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Personal Individual Temporary War Dec Shedding

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FoxFire Ayderan
#1 - 2013-05-09 01:49:33 UTC
Among one of the changes to War Decs that would be nice to see (in addition to making it get ever more expensive to maintain an unrequitted War Dec per week), would be the 'Personal Individual Temporary Shedding of a War Dec'.

I'm still relatively new to this game, and already upon inspecting of various characters in game and looking at their Employment History, I've seen some absurdly long lists of transfers in-and-out of NPC corps. Obviously these are people who are shedding their corp's War Dec for a period of time so that they can engage in some function that makes having a War Dec difficult or dangerous.

Now you can say "Well it's supposed to be dangerous and difficult when you have a War Dec!" Right. And that's why people are forced to move back and forth into NPC corps. They are still getting out of the War Dec whether you like it or not, just by hopping over temporarily to the NPC corp.

I too have felt the need/desire to temporarily exit my corp in order to briefly enjoy the relative safety of an NPC corp. Still I'd rather not have a stupidly long list of transfers back-and-forth from NPC corp to player corp in my Employment History.

So.... my idea would be for there to be a feature where you can STAY in your player corp but, as an individual, temporarily recieve an immunity from any War Dec that your corporation is under.

The way this could work is that for every day you are in your corp under War Dec, you recieve a day's worth of credit toward getting individual War Dec immunity. Or it could be 2 for 1, whatever. You can then employ this temporary immunity whenever you want (with a 24 hour cool-down if you've engaged in any War hostilities).

Perhaps also you have to use your credit all at once. So if you accumulate 2 weeks worth of individual War Dec immunity, and switch over to use it, but only use 1 day (to do some hauling), you lose the entire 2 weeks, and have to rebuild your credit to use your War Dec immunity again. This may or may not be necessary to prevent certain potenial abuses.

There could be other restrictions if needed as well. Like a one-time or daily payment to CONCORD, or a rule where no more than 50% of corp members can be on personal-hiatus from the war at any one time, etc... Hopefully these restrictions would not be needed.

I think this would make a lot more sense than having to jump out to an NPC corp temporarily, and a player doesn't have to lose access to their corporation during that time.

And if CCP does implement something like this, I think players should have the option of consolidating their Employment History, that would eliminate all NPC-corp transfers from the list where it's between two of the same player corp enlistments. Again that would only be an option for those who'd like to do that.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#2 - 2013-05-09 02:13:04 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
So.... my idea would be for there to be a feature where you can STAY in your player corp but, as an individual, temporarily recieve an immunity from any War Dec that your corporation is under.

The way this could work is that for every day you are in your corp under War Dec, you recieve a day's worth of credit toward getting individual War Dec immunity. Or it could be 2 for 1, whatever. You can then employ this temporary immunity whenever you want (with a 24 hour cool-down if you've engaged in any War hostilities).

Perhaps also you have to use your credit all at once. So if you accumulate 2 weeks worth of individual War Dec immunity, and switch over to use it, but only use 1 day (to do some hauling), you lose the entire 2 weeks, and have to rebuild your credit to use your War Dec immunity again. This may or may not be necessary to prevent certain potenial abuses.

There could be other restrictions if needed as well. Like a one-time or daily payment to CONCORD, or a rule where no more than 50% of corp members can be on personal-hiatus from the war at any one time, etc... Hopefully these restrictions would not be needed.

I think this would make a lot more sense than having to jump out to an NPC corp temporarily, and a player doesn't have to lose access to their corporation during that time.

EDIT: No personal attacks, please. - ISD Tyrozan

Your suggestion could be abused to hell with "out of war" logistics (both haulers and logi ships). Also it does not make any sense because one just cannot take a day off during a war and walk on a battlefield as observer or a tourist.
If you dont like war decs - leave your char in an NPC corp then you'll have no corp changes in history due to running from war decs. 11% tax comes as penalty.
Or just create an alt to do the hauling.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
FoxFire Ayderan
#3 - 2013-05-09 02:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Your suggestion could be abused to hell with "out of war" logistics (both haulers and logi ships). Also it does not make any sense because one just cannot take a day off during a war.
If you dont like war decs - leave your char in an NPC corp then you'll have no corp changes in history due to running from war decs. 11% tax comes as penalty.
Or just create an alt to do the hauling.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Now, rather than just dismissing this idea by claiming it will be "abused to hell", why don't you elaborate on what exactly it is you fear will happen, and we can see if there is a solution to your concern. That is unless you actually have an ulterior motive for disliking this idea.

What can in-corp haulrs and logi ships do, with corp members who have temporary individual immunity from the war dec, that they CAN'T do by temporarily moving to an NPC corp or using an NPC corp Alt?

How does an 11% tax penalty on mission rewards disuade hauler and logi ship operators from moving to an NPC corp? (Oh, maybe you are in a corp that likes to War Dec so you can harass PvE fitted high-sec mission-runners and you feel the 11% tax helps dissuade some mission-runners from moving into the NPC corp. Is THAT your true motivation?).

As to making sense, it makes JUST as much sense as paying off CONCORD to allow unproked attacks on others in High Security space. Again, if CCP wants, they can even include a personal payment to CONCORD for a player's renewed individual protection.
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
#4 - 2013-05-09 03:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rovinia
The Wardec system is, even if it gets abused often and needs a revision, an essential part of the Sandbox. You can't hide from your enemys by simply move to Highsec. I think it was intended to be the highest form of escalation of a conflict between two parties.

"Take a day off" from a war should not be possible. It would totaly destroy the whole purpose of this feature and make it redundant. A good corp will be able to deal with this threat, the bad ones will vanish... Playercorp-Darwinism if you want to call it like that. Stick together, fleet up against the enemy, gank him yourselfe. Or sit it out or start negotiations.

Eve is a dark and harsh universe. No easy mode. That's what most player like about it. And even if it's frustrating from time to time, it has it's purpose.

And yes, you can abandon your corp and join a Npc-corp when you get a wardec. Than you can do your missions (for a higher tax) with less risk. But i'm pretty sure your corpmates will find that not so cool... Blink If you don't care about that and you soloplay all the time anyways, just do so. But you will miss much of the things eve has to offer.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2013-05-09 05:25:38 UTC
So, if I have my alt wardec my corp but never actually engage, wouldn't that mean I'd just rack up more credits than I could ever possibly use? Or are they limited so you can only use them in specific wars?

Either way, there would no longer be any point in wardeccing null or WH groups, probably not lowseccers either, since it would be laughably easy for any of these people to rack up more credits than they could ever possibly use.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#6 - 2013-05-09 07:38:04 UTC
If anything needs changing, it's the ability to instantly drop corp during a war. If you drop during a war you should remain a valid target for 48 hours.

We don't need new broken mechanics that make war decs utterly pointless, ffs
FoxFire Ayderan
#7 - 2013-05-10 08:55:28 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
So, if I have my alt wardec my corp but never actually engage, wouldn't that mean I'd just rack up more credits than I could ever possibly use? Or are they limited so you can only use them in specific wars?

Either way, there would no longer be any point in wardeccing null or WH groups, probably not lowseccers either, since it would be laughably easy for any of these people to rack up more credits than they could ever possibly use.


There are likely solutions to any percieved problems with this mechanic.

As to your concerns, this is easily allieviated by imposing not only limits on how much time you could accumulate but also by making that time only effective for each individual War Dec.

Thus you could potentially be bowing out of one War Dec while still being subject to another simultaneous War Dec. Each would have seperate pools.

This would introduce some added complexity, so perhaps that might not be the easiest way to implement it, but even just having a limit on the amount of credit (which would extract you from all existing and new War Decs during that period) would be sufficient.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#8 - 2013-05-10 08:57:43 UTC
You're playing the wrong game to receive the Get Out of Jail Free card.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#9 - 2013-05-10 09:13:22 UTC
No. Absolutely not. This is almost as bad an idea as using rigs to re-allocate fitting slots on your ship.
FoxFire Ayderan
#10 - 2013-05-10 09:25:21 UTC
Rovinia wrote:
The Wardec system is, even if it gets abused often and needs a revision, an essential part of the Sandbox. You can't hide from your enemys by simply move to Highsec. I think it was intended to be the highest form of escalation of a conflict between two parties.

"Take a day off" from a war should not be possible. It would totaly destroy the whole purpose of this feature and make it redundant. A good corp will be able to deal with this threat, the bad ones will vanish... Playercorp-Darwinism if you want to call it like that. Stick together, fleet up against the enemy, gank him yourselfe. Or sit it out or start negotiations.

Eve is a dark and harsh universe. No easy mode. That's what most player like about it. And even if it's frustrating from time to time, it has it's purpose.

And yes, you can abandon your corp and join a Npc-corp when you get a wardec. Than you can do your missions (for a higher tax) with less risk. But i'm pretty sure your corpmates will find that not so cool... Blink If you don't care about that and you soloplay all the time anyways, just do so. But you will miss much of the things eve has to offer.



Blah blah Eve is dark and harsh. Yeah right, we've heard it all before. No it's not all dark and harsh. There is ACTUALLY real rule of law and thriving safe secure prosperous civilizations in parts of it. We call it Hi-Sec. With advanced police patrols ready to bring any law breakers to justice.

I get it. You LIKE PvP. But not everyone wants PvP all the time. Unrequitted wars against Hi-Sec corps is little more than griefing those who wish to avoid PvP yet still would like to socialize among friends in a player corporation. Some (perhaps even you) just can't handle REAL PvP against other PvPers or maybe they get their rocks off on griefing other players and would like unrestrained abilities to do that. But that's certainly not going to attract the widest audience of players to Eve that CCP would certainly like. It's important for such players to have relatively safe places to spend their $15 a month keeping the game alive and thriving for the PvP minded as well.

Should Eve ever be completely safe? No, that would take away some of its character. And so even being in an NPC corp in High-sec is not entirely safe. Suicide ganking is still a possibility. But as it stands, the War Dec system is faulty. It's absolutely being used by PvPers intent on griefing unprepared and unwilling PvEers in Hi-Sec. Still War Dec for conflict within Hi-Sec has its merits, particularly for mutual wars.

At any rate, I don't think any player corp should be immune from War Decs, but given that any player CAN just drop corp during a War Dec anyhow, then I think it is a perfectly fine idea to allow such players to accomplish the same thing (sitting out of a War Dec for a period of time on an individual basis) while still being able to remain in their player corp.

Eve should not cater JUST to the needs and desires of scum and villiany (mos eisley), there need to be better options for those who want to live in areas where not just any two-bit thug can pay off the cops to be allowed to go on a reign of terror against other citizens.
FoxFire Ayderan
#11 - 2013-05-10 09:49:41 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
You're playing the wrong game to receive the Get Out of Jail Free card.


And if CCP implents an idea like this (or other ideas to reign in War Decs against unwilling PvEers), if there not enough left in the game for YOU to enjoy, then might I suggest that you would clearly be in the wrong game.

Tell me, will you leave, if you were more greatly restricted against PvPing against PvEers? Is that what gets you hard for this game? Can't handle real PvPers? Low/Null sec PvP is just too difficult for you? If so, then perhaps this game isn't for you.

Frankly I really don't think CCP has any desire to corner the a-hole market. They can create a game that appeals to decent PvPers and to PvEers, without having to appeal to those who only want to PvP against PvEers. And frankly catering to those people will only server to drive away the PvEers, and then CCP will have lost both the PvEers and the a-holes who can only enjoy the game if they get PvP on the PvEers, as there will be no PvE players left for them to grief.

Now keep in mind I'm not even suggesting eliminating War Decs against unwilling corps altogether, simply creating opportunities and occasions for periods of immunity from such actions on an individual basis, while remaining in a player corp (instead of the currently available jumping over to an NPC corp). This would cut down on the mile long Employment History of characters who are frequently jumping back-and-forth into NPC corps to get a reprieve from War Decs so they can participate in various activities without undue harassment.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#12 - 2013-05-10 10:01:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
I think that instead of this idea that War Decs should be a mutually consensual mechanic in EVE. If both sides do not agree then the War Dec dies and this would prevent this "griefing" of Hi-Sec PVE Corps no?

Also, I think looking at your Employment History and wanting it "cleaner" is nearly as OCD as wanting to remove partially trained L1 skills that have never been used (and yes I have supported this idea cos it annoys the hell out of my OCD).

Just my personal thoughts but to the OP: Keep it civil and don't stoop to a wholly defensive\retaliatory stance when people troll\flame\down your idea, it's going to happen.

A well written idea and points for putting it out there just not a +1 from me.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#13 - 2013-05-10 10:26:38 UTC
They could add a contract type, let's call it non-aggression packt where both parties agree on a security deposit and a time frame and then both sides lock the deposit in the contract and the one side that shoots first loses the deposit. Should work on individual, corporation, alliance level and any combination between.

Would require a ticker for the overview though, to allow distinction from real war targets and other reds.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#14 - 2013-05-10 10:29:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
Blah blah Eve is dark and harsh. Yeah right, we've heard it all before. No it's not all dark and harsh. There is ACTUALLY real rule of law and thriving safe secure prosperous civilizations in parts of it. We call it Hi-Sec. With advanced police patrols ready to bring any law breakers to justice.

I get it. You LIKE PvP. But not everyone wants PvP all the time. Unrequitted wars against Hi-Sec corps is little more than griefing those who wish to avoid PvP yet still would like to socialize among friends in a player corporation. Some (perhaps even you) just can't handle REAL PvP against other PvPers or maybe they get their rocks off on griefing other players and would like unrestrained abilities to do that. But that's certainly not going to attract the widest audience of players to Eve that CCP would certainly like. It's important for such players to have relatively safe places to spend their $15 a month keeping the game alive and thriving for the PvP minded as well.

Should Eve ever be completely safe? No, that would take away some of its character. And so even being in an NPC corp in High-sec is not entirely safe. Suicide ganking is still a possibility. But as it stands, the War Dec system is faulty. It's absolutely being used by PvPers intent on griefing unprepared and unwilling PvEers in Hi-Sec. Still War Dec for conflict within Hi-Sec has its merits, particularly for mutual wars.

At any rate, I don't think any player corp should be immune from War Decs, but given that any player CAN just drop corp during a War Dec anyhow, then I think it is a perfectly fine idea to allow such players to accomplish the same thing (sitting out of a War Dec for a period of time on an individual basis) while still being able to remain in their player corp.

Eve should not cater JUST to the needs and desires of scum and villiany (mos eisley), there need to be better options for those who want to live in areas where not just any two-bit thug can pay off the cops to be allowed to go on a reign of terror against other citizens.


Wars against highsec corps is not griefing *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

The reason EVE is a success is precisely BECAUSE you're allowed to do these kinds of things, it's the ultimate sandbox and what you do actually has a meaningful effect on other players, unlike other MMOs. The constant hinting that EVE isn't being all that it can be because CCP allow people to cheat, lie and commit violence against unwilling victims is just so stupid and I'm sick of it constantly being repeated. These mechanics aren't holding EVE back, they're key to its success and longevity
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#15 - 2013-05-10 10:37:26 UTC
Also, do you not see the immense hypocrisy you're demonstrating throughout this thread? You're constantly asking that certain playstyles and restrictions be forced on PVPers (so they only interact in the way you want them to, with whom you want them to) while at the same time bemoaning how terrible it is that PVPers can force certain playstyles on poor babby PVErs.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#16 - 2013-05-10 10:52:31 UTC
Only starter corps should be protected from wardecs. Wardecs should follow individuals to the non-starter NPC corps.

This would solve your problem, which seems to be employment history

.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#17 - 2013-05-10 10:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Wardecs are fine as they are (well, they're not -- but not for the reasons you state), and all your idea does is break them.

If people don't want to be involved in decs, then they can stay in the NPC corp with all its restrictions (no POS, 11% tax, etc).
If people don't want to put up with the restrictions imposed by NPC corps, then they can join (or form) a corporation of their own.

Honestly, all the excuses of "we can't fight them" or "we're too young" or "we don't have the SP" or whatever else have been used and are now just cliche. Given one (1) month from starting, a pilot can have a very good portion of the requisite frigate skills to L4. Obviously, if you're taking a "mining and industry" approach to the game, you're probably looking more at 2 months -- but either way, you don't have to go beyond "frigates" for being able to fight. Hell, even noobships would be OK.

Anyway, threw this together for a rookie in some corp because he thought ships for pew were a waste of ISK (and is telling me this right after putting a 40m bounty on someone's head).

Punisher - lolcheap
3x small pulse
Meta0 MWD
DCU II + 2x upgraded nano plating

total cost is about 1.5 - 2 mil ISK. He would've had 20-25 of these little bastards for the same amount of ISK.

With his skills (at the time)
45 DPS, 3.7k EHP, and max speed of 1900 m/sec.


Yes, it's missing "important" things like a web or point, and would probably be better off with an AB instead of a MWD. Not to mention that by itself, it's really not going to be breaking anything's tank -- but it was only meant as an example of "no, seriously, you can cram this on there for cheap". a 10-man corp with cheap-ass frigates like this could definitely put some hurt on someone flying a cruiser/bc. BS might be tougher, but then again a few days of SP into gunnery and such...


after training for 3-5 days from dead new, a pilot will have all the certificates to fly the racial direct combat frigates (e.g. the punisher above). Taking every one of those skills plus Afterburners, Spaceship Command, [Racial] Frigate, and Propulsion Jamming to L4 will take 40 days. You can shave off 8 days by taking off the "bonus" skills to L4.

With those L4 skills (and 40d of training), the above punisher gets knocked down to an AB (but has the CPU/PG for a point), but is still pretty nice

DPS - 57.9
speed - 750 m/sec
tank - 4.4k

assuming a 10 man corp, ~580 DPS is a pretty good bit of damage coming from the LONG RANGE TURRETS. You'll definitely make any "neutral" logi run for cover, not to mention put a fair amount of hurt on anyone where you're able to get under their guns (or lock them down with a griffin or two)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#18 - 2013-05-10 11:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:


Now keep in mind I'm not even suggesting eliminating War Decs against unwilling corps altogether, simply creating opportunities and occasions for periods of immunity from such actions on an individual basis, while remaining in a player corp (instead of the currently available jumping over to an NPC corp). This would cut down on the mile long Employment History of characters who are frequently jumping back-and-forth into NPC corps to get a reprieve from War Decs so they can participate in various activities without undue harassment.



Sorry bud but the 'mile long Employment History' is a valuable part of Eve. It tells other players what type of player you are. What corp would want you, if they realized that as soon as they got decked, you would jump ship and run back *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal (i mean the NPC corp).

Can you not see how ridiculous a temporary get out of the war safety to go haul stuff is???? That's part of the point of a war. Disrupt your enemies supply lines.

Seriously, this is a terrible idea.... let it go.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#19 - 2013-05-10 11:51:05 UTC
Here's a better idea, let people who leave their corps during a war be valid targets until it's over. It's about time this kind of exploit gets removed.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
FoxFire Ayderan
#20 - 2013-05-11 08:45:32 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


Wars against highsec corps is not griefing *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

The reason EVE is a success is precisely BECAUSE you're allowed to do these kinds of things, it's the ultimate sandbox and what you do actually has a meaningful effect on other players, unlike other MMOs. The constant hinting that EVE isn't being all that it can be because CCP allow people to cheat, lie and commit violence against unwilling victims is just so stupid and I'm sick of it constantly being repeated. These mechanics aren't holding EVE back, they're key to its success and longevity
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


Wars against highsec corps is not griefing *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

The reason EVE is a success is precisely BECAUSE you're allowed to do these kinds of things, it's the ultimate sandbox and what you do actually has a meaningful effect on other players, unlike other MMOs. The constant hinting that EVE isn't being all that it can be because CCP allow people to cheat, lie and commit violence against unwilling victims is just so stupid and I'm sick of it constantly being repeated. These mechanics aren't holding EVE back, they're key to its success and longevity
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal



Now you can choose which of those apply to someone who can't seem to comprehend that CCP already has numerous means to provide a semi-safe environment for those who do not wish to engage in PvP, with associated harsh penalties against those who choose to engage in such anti-social behavior. CCP does in fact want to appeal to both the PvE and the PvPer. They clearly do not intend for Eve to be a PvP free-for-all paradise. Otherwise Hi-Sec would not exist, CONCORD would not exist, security status would not exist, and there would be no need for War Decs. And CCP would not have placed increasingly harsh restrictions and penalties over the years for attacking players in Hi-Sec. So tell us again how much of a success Eve has been due to allowing unfettered attacks on PvE players in Hi-Sec? Or choose the invective that best applies to someone who would make such an ignorant statement as yours.

The very fact that players can escape War Decs by going to an NPC corp is further evidence that "players like me" are MORE wanted by CCP than players like you who apparently don't like the idea that individual players can be immune from or escape non-mutual War Decs. Of course CCP recently made it impossible to completely shield your entire corporation from War Decs. All-in-all that's a good move, but it went too far, to the point of being a significant source of griefing of non-PvP interested players.

At any rate, again the only point *I* was making was that given that players can jump into an NPC corp to avoid or shed a War Dec (and CCP will abolutely not change that without risking a significant hit to revenue), then why not allow someone to stay in their player corp and earn temporary hiatuses from any War Dec they happen to be under on an individual character basis.

The only difference is that they can still easily communicate with their corp-mates and use the socialization and other tools that player corps have available, and they don't need to have mile long Employment History lists as they jump back-and-forth to take care of whatever needs they have that War Targets make difficult or excessively dangerous in what is supposed to be High Security space.

I seriously doubt such a mechanic would impact the enjoyment of any decent PvPers out there, while it would significantly enhance the enjoyment of PvEers. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
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