled, but I ended up holding shift to inspect the formation after every resize and tweaking it with alt-shift a lot.

If that's a glitch somehow, well and good, but I don't just scan with my probes in one formation all the time forever. I'll be using the alt-drag less, but I will still want it.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#227 - 2013-05-09 11:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Why 7? I don't understand this at all.

I have been probing for years and 4 is usually enough for going after single sites, 5 is needed on harder ones, or 5 is used to hold the next sig for scan. For dual scanning 8 is preferred and I won't even get into combat probing.

So scanning has been dumbed down for low experienced probers, but made a PITA for longterm or skilled probers.

E: Allow "clusters" to be player programmed.
Allow single probes to be launched
Keep DSP for those who don't want to use the scanner. Also for those of us that can filter results based off of sig str off of DSP.
Switch results so they don't auto highlight all results after each scan. Keep ignoring all results on accident because of this.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

seth Hendar
I love you miners
#228 - 2013-05-09 11:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
CCP Paradox wrote:
Honestly guys, I want feedback AFTER you have used the features. Not before!
Singularity will be up shortly.

7 probes limit suck, just tested it on sisi.

PLEASE REMOVE THIS LIMITATION ASAP.

seriously, wtf this is just random and arbitrary limitation

make it so we can launch all the loaded probes, or a specific amount we can custom, from 1 to 7 or 10 or whatever, but 7 or nothing is just plain ridiculous
Octoven
Stellar Production
#229 - 2013-05-09 11:44:16 UTC
Ethan Revenant wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Altrue wrote:

I've tried to scan on SISI and I have to say that it's quite awful. Does any of you have figured how to move all the probes close to their center of gravity ?

BEFORE :
1- Push Alt
2- Grab arrow
3- Move mouse

NOW ON SISI :
1- Push Maj
2- Grab arrow
3- Release Maj
4- Push Alt
5- Move mouse (without being able to see the arrows, so your cursor is currently moving something you can't see...)

No, really, not good.


You can still use Shift-Alt to move probes towards center, but why would you?

Click launch probes
Move the single visible probe onto sig
Change radius by resizing any probe sphere, probes will automatically move towards center
Click Scan

Much much easier now, no more pointless clicking and moving probes by hand.


Sort of. The probes don't automatically move into formation if you resize them from the probe menu. I hope and pray that this is a bug. However, I found that I needed to check the location of the probes after resizing from the map. It looks like the probes aren't actually retaining their relative distance to one another half of the time. This may be a glitch in the way the central arrows are displayed/scaled, but I ended up holding shift to inspect the formation after every resize and tweaking it with alt-shift a lot.

If that's a glitch somehow, well and good, but I don't just scan with my probes in one formation all the time forever. I'll be using the alt-drag less, but I will still want it.


Ah yes I see what you mean, I tend to adjust my probes range by clicking in space lol I forget some people do it via the scanner window. Hopefully its just a bug.
Mario delTorres
Praetore Im Picaro Ama
#230 - 2013-05-09 11:45:28 UTC
The only reason to skill Astometrics to V is requirment for Jump Bridge Generation now?
It's very sad that combat probes no more, but I have another IDEA to make people with Atrometrics V smile.

Just make T2 probe launcher as good as Sisters version and add T2 versions of probes. This changes recompense this skill training and add a little advantage against people they not.

I think a lot was told about new scanning system, but my thinks:
- spread formations left empty gaps in space. Few minutes ago i scanned system and found 2 unknown sites with spread formations, and 3 unknown sites with pinpoint formation. Probes should be closer to central one.
- add possibility do define default formation that is activated after click in launcher module,
- add possibility do fefine default range of probes launched in every formation,
- should be possible do define new formations,
- should be possible do scan with not only 7 probes, and save it as personal formation,
- remember 100% hits,
- When i jump into system overlay appears and results are seen few seconds only, time to display should be longer, or at least configured. Additionally results of this system scan should be shown in scanner pannel after opening.
- clicking on scan result on the list when "Track camera" option is turned on, should sets camera on this result,
- give a little bonus for skille "Encryption methods" skill, for example: "+1 virus coherensy bonus per level Amarr Encryption Methods when hacking Sansha or Blood Raiders data cans"
- all new scan modules should be merged into one only with little bonus to all three parameters, and scriptable to focus on one only.

Please give an info when minisites will be playable.

Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#231 - 2013-05-09 11:46:42 UTC
Mister Vee wrote:
Directy copy/paste of my post in the general Odyssey feedback thread, since it's relevant to this thread:

####

- It's now impossible to resize the columns in probe results. Most people (or at least, I did) minimized the 'Ship ID', 'Ship' and often even 'Ship class'. For combat probing the only worthwhile columns are 'Ship type' and 'Distance'

- Speaking of the distance column, it's entirely gone. I hope this is a bug -- if not, it kills the entire pvp metagame. F.e. bombing will be impossible and tier3 snipers will dominate everything

- It's also not possible to sort results by any column. The usual way to have probe results setup is sorted by distance close>far or far>close.

- The colors are very bright and distracting, it also doesn't line up with any other interface in Eve. Not a big fan of this.. although I do like the way percentage is shown by the length of the colored bar (just tone down the colors a bit)

- The 'warp to' button is a bit silly, hardly anyone will do a personal warp to a result at 0. Most of the times a covops will warp at distance to not get decloaked, or someone would warp squad/wing/fleet. If in most cases a right click is required anyway, why waste so much space on a 'warp to 0' button?

- Looks like 'Ignore result' and 'Ignore other results' are either reversed or just bugged in general. Results definitely aren't being hidden like they should be.

- For the love of christ let us center the camera in the probe map on celestials from the overview again. This was changed a while ago and it sucks. CCP Karkur made some inquiries to this change, but I don't know if it's on the list to put back in the client. Previously a single click on a celestial on the overview (stations, planets, moons, everything) centered the camera on it

- Probe formations are cool and useful. Dragging the entire probe set without holding shift is good too.

- It's almost impossible to tell which probe result has been selected. The color difference is minimal and the bars constantly sliding into the screen are way too distracting.

This interface really needs work before it's actually an improvement...


this ^.

Listen to this Man.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2013-05-09 11:48:35 UTC
see bug report 157572 :)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#233 - 2013-05-09 11:53:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
The lack of a cube-formation is important.


Atm those new features are exclusively focused on getting new players to scan properly like someone who actually trained it. Though you are ignoring the older players, who indeed do want to scan with 8 probes.

So please, if you do that instalaunch, include all three important formation, (5 for rookies, 7 for casuals, and cube/8 for actual scanners). Unlike this is getting fixed, I'll -1 this whole idea as incomplete respectively badly executed.

As someone who plays the game in map/scanmode 98% of the time, I'm very disappointed to this point. It reduces the usability and adds icky colours everywhere. This new interface most likely goes by jesus feature. Strongly disappointed as of now.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#234 - 2013-05-09 11:57:53 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
The lack of a cube-formation is important.


Atm those new features are exclusively focused on getting new players to scan properly like someone who actually trained it. Though you are ignoring the older players, who indeed do want to scan with 8 probes.

So please, if you do that instalaunch, include all three important formation, (5 for rookies, 7 for casuals, and cube/8 for actual scanners). Unlike this is getting fixed, I'll -1 this whole idea as incomplete respectively badly executed.


Or at least just allow the ability to launch probes individually.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#235 - 2013-05-09 11:57:59 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
Probe launchers can now only launch a maximum of seven probes. These probes are now launched all together. One click, launches all.


You are fu*king kidding, right?

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2013-05-09 11:58:33 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?

DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design.



Really? Then what were they pretty obviously for? They don't have the signal strength to scan anything down on their own (ie you'd never use 7 in a pattern, so why ever use more than one). And if they were just to show you in one scan all of the sigs but nothing more, they would be largely useless, especially for something that required astrometrics 5 to use.

No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#237 - 2013-05-09 12:01:51 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:


Skill Changes
Astrometrics:

  • This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1
  • Does not alter ability to launch probes, all players can now launch 7 probes.
  • Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level


Also:

  • Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.



Will the training multiplier of Astrometrics still be x3?

If you are reducing it to 1x don't forget to skill reimburse the difference.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#238 - 2013-05-09 12:06:43 UTC
He stated earlier they aren't reimbursing SP difference due to multiplier change.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#239 - 2013-05-09 12:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lors Dornick
CCP Tuxford tomorrow is a public holiday.[:=d wrote:

So new game, find when devs are responding while not working, possibly drunk and not using their mains ;)

edit: internal audit have all their characters. But the rest of us have to guess ;)

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#240 - 2013-05-09 12:13:29 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:


No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher


Exactly. Deeps are an integral part in advanced scanning. I'm still in shock they're gone.

So far the only thing I like is the ability to move the entire formation with one block, but any decent scanner had no trouble holding shift.

I'm all for making scanning more accessible to newer players, but these changes are removing advanced scanning options.