Player Features and Ideas Discussion

morning folks, back again.

seems that i've cultured some sort of hatedom here since I last logged on. sadly missed my chance to respond last evening but hey, might as well take the chance now ^_^

so, responces time!

1-

huh... *checks previous post*

"oh and what do you do if enemy fleet isnt consist of your jammer racial ships? yep you km ***** only" <--- right there?

I was asking to actually clarify what you were saying, the impression i got was that you believe that using racial jammers is a bad idea based on the chance that you might not run into opponents you can jam. considering the purpose of ECM ships in large engagements is often to counter enemy ECM and logistics this isn't as common a thing as you'd expect most of the time. and now that the new scorpion can actually tank on top of bringing 98km optimal ECM modules the prospects of it seeing more use is fairly good.

as for my usual debating method, yep my usual method is to read what my opponent posts, then point out what appears to be wrong in those statements. you appear to have said that racial jammers were a bad thing, hence why i made a point of ASKING if that's what you actually meant. feel free to shift position when you clarify. goalpost shifting seems to be the name of the game at the moment.



I love you too

on a more serious note. no... I've always been an ardent supporter of the caldari when it comes to the teiricide, the difference however is that I believe that the purpose of all this is to achieve balance and, based on what these new stats indicate the raven is going to be most excellent. while i want to ensure that no ship is shanked or underpowered I also hope to argue for no ships to be outright overpowered. the purpose of teiricide is to ensure that all ships are worth flying, not just the ones I happen to be trained for.

now, some actual responces eh?



yep, yes it is. around 70m/s isn't much but we are talking battleships here. when both ships are looking at 16 second align times the whole "turning around" thing is kind of a moot point no? ^^

as for using slightly different stats. I'm using the updated EFT files compiled and modded by the wonderful people over at failheap challenge here: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?11380-Odyssey-Changes-Rebalanced-Navy-Cruisers-T1-Cruisers-(and-EFT-files)

i highly encourage you to check any fits i post in this thread. I'll continue to provide fitting screenshots for people who wish to ask questions but even better if you make use of EFT to check my results.



http://i.imgur.com/QYpzGZq.jpg <--- 4 BCU II's, a tank, and a heavy neut fitting on all skills level 5 and no rig. even with this softer tank its interesting to see that a typhoon, without resorting to only two BCU's only tanks around the same, with 2 plates, an enam, a DCII and armour rigs. the difference is that the raven can (and really should) overheat its tank. interesting regardless.



the raven is recieving +1500 base PWG, this translates to a LOT of extra fitting once you apply skills. remember, the listed stats at the start of the thread are for "all skills at zero" :)

next post... ok fine I got terminology wrong. I'll commit seppuku later for the crime, in the meantime lets talk actual points ^^

wall of text 2, REVENGE OF THE DAMNED!



I agree, mentioning so a few times previously. however my point has never been that the raven is an out right better torpedo boat and in my mind it shouldn't. my point however is that not being the BEST at something doesn't stop a ship being GOOD at something. as a torpedo boat? the raven isn't terrible at all. the typhoon's superior application bonuses gives it a distinct advantage at targeting sub battleship vessels, however in doing so it trades raw damage for that advantage. in comparison the raven most certainly has trouble hitting smaller ships with its torpedoes for full damage, but against other battleships? its superior reach and faster missile travel times give it a nice little advantage to make up for the short comings.



1stly, yes a shield and armour tanked phoon will apply more damage. however that damage application does NOT come from its torpedoes, which has been my consistent point, the big reason that the typhoon wins out as combat draws closer is thanks to its very ample dronebay permitting the ship to bring along 4 ogre II's to the fight. the signature difference in a battleship vs battleship fight, particularly once you consider navy torpedoes as the prime ammunition, makes relatively very little difference when it comes to a raven and a typhoon scrapping, but the heavy drones? those make a difference.

if people are still incredulous on these points feel free to once again... CHECK NUMBERS.

caldari navy inferno torps (hey, first that came to hand) sports a 337m explosion radius with a 106m explosion velocity.

so right off the bat we can see a serious issue here. the weakness to the torpedoes is, ironically, not the explosion radius when hitting a typhoon (which has a base signature radius of 330, feel free to check the minmatar battleship thread) but that the explosion velocity is a mere 106m/sec.

so that begs the question, does the typhoons bonus actually allow it to apply more damage to opposing battleships with the same ammunition? no, its applying that anyways. what it DOES do is allow it to apply that damage better to smaller targets, most notably battle cruisers. where the typhoon's bonus will make a difference for fighting battleships will be making use of fury torpedoes, with their significantly bigger explosion radius and applying that damage to battleships.

so how do we solve this issue? to be blunt. webbing. something the typhoon is most certainly better suited for making use of but by this point we've started to seriously stack the deck haven't we? we've put the ships under 13kilometres, we've assumed that they've got their ideal modules and that the typhoon has its target tackled. shall we go ahead and just ensure its doing the right damage to smack through its targets weakest resist as well?

see, this is the issue i have here and why i'm arguing against further raven changes. people are not trying to compare the raven to its peer the typhoon, they're comparing it to some mythical super ship, which is faster, tankier, has more dakka, has better fitting, has more utility and apparently can cure cancer upon looking at it. the typhoon ISN'T that good.

its good certainly, but it does have failings, its got a pernaturally smaller range, a full 1/3rd less than the raven. it lacks the same raw dps application from its missiles instead relying on drones to put it ahead. its limmited to an armour tank making its inherent minmatar speed advantage vanish in the face of two big armour plates.

as i said before. we're being handed one of the best damage projection platforms in the entire game. our long range cruise missile platform will out dps any other comparible ship in terms of damage at range, 721 dps with navy cruise, THINK about that number, compare it to megathrons, to maelstroms, to abaddons and to rokhs. don't worry i'll wait for you. think about standard engagement ranges and think about sheer missile velocity.

raven cruise missiles are now FASTER than heavy missiles from a tengu. is tengu doctrine irrelevent? are we going to sneer at the prospects of having a such a glorious weapon system? or are we going to throw tantrums and toddlers demanding more?



hey, when i get sworn at, called a fool, accused of trying to ruin the balance of the game, called ignorant and constantly attacked. excuse me if i get a little grumpy in the face of casual tantrums when i voice a dissenting opinion.

Conall why do you think the golem is the king of pve today? because it can fit two tp and has expl velocity bonus. meaning with jav. torpedoes, it can effectively hit a cruiser with brutal volley damage. and it has the shield boost bonus, which allows a good tank. If it wouldn't be 800 mill ship it would literally melt every ship in pvp in the game because of it's precision bonuses

When did that happen?

which, if you'd been reading my posts in between flailing at the keyboard with indignant outrage you'll find i've been saying that from the very start. so kind of you to finally come around to the truth of the matter, even if you had to come around the long way. ^_^

And still some of you propose that we should leave things at it is now. well... my anwswer to that is this: no matter what we will tell, things will remain the same. Like we are talking to a wall. it does not matter that WE who fly the ship 24-7, we experience things as they are, some will always tell that things are fine and f*** off. Just like in the other mmo-s I've played along with eve. I realized (again) that it is worthless to post any comment, because it is dust in the wind. Thank you for reminding me to that Conall. I will reroll to Typhoon, I adore the ship hull anyway, and refrain myself from further posts. Because hey, I'm wrong right? Let the almighty devs do what they think it is best.

Sorry to make this like this, but it makes me very sad and angry. And I had enough. I told what I think is necessary, any further keyboard smashing would be a waste of time.

I believe things should stay as they are because we're being given a REALLY DAMN GOOD SHIP.

why is there an assumption that i've never flown the raven? i missioned in the bloody thing for 7 months before i looked into pvp. i understand its fundemental flaws and issues, look at the character, he's a caldari merc ^_^

but what i'm arguing is that combined with the new cruise missile changes? the new raven is an excellent ship. it spouts out more dps than a gank brutix with CRUISE MISSILES.

that's my point. we've got a ship which applies 721 dps with its long ranged weapon, a weapon which moves FASTER than heavy missiles on a missile velocity bonused tengu. that's with CN cruise, not even considering fury with target painting support. but because one other ship in another race is slightly better with torpedoes, the raven is worthless? utter drivel.

and this is the issue i have, not that the typhoon is a better torpedo boat than the raven, because i'm happy to put my hands up and say that it is. but does that mean that a torpedo raven can never be useful? hell no, the raven has enough differences and advantages to make a torpedo raven useful in other situations, part of a shield fleet, acting as dps support on a webbed target, throwing in a heavy neut to provide cap warfare. the raven can do these things better than a typhoon ever could.

the casual disregard for the benefits of one ship because another ship can do X better is a fallacy and entirely unsupportive of the entire teiricide effort. the goal is to create a balance in the game where all ships are worthwhile, not just the one's that you personally fly.

this "better in every situation" typhoon that people seem to have created as a boogie man for further raven buffs quite simply doesn't exist and the continued touting of that argument is dishonest at worst and ignorant at best.

shall we all stop flying megathrons because the hyperion can more dps? why don't we all stop flying prophecies because the myrmidon gets a bigger drone bay?

its simple, because combat isn't so simply clear cut, factors such as range, speed, alpha, rate of fire, drone bays, drone control ranges, tracking, optimals, fall offs, tracking and ship cost ALL combine to make up the tapestry which is eve combat mechanics. tericide's primary goal isn't to make every ship pefect in every situation, its to make every ship viable over a wide range of various scenarios. there are times when rokhs will be superior to abaddons, when ravens will trounce apocalypse, when armageddons will be superior to dominix and tempests will rend maelstroms.

to demand all of these things from every single ship misses the point entirely.

Is the Odyssey Raven that much better than the one available now? Really aren't we looking at a good Raven combat system because cruise missiles are getting a major buff?

The Raven platform itself, little used by many accounts before Odyssey, isn't getting a major buff.

The extra medslot and fittings are a pretty big deal, really. My concerns about the Raven (and Typhoon) aren't to do with the stats of cruise or the ship hulls themselves, both of which look fairly solid now, they're more to do with the meta and the existence of ABCs. Tone down ABCs further and we may see some gamespace open up for small-gang BS action.

that`s it, whats the point of fast battleships when you have something thats much faster and the same dps, ppl will say tank, but if you wanna do a roaming (wich is the only application i see for attack bs) you get the faster ship of the 2 class (ABC) if you wanna do something else you just get a tanky bs.


imho all ABC should have their high slots reduced to 6 and then maybe give them back the old speed agility