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Personal Individual Temporary War Dec Shedding

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FoxFire Ayderan
#21 - 2013-05-11 08:54:43 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:

Sorry bud but the 'mile long Employment History' is a valuable part of Eve. It tells other players what type of player you are. What corp would want you, if they realized that as soon as they got decked, you would jump ship and run back to your mom (i mean the NPC corp).

Can you not see how ridiculous a temporary get out of the war safety to go haul stuff is???? That's part of the point of a war. Disrupt your enemies supply lines.

Seriously, this is a terrible idea.... let it go.



What?

We are talking about PvE players in PvE Hi-Sec corps. These corps often suggest moving into an NPC corp for the duration of War Decs if their members do not wish to participate. No Low/Null sec PvP corp is getting applications from PvE players who have mile long Employment Histories due to jumping in and out of NPC corps. Such players would simply not be applying to PvP corps.

And for the PvPer who jumps into an NPC corp from the PvP player corp without permission, or under this new mechanic is seen to take an unauthorized hiatus from a War Dec, it's easy enough to kick that person out of the corporation or not re-admit them.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#22 - 2013-05-11 09:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


Wars against highsec corps is not griefing *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

The reason EVE is a success is precisely BECAUSE you're allowed to do these kinds of things, it's the ultimate sandbox and what you do actually has a meaningful effect on other players, unlike other MMOs. The constant hinting that EVE isn't being all that it can be because CCP allow people to cheat, lie and commit violence against unwilling victims is just so stupid and I'm sick of it constantly being repeated. These mechanics aren't holding EVE back, they're key to its success and longevity
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


Wars against highsec corps is not griefing *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

The reason EVE is a success is precisely BECAUSE you're allowed to do these kinds of things, it's the ultimate sandbox and what you do actually has a meaningful effect on other players, unlike other MMOs. The constant hinting that EVE isn't being all that it can be because CCP allow people to cheat, lie and commit violence against unwilling victims is just so stupid and I'm sick of it constantly being repeated. These mechanics aren't holding EVE back, they're key to its success and longevity
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal



Now you can choose which of those apply to someone who can't seem to comprehend that CCP already has numerous means to provide a semi-safe environment for those who do not wish to engage in PvP, with associated harsh penalties against those who choose to engage in such anti-social behavior. CCP does in fact want to appeal to both the PvE and the PvPer. They clearly do not intend for Eve to be a PvP free-for-all paradise. Otherwise Hi-Sec would not exist, CONCORD would not exist, security status would not exist, and there would be no need for War Decs. And CCP would not have placed increasingly harsh restrictions and penalties over the years for attacking players in Hi-Sec. So tell us again how much of a success Eve has been due to allowing unfettered attacks on PvE players in Hi-Sec? Or choose the invective that best applies to someone who would make such an ignorant statement as yours.

The very fact that players can escape War Decs by going to an NPC corp is further evidence that "players like me" are MORE wanted by CCP than players like you who apparently don't like the idea that individual players can be immune from or escape non-mutual War Decs. Of course CCP recently made it impossible to completely shield your entire corporation from War Decs. All-in-all that's a good move, but it went too far, to the point of being a significant source of griefing of non-PvP interested players.

At any rate, again the only point *I* was making was that given that players can jump into an NPC corp to avoid or shed a War Dec (and CCP will abolutely not change that without risking a significant hit to revenue), then why not allow someone to stay in their player corp and earn temporary hiatuses from any War Dec they happen to be under on an individual character basis.

The only difference is that they can still easily communicate with their corp-mates and use the socialization and other tools that player corps have available, and they don't need to have mile long Employment History lists as they jump back-and-forth to take care of whatever needs they have that War Targets make difficult or excessively dangerous in what is supposed to be High Security space.

I seriously doubt such a mechanic would impact the enjoyment of any decent PvPers out there, while it would significantly enhance the enjoyment of PvEers. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal




This proves that you have lost the argument, too many personal attacks, also if it's within the rules it's not griefing, ask any high sec care bear that has lost their mining barge to a gank. High sec is not and should never be no risk space.

Also I know what I would think of fellow corp members that abandon the corp when they are most needed during a war. They would not be permitted to join again, even if they are only miners. No-one wants to fly with feckless and unreliable people. You sir should be ashamed.



Also in all of human history, there has never been a war in which both sides mutually agreed to fight.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
FoxFire Ayderan
#23 - 2013-05-11 09:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:



This proves that you have lost the argument, too many personal attacks, also if it's within the rules it's not griefing, ask any high sec care bear that has lost their mining barge to a gank. High sec is not and should never be no risk space.

Also I know what I would think of fellow corp members that abandon the corp when they are most needed during a war. They would not be permitted to join again, even if they are only miners. No-one wants to fly with feckless and unreliable people. You sir should be ashamed.



Oh give me a break Little Dragon Khamez.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


What's with people who can't shoot down a decent idea with real arguments having to continually set up strawmen? Who the hell said "High sec should be no risk space"? Though even CCP agrees, and purposely designed Hi-Sec, to be significantly less risky space. Any character can always be suicide ganked.

And WOW, you just solved your own problem. Don't like a player who leaves to an NPC corp during a War Dec, GREAT good for you. Now you have the incredibly AMAZING power to not permit them to rejoin. Really, I'm serious CCP made that an option. Roll The same would apply if they took an in-corp hiatus from the War Dec without permission, except in that case, CCP implemented another amazing feature that allows you to kick out members from a corporation! I know, cutting edge stuff there.

Now... do you have any REAL arguments against this idea?
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#24 - 2013-05-11 10:39:42 UTC
Why even bother arguing against such a horrible idea? You're being obnoxiously rude and refusing to listen to the people bringing up points on why your idea is out of place.

Save the drones!
Madlof Chev
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2013-05-11 12:31:34 UTC
Nope.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#26 - 2013-05-11 12:37:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:



This proves that you have lost the argument, too many personal attacks, also if it's within the rules it's not griefing, ask any high sec care bear that has lost their mining barge to a gank. High sec is not and should never be no risk space.

Also I know what I would think of fellow corp members that abandon the corp when they are most needed during a war. They would not be permitted to join again, even if they are only miners. No-one wants to fly with feckless and unreliable people. You sir should be ashamed.



Oh give me a break Little Dragon Khamez.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


What's with people who can't shoot down a decent idea with real arguments having to continually set up strawmen? Who the hell said "High sec should be no risk space"? Though even CCP agrees, and purposely designed Hi-Sec, to be significantly less risky space. Any character can always be suicide ganked.

And WOW, you just solved your own problem. Don't like a player who leaves to an NPC corp during a War Dec, GREAT good for you. Now you have the incredibly AMAZING power to not permit them to rejoin. Really, I'm serious CCP made that an option. Roll The same would apply if they took an in-corp hiatus from the War Dec without permission, except in that case, CCP implemented another amazing feature that allows you to kick out members from a corporation! I know, cutting edge stuff there.

Now... do you have any REAL arguments against this idea?





All I see is someone who wants to cut and run whenever his corp gets a wardec, you strike me as the sort of person who wants the benefits of being in a corp without any of the downsides.

Just for the record I am not a pvp god, you wont find me on eve-kill or battleclinic, that's because I mostly mine and explore with this account and unlike you I am willing to stand by my corp mates and alliance bretheryn when they get a war dec.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#27 - 2013-05-11 12:58:00 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

All I see is someone who wants to cut and run whenever his corp gets a wardec, you strike me as the sort of person who wants the benefits of being in a corp without any of the downsides.

Just for the record I am not a pvp god, you wont find me on eve-kill or battleclinic, that's because I mostly mine and explore with this account and unlike you I am willing to stand by my corp mates and alliance bretheryn when they get a war dec.


Even if you're not a PvPer (don't like it, whatever) and your corp gets wardec'd, you never know what will happen when everyone gets together and stands their ground.

You might even get a kill.

Save the drones!
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#28 - 2013-05-11 13:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


Wars against highsec corps is not griefing *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

The reason EVE is a success is precisely BECAUSE you're allowed to do these kinds of things, it's the ultimate sandbox and what you do actually has a meaningful effect on other players, unlike other MMOs. The constant hinting that EVE isn't being all that it can be because CCP allow people to cheat, lie and commit violence against unwilling victims is just so stupid and I'm sick of it constantly being repeated. These mechanics aren't holding EVE back, they're key to its success and longevity
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


Wars against highsec corps is not griefing *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

The reason EVE is a success is precisely BECAUSE you're allowed to do these kinds of things, it's the ultimate sandbox and what you do actually has a meaningful effect on other players, unlike other MMOs. The constant hinting that EVE isn't being all that it can be because CCP allow people to cheat, lie and commit violence against unwilling victims is just so stupid and I'm sick of it constantly being repeated. These mechanics aren't holding EVE back, they're key to its success and longevity
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal



Now you can choose which of those apply to someone who can't seem to comprehend that CCP already has numerous means to provide a semi-safe environment for those who do not wish to engage in PvP, with associated harsh penalties against those who choose to engage in such anti-social behavior. CCP does in fact want to appeal to both the PvE and the PvPer. They clearly do not intend for Eve to be a PvP free-for-all paradise. Otherwise Hi-Sec would not exist, CONCORD would not exist, security status would not exist, and there would be no need for War Decs. And CCP would not have placed increasingly harsh restrictions and penalties over the years for attacking players in Hi-Sec. So tell us again how much of a success Eve has been due to allowing unfettered attacks on PvE players in Hi-Sec? Or choose the invective that best applies to someone who would make such an ignorant statement as yours.

The very fact that players can escape War Decs by going to an NPC corp is further evidence that "players like me" are MORE wanted by CCP than players like you who apparently don't like the idea that individual players can be immune from or escape non-mutual War Decs. Of course CCP recently made it impossible to completely shield your entire corporation from War Decs. All-in-all that's a good move, but it went too far, to the point of being a significant source of griefing of non-PvP interested players.

At any rate, again the only point *I* was making was that given that players can jump into an NPC corp to avoid or shed a War Dec (and CCP will abolutely not change that without risking a significant hit to revenue), then why not allow someone to stay in their player corp and earn temporary hiatuses from any War Dec they happen to be under on an individual character basis.

The only difference is that they can still easily communicate with their corp-mates and use the socialization and other tools that player corps have available, and they don't need to have mile long Employment History lists as they jump back-and-forth to take care of whatever needs they have that War Targets make difficult or excessively dangerous in what is supposed to be High Security space.

I seriously doubt such a mechanic would impact the enjoyment of any decent PvPers out there, while it would significantly enhance the enjoyment of PvEers. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal



*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

it's probably not healthy to get this angry at a game.

Also, a lot of that post seems to revolve around some personal made up idea of a "real" PVPer you have. You seem to think that anyone who does PVP in a way you don't like (i.e. against you and other people who make themselves into such juicy, soft targets) is somehow not partaking in "real" or ~honourable~ PVP. That sucks for you, but the reality is simple: pvp is pvp. It's no more "real" to attack a fleet of capitals who are looking for a fight than it is to attack a miningbarge. You can disagree all you want, but placing mechanical restrictions on the PVP in the game to match some idiotic subjective "this is valid, honourable pvp" ideal is stupid. Really stupid. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#29 - 2013-05-11 14:11:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
ExAstra wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

All I see is someone who wants to cut and run whenever his corp gets a wardec, you strike me as the sort of person who wants the benefits of being in a corp without any of the downsides.

Just for the record I am not a pvp god, you wont find me on eve-kill or battleclinic, that's because I mostly mine and explore with this account and unlike you I am willing to stand by my corp mates and alliance bretheryn when they get a war dec.


Even if you're not a PvPer (don't like it, whatever) and your corp gets wardec'd, you never know what will happen when everyone gets together and stands their ground.

You might even get a kill.


I used to do plenty of pvp on my old account that I biomassed in the wake of the jita riots, but came back to eve as it was still better than anything else ou there, so on this account I thought I would try the things that didn't interest me before like industry, research, exploration and trade. It's been fun. During combat ops I normally fly a cloaky and scout for the corp and provide intel.

It helps the fleet get kills despite not being in the kill mails myself and i am happy with that.

Congrats on the kill though.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#30 - 2013-05-11 15:25:22 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

All I see is someone who wants to cut and run whenever his corp gets a wardec, you strike me as the sort of person who wants the benefits of being in a corp without any of the downsides.

Just for the record I am not a pvp god, you wont find me on eve-kill or battleclinic, that's because I mostly mine and explore with this account and unlike you I am willing to stand by my corp mates and alliance bretheryn when they get a war dec.


Even if you're not a PvPer (don't like it, whatever) and your corp gets wardec'd, you never know what will happen when everyone gets together and stands their ground.

You might even get a kill.


I used to do plenty of pvp on my old account that I biomassed in the wake of the jita riots, but came back to eve as it was still better than anything else ou there, so on this account I thought I would try the things that didn't interest me before like industry, research, exploration and trade. It's been fun. During combat ops I normally fly a cloaky and scout for the corp and provide intel.

It helps the fleet get kills despite not being in the kill mails myself and i am happy with that.

Congrats on the kill though.

Haha, the kill was two years ago, but it was a fun fight. There was a Vindicator, Hyperion (pilot also came back out in a Megathron after we killed him), an Abaddon, Apocalypse, 2 Oneiros, and a Blackbird.

We were mainly a mission running corp at the time, just getting ready to set foot into the world of PvP when we got War Dec'd. After several unpleasant losses, that happened.

Save the drones!
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
#31 - 2013-05-11 16:07:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:

... is further evidence that "players like me" are MORE wanted by CCP than players like you who apparently don't like the idea that individual players can be immune from or escape non-mutual War Decs.


Yeah, CCP likes you most, i'm sure about this... Lol

FoxFire Ayderan wrote:

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


*Snip* Please don't feed the trolls. ISD Ezwal

Your posts are rude, you don't argue anymore and attack people personaly. Thats just trolling, nothing more. And YOU try to force YOUR playstile to other players which were happy with the game for the last 10 years.

If you don't like it, leave it. But wait, i forgott that ccp likes players like you more than me, so it seems to be my turn to unsub, right? Because FoxFire wants to play HIS game he recently joined Blink
FoxFire Ayderan
#32 - 2013-05-12 08:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: FoxFire Ayderan
ExAstra wrote:
Why even bother arguing against such a horrible idea? You're being obnoxiously rude and refusing to listen to the people bringing up points on why your idea is out of place.


Really? I haven't seen a single point that legitimately makes this a bad idea.

About the only decent counter was that players in Corps with War Dec shouldn't be allowed to shed the War Dec by jumping to an NPC corp (however that would seriously tick off players who at the very least rely on that.)

So, again given that players can jump to an NPC corp to avoid a War Dec, then I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to achieve the same effect but while remaining in their player corp.
FoxFire Ayderan
#33 - 2013-05-12 08:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


All I see is someone who wants to cut and run whenever his corp gets a wardec, you strike me as the sort of person who wants the benefits of being in a corp without any of the downsides.

Just for the record I am not a pvp god, you wont find me on eve-kill or battleclinic, that's because I mostly mine and explore with this account and unlike you I am willing to stand by my corp mates and alliance bretheryn when they get a war dec.



So the answer is 'no' then, you have no decent counters against this idea.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
I've been in 1 (one) player corp ever, which I am stil in, and we've been under constant War Dec,

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal .

In fact I've yet to have a single encounter with any War Targets at all. I'm far more cagey than that. And I'm not one to be caught unaware. In fact, I actually ENJOY eluding these griefers.

However, I see a lot of far less cautious players who are simply trying to enjoy the non PvP aspects of the game, who are becoming innocent victims of a mechanic that's given puerile griefiers the upperhand. And of course, even I would like more relaxed atmosphere from time-to-time, where I don't have to look over my shoulder every second I'm in game and maybe even risk an Auto-pilot through Hi-Sec.
FoxFire Ayderan
#34 - 2013-05-12 09:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Rovinia wrote:


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Your posts are rude, you don't argue anymore and attack people personaly. Thats just trolling, nothing more. And YOU try to force YOUR playstile to other players which were happy with the game for the last 10 years.

If you don't like it, leave it. But wait, i forgott that ccp likes players like you more than me, so it seems to be my turn to unsub, right? Because FoxFire wants to play HIS game he recently joined Blink


Last 10 years? You don't even know what you're talking about. I've been in the game for little more than a year and even I know that Hi-Sec player corps could virtually immunize their entire corporation from War Decs permanently.

And despite the recent changes which prevent such permanent immunization from War Decs, I do indeed believe CCP more values their PvP and their PvE players than they do their PvP on PvE players. If and when CCP recognizes the new problem created which empowers those who simply want to grief Hi-Sec PvE player corps, then I suspect they will be making additional changes to the War Dec mechanic. And they are almost certainly going to be changes you won't like.

Oh, and again with the irony, complaining about 'rude' posts. Complaints coming from those who are here defending their ability to attack players who don't desire and have no experience in PvP who are simply trying to enjoy the PvE game with friends in the areas of space which are supposed to be significantly less risky to be in.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#35 - 2013-05-12 09:18:09 UTC
I'm sure even ISDs are currently laying back and enjoying the tears rolling.... this thread is awesome!
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#36 - 2013-05-16 12:16:21 UTC
Seriously OP, you have to let this go....

CCP are never going to even consider a get out of wardec free card. (yes I know the mechanic is available to drop corp to NPC, but you then have the drawback of an extended employment history)

Anyway, CCP are NEVER going to consider this.... How do you think it even makes sense? you're at war, but you want to be immune so you can haul supplies to the front line.... or drop when a war target is attacking you... or switch to 'protected mode' to flee a station you are trapped in.... Its WAR Damnit, not supposed to be safe.

Sheesh... Man-Up!

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#37 - 2013-05-16 12:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
Why even bother arguing against such a horrible idea? You're being obnoxiously rude and refusing to listen to the people bringing up points on why your idea is out of place.


Really? I haven't seen a single point that legitimately makes this a bad idea.

About the only decent counter was that players in Corps with War Dec shouldn't be allowed to shed the War Dec by jumping to an NPC corp (however that would seriously tick off players who at the very least rely on that.)

So, again given that players can jump to an NPC corp to avoid a War Dec, then I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to achieve the same effect but while remaining in their player corp.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Npc corps have penalties, whicg you've obviously been to ignorant to find out, this game doesn't work by "I want to be able to do everything and have nothing stop me" which is carried out by in game mechanics and other players. Just because players rely on it makes it a bad idea to remove it, if you would take a minute to shed your wall of impenetrable ignorance you would realize that those are called exploits.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#38 - 2013-05-16 20:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I'm sure even ISDs are currently laying back and enjoying the tears rolling....
I did, for a while.Twisted

But now the time has come to step in because a thread can only sustain so many rule breaking posts before utterly going down the gutter.

Nearly 30 times I removed personal attacks in posts in this thread by replacing it with *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
I could have legitimately removed all those post for breaking the forum rules. I didn't. I removed some though (and those that quoted them) as they were not salvageable.

But please consider this a stern warning: Keep it civil people!


2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Grathado Hemanseh
Surreptitious Spider
#39 - 2013-07-11 17:16:15 UTC
They should add an option for you to pay off concord to drop the wardec, lets face it people are greedy. Most of the time thats why people wardec other people. concord would not be any different, make it an isk war, as for the people defending the ward dec, if you want pvp, man up and fight some other pvpers what i see is people wardecing people that don't want fight most of the time. and each time some one flips it it becomes 2 times more, like the war dec would cost like 100m the scond time and 200m the 3rd time, also get rid of the clone skill point thing, imo that is the dumbest mechanic to this game, loss when you die is already huge. they need to make it harder for ****** little pvp corps to harrase people that are not interested.
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