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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Haulie Berry
#141 - 2013-05-09 00:35:15 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
It would be nice if after you probed out a site, it turned "green" in the tactical overview (after you back out of the map screen) and you were able to warp to them/do whatever like the other available always-100% anomalies in the system.

Hacking sites are very difficult to complete, most of the time you do not have enough coherence to survive all of the antiviruses. The sites are usually laggy as well and it sometimes takes a few seconds for clicks to register, which can be frustrating.

When you are able to complete them, the hacking window bugs out and nothing is jettisoned. (Bug ID 157522)


Pretty sure it's not in yet. After you beat the minigame, you should be able to find loot with the open cargo right click option.
Beliar Gray
I'm quitting Eve PV Rock I want to talk with you
#142 - 2013-05-09 00:35:31 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
CCP Paradox has already mentioned this but it is past our bedtime here in Iceland P and tomorrow is a public holiday. So just because we are not replying doesn't mean we are ignoring you. I have read the thread and there are some recurring points we will definitely discuss internally. Most of the issues raised concern game design and I'm not really equipped to answer those issues. Those that are not seem to be just bugs which I will address.

Thanks for all the feedback, it is invaluable to us Big smile


As long as you actually listen to our suggestions we can wait.
I have a feeling that we players understand the scanning mechanics far better than you devs do.

I very much doubt you guys ever get around scanning.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2013-05-09 00:35:36 UTC
Mister Vee wrote:
Directy copy/paste of my post in the general Odyssey feedback thread, since it's relevant to this thread:

####

- It's now impossible to resize the columns in probe results. Most people (or at least, I did) minimized the 'Ship ID', 'Ship' and often even 'Ship class'. For combat probing the only worthwhile columns are 'Ship type' and 'Distance'

- Speaking of the distance column, it's entirely gone. I hope this is a bug -- if not, it kills the entire pvp metagame. F.e. bombing will be impossible and tier3 snipers will dominate everything

- It's also not possible to sort results by any column. The usual way to have probe results setup is sorted by distance close>far or far>close.

- The colors are very bright and distracting, it also doesn't line up with any other interface in Eve. Not a big fan of this.. although I do like the way percentage is shown by the length of the colored bar (just tone down the colors a bit)

- The 'warp to' button is a bit silly, hardly anyone will do a personal warp to a result at 0. Most of the times a covops will warp at distance to not get decloaked, or someone would warp squad/wing/fleet. If in most cases a right click is required anyway, why waste so much space on a 'warp to 0' button?

- Looks like 'Ignore result' and 'Ignore other results' are either reversed or just bugged in general. Results definitely aren't being hidden like they should be.

- For the love of christ let us center the camera in the probe map on celestials from the overview again. This was changed a while ago and it sucks. CCP Karkur made some inquiries to this change, but I don't know if it's on the list to put back in the client. Previously a single click on a celestial on the overview (stations, planets, moons, everything) centered the camera on it

- Probe formations are cool and useful. Dragging the entire probe set without holding shift is good too.

- It's almost impossible to tell which probe result has been selected. The color difference is minimal and the bars constantly sliding into the screen are way too distracting.

This interface really needs work before it's actually an improvement...

This, plus the scanner not remembering sigs previously scanned to 100%
It's broken until these things are fixed. Do not release it in this state.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2013-05-09 00:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
LtauSTinpoWErs wrote:
CCP Paradox wrote:
LtauSTinpoWErs wrote:
CCP Paradox wrote:
Hello future Odyssey capsuleers!



  • Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.




What happens to those people that have already trained these skills? Will they get compensated some skill points back?

And in regards to the new modules, will this make the virtue implant set pointless? Right now, it is worth the money to scan down "unscannable t3s" (granted, there aren't many of them left).


There will be no compensation for those skill changes.


I have some questions and then some information listed below. I am asking you all and especially CCP to take a look at this. Thank you.

Since the current skills are 5x and 8x mulitpliers, it means that more skillpoints have been trained for that skill. When the Odyessey changes are implemented, it will require less skillpoitns per level. Will the extra skillpoints that have already been trained for those respective skills, be put toward the skill's next level or will they simply vanish? Will a Level 4 skill currently in TQ, become Level 4.2 or 4.5 (meaning that it is closerto level 5 because of the skillpoints already trained). If so, what will be given to those who have already trained those skills to level 5?


In all due respect, please take a look at the following:

Astrometric Acquisition and Astrometric Pinpointing currently are 5x multiplier skills. To get from Level 0 to Level 4 in these respective skills, requires 226,275 skillpoints. Astrometric Rangefinding is a 8x multiplier skill which needs 362,039 skillpoints to get from Level 0 to Level 4.

The new skill changes will make Astrometric Acquisition and Astrometric Pinpointing 2.5x, although I imagine this rounds up to 3x multiplier. To reach Level 4 with a 3x multiplier skill requires 135,765 skillpoints. This means, that after the skills are adjusted for the Odyssey release, Capsuleers that have trained these skills to Level 4 will lose 90,510 skillpoints per skill.

Astrometric Rangefinding would become a 4x multipler skill, now needing only 181,020 to reach Level 4. Capsuleers that have trained this skill will lose 181,019 skillpoints.

That would be a total loss of 362,039 skillpoints if you have currently trained those skills to Level 4. It would be an even greater deficit if you have trained those skills to Level 5.

If you are average 1,900 sp/hour. Then 362,039/1,900 = 190.55 hours lost or 7.94 days thrown out the window. I don't see how losing over a week worth of training is irrelevant.

Asking for clarification here.

As I read the original post I interpreted it as meaning only the bonuses given by the skills are changing, not the training modifiers. IE: Rangefinding gives 5%/lvl rather than 10%/lvl but remains as an 8x multiplier skill and as such take no less SP or time to train.
Haulie Berry
#145 - 2013-05-09 00:38:43 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


As I read the original post I interpreted it as meaning only the bonuses given by the skills are changing, not the training modifiers. IE: Rangefinding gives 5%/lvl rather than 10%/lvl but remains as an 8x multiplier skill and as such take no less SP or time to train.



This. They are not changing the rank - they are changing the EFFECT of the skills. No compensation is needed.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#146 - 2013-05-09 00:39:56 UTC
Now that I've actually used it briefly:
- Probes are continuously deselected in the list, so if I'm changing size from there, I have to repeatedly re-select them. That's not much of a problem though, as dragging them to resize in the map is easier, faster, and automatically resizes the formation.
- When going through a wormhole with probes out, there's a warning popup that the probes will be left behind. This isn't true anymore and should probably be removed.
- System transition while on the map view (went through a wormhole, don't know about jumpgates) is bad. All the UI disappears and it looks rather incomplete and broken.
- Signatures viewed in space and signatures viewed on the map become desynchronized easily. If I've already probed down or visited a given signature, the scan overlay view in space should show that as a 100% hit. Vice versa, if I see a sig result in the space overlay, I should see something in the map.
- Leave map while probes are scanning, go back to map--box & arrows don't appear until you drag one of the globes or hit shift.
- What is the "signal strength" of results in the overlay? Is this the sensor band of the result? If so, that's kinda cool to have it visible in the overlay, it would be nice to have in the map view as well. That makes the lack of deep space probes less frustrating for quickly getting a look at the system.
- As someone who lives in a wormhole and often doesn't want to immediately warp to things I've probed down, the "warp to" button isn't a good thing. I can already warp to the site from the context menu, I don't think you need to devote that much UI space to a button for it.
- The list of probes is a lot less useful with the large print font size.
- Probe formations show up centered on the system instead of centered where I am, even though the probes themselves are where I am.

Overall it does seem to be an improved system (if you're going for ease-of-use).
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#147 - 2013-05-09 00:40:21 UTC
Loving the changes! I can understand there's limitations in places on what could be made in time, and I'm honestly fine with 7 probes.

Being able to shift, rearrange and deploy all like this is brilliant! I absolutely love this!

The new modules look cool and offer a nice bonus. Will try them out asap.

I'll get into a site as soon as I find one to run >.< Scanning is so much more enjoyable now though, and that's what I;m here for, not a professor level grind of spreadsheets, but to EXPLORE.
Tritanium Avenger
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2013-05-09 00:50:57 UTC
-I think it's ok to be able to launch only 7 probes at a time, what 's the use of launching 1 probe if 7 take the same time? only thing the number of probes you get with launcher capacity makes no sense

-As someone said, the scanner forgets about signatures already probed to 100%, i can't imagine mapping the signatures in a wh like this

-The green lines showing the probes warping are not showing

-Is the timer for probe warping/scanning gone?
Jivlain Pollard
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#149 - 2013-05-09 00:53:29 UTC
Individually clearing ignored sigs does not work properly. Specifically, it has no effect on ignored signatures and instead seems to cause all other signatures to also be ignored.
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#150 - 2013-05-09 00:56:32 UTC
Beliar Gray wrote:
Are 7 probes at lest as strong as 8 were before?
7 probes at 0.5625 is slightly stronger than 8 probes at 0.5, about 0.857% stronger (using Elisa Fir's formulas).
Naomi Hale
#151 - 2013-05-09 00:59:30 UTC
For the first release onto the test server it's pretty good. I'm liking most of it and the bits I don't are probably bugs (the hacking mini-game).

So, looks promising and I'll be looking forward to the polished version.

p.s. I'm not fussed about having 8 probes, 7 work fine, if anything it's a lot easier to scan stuff (possibly too easy)

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.
Anita1
Meinungsfreiheit
#152 - 2013-05-09 01:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Anita1
* so once again you guys are changing something and ******* over ppl who already skilled all those skills, thx for no sp reinbursment again, i understand you guys want to make it easier but is ****

* formation is nice, but i want to be able to launch less than 7 probes, cause thats basically stupid to tell us have/launch 7 probes or you are stuck forever, plus sometimes it only needs 1 probe for example to update a sig after dt

* pls make the alt shortcuts available and not stupid new stuff like alt + shift

* once probes highlighted it should stay like that, after scanning we need to do that everytime again atm

* why you guys removing deep space probes, dont remove them or give us more range on scanner probes at least, its a joke to scan a 100+ system with only 7 scanner probes

* pls give us the chance back to copy and paste sig ids, most of us using mapping tools like you know and we add ids like that into those tools, thats not working now anymore since you cant copy ids

you wanted to make it easier, you didnt, you just make it annoying to scan for those who doing that since a long time
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#153 - 2013-05-09 01:08:20 UTC
Adjusting the probe scan range does not adjust the 'pinpoint targeting' configuration, making it rather pointless as it's fixed to 4au (too small for system scanning, too broad for actual pinpoint work). I used to use 4 or 5 probes just fine in the old system, and now to use the buttons I need 7, and have to manually adjust them all as I go down through the ranges, making this system more tedious than the old one. I'd like to see the probe configurations change to optimise around the point when the range is increased/reduced, otherwise it's just more pointless busywork with a shinier appearance.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#154 - 2013-05-09 01:43:19 UTC
Galphii wrote:
Adjusting the probe scan range does not adjust the 'pinpoint targeting' configuration, making it rather pointless as it's fixed to 4au (too small for system scanning, too broad for actual pinpoint work). I used to use 4 or 5 probes just fine in the old system, and now to use the buttons I need 7, and have to manually adjust them all as I go down through the ranges, making this system more tedious than the old one. I'd like to see the probe configurations change to optimise around the point when the range is increased/reduced, otherwise it's just more pointless busywork with a shinier appearance.

Try dragging the probe spheres in the map to increase or decrease the size.
Ong
Lumberjack Commandos
#155 - 2013-05-09 01:53:54 UTC
Dunno if this has been mentioned yet, but tbh its almost 3am and I cant be arsed to read 8 pages of forums to find out.

1) When I change the size of probes by selecting the outside of a probe and dragging in or out, I need to be able to see the size of the probe before not after I scan.

2) While I always scan with 7 probes, it is vital to be able to scan with less. If I, for example got stuck in a wh and have only 5 probes for whatever reason and not 7, I can currently still scan myself out, might take more time, but its possible. Under this new mechanic I cant, this is flat out pants on head saying wibble crazy. I would flat out rage if I got stuck and could not scan myself out of a wh with 5 probes knowing I used to be able to do it with the old (current) system.
Oxigun
Halliburton Heavy Industries
#156 - 2013-05-09 01:56:46 UTC
As a dedicated WH dweller, I use scanning on a daily basis and I rely on it for my ISK (and my life). Here are some comments on the new scanning mechanism which i have now tested for over an hour...

1) I'm sorry I don't see the reason why DSPs were removed. WH dwellers use them to establish signal strength. If that is no longer going to be the idea, please tell me why. I have trained my toons to maximum skill so I can make use of this ability. I don't see why it's been taken away.
2) You have your idea of what a "useful" probe formation is and I have mine. Please let me do my job the way I want to do it, not the way you want me to do it. I understand you want to help newbs by making it easier but I'm not a newb, I want to use my own formation, whether it's 4, 7 or 8 probes. Please let me launch my probes individually as I see fit.
3) On the subject of probe numbers, I would prefer to keep the 8 probes. I believe I have a useful formation that minimizes moving/resizing of probes to scan an entire system and benefits from a larger number of probes. Once again, don't take away something you gave me and I trained for just because you think players don't use it.
4) On the key assignments and visualization: Please don't make such difficult combinations to move probe formations/resize. The previous iteration was fine, Shift and Alt had a purpose, let's not make it more complicated. I guess I can live with having to hit shift to even see the probe handle but I don't see why I have to press a key anyway.
5) Please add back the columns as they were in the previous system. We like to sort things in our own special way, whether alphabetically or by strength. There are benefits to both.

IMHO, you're trying too hard to make this "easier" for new players and removing the freedom from established players. I'm sorry to say that it feels like you're dumbing down the game just because scanning required some skill and (very few) brain cells...

Thank you for your time,

Oxi
PS: Where is the probe timer? Do probes no longer expire?
Naomi Hale
#157 - 2013-05-09 02:02:12 UTC
Oxigun wrote:
PS: Where is the probe timer? Do probes no longer expire?


This. I forgot to ask.

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.
Mad Crafter
Peek-A-Boo LTD
#158 - 2013-05-09 02:23:58 UTC
-Do we have to see the green wave circling our ship at all times while the scanner overlay in visible?
-I can no longer center the camera on celestials by clicking on them in the map view. This makes getting the camera to work they way I want difficult.
-Cosmic signatures are showing up on the overlay at low signal strength. Intended?
-Can we get a list of everything on the overlay somewhere? I found myself panning the camera in every possible direction after entering a system to check if their were any sites. It would be easy to miss one though.
-Can we get the info from the system scanner to show up on the overlay too? Right now it just shows the original scan results
-Can the info from the overlay be put on the system map? This will kinda make the spread formation obsolete for exploration.
-Clicking and dragging anywhere close to the probes spheres will re-size the probes range. This combined with not being able to center the camera makes adjusting the view frustrating.
Nitrah
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#159 - 2013-05-09 02:41:39 UTC
I actually like the changes, although they are not without a need of some polish here and there.

Re: removing DSP & removing the ability to drop one probe
-> For core scanners and checking signature quantities, you don't need them anymore. The overlay shows you what signatures and anomalies are in the system without having to drop a probe. Furthermore, you can mouse over them to see their relative strength. It will take re-tabulation, but aside from finding extreme distance safes the DSP is completely obsolete.

Re: Needing to shift to move a single probe / alt to scale their position.
-> Mostly not needed anymore. Dragging the probe AU bubbles automatically repositions (similar to what alt does now) and adjusts the size of the scan. It automatically snaps to the appropriate increments. All you need to do is move the center probe around and click drag the bubbles to resize. Moving single probes for me was only to check to make sure I didn't miss one if the system was larger than 32AU across.

Things that need to be fixed however:
1) 100% hits don't stay at 100% hits once you rescan. Hopefully an oversight.
2) Adjusting the range bubbles don't update the range in the scanner interface until you hit analyze - makes it hard to get a frame of reference how your probes are set, particularly if you're combat scanning and you need to get it right the first time.
3) Custom probe layouts should be included. My standard layout was similar to the pinpoint layout, but not exactly. I shouldn't need to tweak it the same each time.
4) With #3 in mind, some way to have 8 probes would be nice. If it's a definite no, I'll adapt.

A nice to have:
5) Any chance to have an option to turn the scanning overlay on in the system map? Not to show where the signatures are of course, but to show them at infinite distance so you can drag your camera around to eyeball an approximate location without having to use planets as frame of references? Alternately, can you have a setting to optionally have the system map default to the orientation your space camera is facing?
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#160 - 2013-05-09 02:42:04 UTC  |  Edited by: HTC NecoSino
Oxigun wrote:
As a dedicated WH dweller, I use scanning on a daily basis and I rely on it for my ISK (and my life). Here are some comments on the new scanning mechanism which i have now tested for over an hour...

1) I'm sorry I don't see the reason why DSPs were removed. WH dwellers use them to establish signal strength. If that is no longer going to be the idea, please tell me why. I have trained my toons to maximum skill so I can make use of this ability. I don't see why it's been taken away.
2) You have your idea of what a "useful" probe formation is and I have mine. Please let me do my job the way I want to do it, not the way you want me to do it. I understand you want to help newbs by making it easier but I'm not a newb, I want to use my own formation, whether it's 4, 7 or 8 probes. Please let me launch my probes individually as I see fit.
3) On the subject of probe numbers, I would prefer to keep the 8 probes. I believe I have a useful formation that minimizes moving/resizing of probes to scan an entire system and benefits from a larger number of probes. Once again, don't take away something you gave me and I trained for just because you think players don't use it.
4) On the key assignments and visualization: Please don't make such difficult combinations to move probe formations/resize. The previous iteration was fine, Shift and Alt had a purpose, let's not make it more complicated. I guess I can live with having to hit shift to even see the probe handle but I don't see why I have to press a key anyway.
5) Please add back the columns as they were in the previous system. We like to sort things in our own special way, whether alphabetically or by strength. There are benefits to both.

IMHO, you're trying too hard to make this "easier" for new players and removing the freedom from established players. I'm sorry to say that it feels like you're dumbing down the game just because scanning required some skill and (very few) brain cells...

Thank you for your time,

Oxi
PS: Where is the probe timer? Do probes no longer expire?


This ^^^

A thousand times over... It feels like you are just catering to the lowest common denominator and forgetting that Eve is supposed to be a challenge. This just spoon feeds the scanning system and takes away one of the best tools a scanner has, the DSP. Why? So that we can launch 7 probes at once.. Big whoop..