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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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Meghel
SilfMeg Mining and Transportation Co
#681 - 2013-05-08 08:27:24 UTC
Here are my 5 cents :)

Rokh:
The Rokh is pretty good as it is.
The cheaper price would help it.
The -1% resist/level is unfortunately but should not be a Rokh-Breaker.

Perhaps you can remove a few of the missiles slots.
It has 4 missile slots but I know of no-one who uses missiles on a Rokh.


Raven:
I like what I see here, together with the Cruise Missile Changes.

The extra speed, better agility, faster align time and smaller signature radius are all welcome.

The only thing I would comment on is the signature radius; it could even be smaller.
It is still quite large.
Compared to the Tempest (360) the Minmatar Attack BS, the 420 of the Raven is still quite large.
Perhaps a small reduction to 400.

The Powergrid and CPU boosts are good as well.
The extra mid-slot is great to add additional tank, Electronic Warfare or Capacitor Booster.


Scorpion:

While the change is pretty good, it does not actually do much for the Scorpion.
It is still an Electronic Warfare-only ship and in this it is reasonable.
Reasonable, but not good.

As its is almost completely useless besides it Electronic Warfare roll (no Weapon Bonusses, no Resist Bonusses).
It is slow and fragile.

The Electronic Warfare roll is also suffering from the low level of target strength.
A higher target jamming strength would be welcome.

It has the same Target Jammer Strength as a blackbird (15%/level) while, being a battleship, it should have stronger Jammer Strength.

For example 20%/level.
This would make it better then the blackbird in fleet operations.

But since the ship is still large, lumbering and fragile (for a BS) it would not be overpowered.


or (and this is a BIG thing


Renove the Electronic Warfare completely from the Rokh and give the Caldari their second Attack Battleship.
Right now, they have 1 Attack and 1 Combat BS.

The Attack BS is the raven.
The Combat BS is the Rokh.

The Caldari could use a dedicated Brawler for blasters.
A ship with small signature (and the Rokh and Raven do not really qualify).
Capable of bringing close range dps on the enemy in PVP and PVE.

While the Blaster-Rokh is efficient, it is slow and unwieldy.
The Raven is better but fits only missiles.


Scorpion The New Blaster Version

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
5% bonus Hybrid Weapons Damage
10% bonus to Optimal Range of Hybrid Weapons

Slot layout: 7H, 7M, 5L; 7 turrets , 2 launchers
Fittings: 12000 PWG, 750 CPU

Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 5500 / 5000
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1087s / 5.06

Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .116 / 98400000 / 14.66s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 360

Oh well, just my 5 cents :)

Meghel
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#682 - 2013-05-08 08:28:39 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
...oh CCP, We're so terrible, the ship is worthless, its ability to project 1000 dps out to stupid ranges simply isn't enough, it can't hit anything with its CALDARI NAVY CRUISE MISSILES.

people... the raven is FINE, if anything its superior to the typhoon which CANNOT MATCH ITS DPS AND TANK AT THE SAME TIME.

I'm happy enough to provide more screenshots if people are interested.
I liked the price... 43.9M Isk. Blink





heheh yeah, the EFT files "add" new ship profiles to the layout, which can't source prices from eve because they don't exist ^^

some more fun facts...

the typhoon has significant difficulty fitting a full rack of torpedo launchers and a pair of 1600mm plates

the typhoon with 2 1600mm plates is slower than the raven

the typhoon with a single 1600mm plate is vastly outtanked by the raven

the typhoon can, assuming it wishes to tank, only manage 3 ballistic control systems to the raven's four. this is compensated for by its heavy drone deployment, however the raven still out ranges the typhoons torpedoes by 10 kilometres. remember when i mentioned it was faster? :D

the typhoon, in terms of raw damage, in torpedo range, has the advantage. however, the raven's frankly absurd fitting ability gives it a significant edge when it comes to fitting tank, dps mods and, should it so please, a heavy neut in its highs for support.


Your Raven fit sucks bro, where the utility? Other than the Neut 0, um you speak of maintaining range on the Phoon, how the FUK do you plan on doing that with your fit? 1m18s cap go blow yourself. Shyte fit because of only tank, only gank, 0 utility. oh enjoy the Typhoon hiting you for full damage with Torps because of your signature radius, oh yeah what will you do if its a shield Phoon, its gonna be clinging to your ass like shyte to a nappy. Oh yeah and a Shield Phoon HAS MORE DAMAGE, your a fool mate.



ah, the joyous discourse of the enternally enraged.

I'll start with your last point here


a shield typhoon under the new stats...

http://i.imgur.com/WmvZDmn.jpg

why, yes... oh my... it does have higher damage doesn't it? and it is faster... my my my...

oh wait... its got less tank than a battle cruiser and... can't actually fit that layout... to the point that you need to remove those 3 drone damage mods to actually reach the 1% over mark

this is what i'm talking about folks, CHECK THE NUMBERS. look at the stats. don't just froth and rage because the typhoon looks better on paper. I can accept that it certainly does look on paper, it will most certainly apply its damage better but its frankly absurd levels of poor fitting hamper it in ridiculous and cartoonish ways.

but connall? what about an armour fit! surely that must be better!

http://imgur.com/MG5FRpg

why now this is a lot better, a good solid 1200 dps with lots of target support, a 100k EHP tank and all the trimmings! the raven couldn't possibly match the typhoon in this area!

http://imgur.com/YKP4wwa

huh.... so this MASSIVE IMBALLANCE requiring the raven to need a 7th turret comes down to 40 dps?

the typhoon is better at this role, i'm not going to deny this in any way shape or form. its better damage application combined with its drones make it a stronger ship under 20km... but thats it isn't it?

the raven is faster, it has more range, its missiles will have less delay in impact thats to the range bonus being speed based. the typhoon's missiles are inferior to the ravens, where the typhoon gets its advantage is once its drones come into effect, that's the way of things at this stage and its something i've got no problems with.

and hey, at the end of the day we're only going 200-300 less dps with a CRUISE raven let alone a torp raven.


I'll say it again, check the numbers, the raven isn't terrible

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#683 - 2013-05-08 08:46:13 UTC
Conall.

To answer shortly to your wall of text. we asked for the 7 launcher yes, but we also asked for a cruise dps tone down in return. I btw asked if maybe the phoon could have the range bonus, because it is much better suited to that ship atm.

There is no need for you to enrage
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#684 - 2013-05-08 08:48:34 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
...oh CCP, We're so terrible, the ship is worthless, its ability to project 1000 dps out to stupid ranges simply isn't enough, it can't hit anything with its CALDARI NAVY CRUISE MISSILES.

people... the raven is FINE, if anything its superior to the typhoon which CANNOT MATCH ITS DPS AND TANK AT THE SAME TIME.

I'm happy enough to provide more screenshots if people are interested.
I liked the price... 43.9M Isk. Blink





heheh yeah, the EFT files "add" new ship profiles to the layout, which can't source prices from eve because they don't exist ^^

some more fun facts...

the typhoon has significant difficulty fitting a full rack of torpedo launchers and a pair of 1600mm plates

the typhoon with 2 1600mm plates is slower than the raven

the typhoon with a single 1600mm plate is vastly outtanked by the raven

the typhoon can, assuming it wishes to tank, only manage 3 ballistic control systems to the raven's four. this is compensated for by its heavy drone deployment, however the raven still out ranges the typhoons torpedoes by 10 kilometres. remember when i mentioned it was faster? :D

the typhoon, in terms of raw damage, in torpedo range, has the advantage. however, the raven's frankly absurd fitting ability gives it a significant edge when it comes to fitting tank, dps mods and, should it so please, a heavy neut in its highs for support.


Your Raven fit sucks bro, where the utility? Other than the Neut 0, um you speak of maintaining range on the Phoon, how the FUK do you plan on doing that with your fit? 1m18s cap go blow yourself. Shyte fit because of only tank, only gank, 0 utility. oh enjoy the Typhoon hiting you for full damage with Torps because of your signature radius, oh yeah what will you do if its a shield Phoon, its gonna be clinging to your ass like shyte to a nappy. Oh yeah and a Shield Phoon HAS MORE DAMAGE, your a fool mate.



ah, the joyous discourse of the enternally enraged.

I'll start with your last point here


a shield typhoon under the new stats...

http://i.imgur.com/WmvZDmn.jpg

why, yes... oh my... it does have higher damage doesn't it? and it is faster... my my my...

oh wait... its got less tank than a battle cruiser and... can't actually fit that layout... to the point that you need to remove those 3 drone damage mods to actually reach the 1% over mark

this is what i'm talking about folks, CHECK THE NUMBERS. look at the stats. don't just froth and rage because the typhoon looks better on paper. I can accept that it certainly does look on paper, it will most certainly apply its damage better but its frankly absurd levels of poor fitting hamper it in ridiculous and cartoonish ways.

but connall? what about an armour fit! surely that must be better!

http://imgur.com/MG5FRpg

why now this is a lot better, a good solid 1200 dps with lots of target support, a 100k EHP tank and all the trimmings! the raven couldn't possibly match the typhoon in this area!

http://imgur.com/YKP4wwa

huh.... so this MASSIVE IMBALLANCE requiring the raven to need a 7th turret comes down to 40 dps?

the typhoon is better at this role, i'm not going to deny this in any way shape or form. its better damage application combined with its drones make it a stronger ship under 20km... but thats it isn't it?

the raven is faster, it has more range, its missiles will have less delay in impact thats to the range bonus being speed based. the typhoon's missiles are inferior to the ravens, where the typhoon gets its advantage is once its drones come into effect, that's the way of things at this stage and its something i've got no problems with.

and hey, at the end of the day we're only going 200-300 less dps with a CRUISE raven let alone a torp raven.


I'll say it again, check the numbers, the raven isn't terrible


You do realize a Torpedo Raven suks the sweat off a deadmans balls.....

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#685 - 2013-05-08 08:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
hardly, my issue is that we're being handed a strong a powerful battleship line yet people are bitching because they're quite simply unwilling to look beyond the ends of their noses.

the rokh, is fine

the raven, is fine

and the scorpion is STILL the only Ewar battleship in existence, an Ewar battleship which is now even better at its job after these changes thanks to buffed low slots and the single biggest ECM range bonus available.

we quite simply have nothing to worry about relative to any of the other races, our missile platform can hit out to 70km before the next missile is launch, our gun battleship stands dependable and stalwart in the face of its peers and remains an excellent member of fleet shield doctrine and on top of this, its even possible that raven doctrines might even work with these changes.

721 dps from navy cruise missiles... let that sink in. these missiles out damage any other long range weapon platform in the subcap range. on top of that with these new changes? cruise missiles on a raven travel at 10.5km/sec. the "dps" loss inherent in missiles taking too long to reach targets is now essentially meaningless under 70km.

we're being handed gold yet complaining that it isn't platinum

Quote:
You do realize a Torpedo Raven suks the sweat off a deadmans balls.....


ah, nice to see that you're concise and erudite opinions can adapt magnificently to the situation upon having bullshit called on :P

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#686 - 2013-05-08 09:02:31 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
You do realize a Torpedo Raven suks the sweat off a deadmans balls.....


That is surprisingly disgusting and I have yet to determine if that was supposed to be a good thing or not. Shocked

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#687 - 2013-05-08 09:15:06 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
hardly, my issue is that we're being handed a strong a powerful battleship line yet people are bitching because they're quite simply unwilling to look beyond the ends of their noses.

the rokh, is fine

the raven, is fine

and the scorpion is STILL the only Ewar battleship in existence, an Ewar battleship which is now even better at its job after these changes thanks to buffed low slots and the single biggest ECM range bonus available.

we quite simply have nothing to worry about relative to any of the other races, our missile platform can hit out to 70km before the next missile is launch, our gun battleship stands dependable and stalwart in the face of its peers and remains an excellent member of fleet shield doctrine and on top of this, its even possible that raven doctrines might even work with these changes.

721 dps from navy cruise missiles... let that sink in. these missiles out damage any other long range weapon platform in the subcap range. on top of that with these new changes? cruise missiles on a raven travel at 10.5km/sec. the "dps" loss inherent in missiles taking too long to reach targets is now essentially meaningless under 70km.

we're being handed gold yet complaining that it isn't platinum

Quote:
You do realize a Torpedo Raven suks the sweat off a deadmans balls.....


ah, nice to see that you're concise and erudite opinions can adapt magnificently to the situation upon having bullshit called on :P



Typhoon: Rage Torpedos with 2 webs and a target painter, applies full DPS. Does not sacrifice tank.

Raven: Rage Torpedos with 2 webs and a target painter, does not apply full DPS. No longer has a viable tank.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#688 - 2013-05-08 09:38:27 UTC
Quote:
Typhoon: Rage Torpedos with 2 webs and a target painter, applies full DPS. Does not sacrifice tank.

Raven: Rage Torpedos with 2 webs and a target painter, does not apply full DPS. No longer has a viable tank.


how wonderfully Bill O Reilly of you.

"the raven is completely terrible in every way because it can't tank as well as a typhoon if it only uses 3 of its 7 slots for tank!"

would you like to educate us on how the drake is completely worthless in a blaster brawl because it doesn't do as much dps?

as i said earlier, and feel free to check, the typhoon IS a better torpedo boat than the raven, but only in the same way that a megathron is a better blaster boat than a rokh. under 5km? megathron is king. but over 13? can't stop the rokh

the typhoon most certainly gets more bang for its buck from its torpedoes, that's the intention. but move up the scale, the torpedo typhoon's ability to apply damage plummets after 20km, the raven however? it gets to keep applying damage on targets until the 30 kilometer mark, shall we factor in "javelin" torps as well? where the raven can now punt out to 45km?

see this is the point i'm trying to make, the raven isn't outclassd by the typhoon. its certainly weaker in some areas: its damage is less effective against smaller targets, it doesn't have as much raw dps (at least for torpedo vs torpedo, it wins cruise vs cruise) and it doesn't have as much utility in the mids.

in compensation however? its missiles are faster, so is less likely to loose damage due to "missed" vollys, its got a massive range advantage, hitting out beyond longpoint range with its torpedoes, the ship its self is faster than the typhoon thanks to being a shield tanker and if its willing to move its support tasks over to a back up ship like an arazu or a huginn? it rushes ahead in applied damage.

its just like the rokh, the raven is a fleet ship, the typhoon is a small gang ship.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#689 - 2013-05-08 09:49:03 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
hardly, my issue is that we're being handed a strong a powerful battleship line yet people are bitching because they're quite simply unwilling to look beyond the ends of their noses.

the rokh, is fine

the raven, is fine

and the scorpion is STILL the only Ewar battleship in existence, an Ewar battleship which is now even better at its job after these changes thanks to buffed low slots and the single biggest ECM range bonus available.

we quite simply have nothing to worry about relative to any of the other races, our missile platform can hit out to 70km before the next missile is launch, our gun battleship stands dependable and stalwart in the face of its peers and remains an excellent member of fleet shield doctrine and on top of this, its even possible that raven doctrines might even work with these changes.

721 dps from navy cruise missiles... let that sink in. these missiles out damage any other long range weapon platform in the subcap range. on top of that with these new changes? cruise missiles on a raven travel at 10.5km/sec. the "dps" loss inherent in missiles taking too long to reach targets is now essentially meaningless under 70km.

we're being handed gold yet complaining that it isn't platinum

Quote:
You do realize a Torpedo Raven suks the sweat off a deadmans balls.....


ah, nice to see that you're concise and erudite opinions can adapt magnificently to the situation upon having bullshit called on :P

you sir are totally clueless

scorpion is the only ewar bs.... oh yeah at it is a crap, i wish it wasnt an ewar ship,cause every argue is this : "its the only ewar bs so it is fine" what a bulls...

rokh nerfed it is only good in huge rokh only rr fleets,nowhere else, and it isnt that great as you think, it has huge limitations, the only good thing is has its tank and that it can shoot up to 100-130km

raven isnt good it is too slow/slughish and or has weak tank for a battleship and the typhoon is just better
and eft dps only doesnt make a ship good
5+second delay is huge nomatter how you put it , quess why rr shield is favoured over rr armor,yup that delay in repping

so please dont tell me these ships are not just okay but great,cause that is completly a lie
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#690 - 2013-05-08 09:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Connall Tara wrote:
Quote:
Typhoon: Rage Torpedos with 2 webs and a target painter, applies full DPS. Does not sacrifice tank.

Raven: Rage Torpedos with 2 webs and a target painter, does not apply full DPS. No longer has a viable tank.


how wonderfully Bill O Reilly of you.

"the raven is completely terrible in every way because it can't tank as well as a typhoon if it only uses 3 of its 7 slots for tank!"

would you like to educate us on how the drake is completely worthless in a blaster brawl because it doesn't do as much dps?

as i said earlier, and feel free to check, the typhoon IS a better torpedo boat than the raven, but only in the same way that a megathron is a better blaster boat than a rokh. under 5km? megathron is king. but over 13? can't stop the rokh

the typhoon most certainly gets more bang for its buck from its torpedoes, that's the intention. but move up the scale, the torpedo typhoon's ability to apply damage plummets after 20km, the raven however? it gets to keep applying damage on targets until the 30 kilometer mark, shall we factor in "javelin" torps as well? where the raven can now punt out to 45km?

see this is the point i'm trying to make, the raven isn't outclassd by the typhoon. its certainly weaker in some areas: its damage is less effective against smaller targets, it doesn't have as much raw dps (at least for torpedo vs torpedo, it wins cruise vs cruise) and it doesn't have as much utility in the mids.

in compensation however? its missiles are faster, so is less likely to loose damage due to "missed" vollys, its got a massive range advantage, hitting out beyond longpoint range with its torpedoes, the ship its self is faster than the typhoon thanks to being a shield tanker and if its willing to move its support tasks over to a back up ship like an arazu or a huginn? it rushes ahead in applied damage.

its just like the rokh, the raven is a fleet ship, the typhoon is a small gang ship.

You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything

do you realy think the rokh is good blaster boat ? :O megathron is just superior even at 13km+

20 to 30km for torp range isnt a huge improvement i dont get why 30km range is much better than 20 for torps,you didnt explained it at all ,so i cant see whats your point ,the typhoon is better torp boat thats for sure,that the extra 10km to be usefull you need to be able to keep that range ,and the raven and usually battleships cant, much easier to go to 0 and web the target

I cant see how raven wins cruise ,oh it shield tanks so it must be fine.... nope thats not how things work, btw typhoon can use support ships too , nothing says it cant , it also can shield tank ,nothing says it cant, and it will be faster smaller with more drones and better applied dps it also locks faster for 10-15k less ehp that isnt a huge loss at all for the extra benefits, and as others said there is no need to have optimal over 150km especially with missiles the extra range raven has is nearly pointless
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#691 - 2013-05-08 10:05:10 UTC
a CCP rise alt? well damn i'm not receiving a paycheck. I'd better go shout at ccp soundwave accordingly shouldn't I?

curious how the discussion is shifting from actually rebutting my opinions and now attacking me eh? :P


firstly, scorpion: I attest the scorpion is good NOT because its the only Ewar battleship in existence, but that its a 100k EHP jaming platform using ECM modules whicn can jam out to 98 kilometres unaided. THAT is why its a good ship, not because its the only jamming platform available.

second, the rokh most certainly is at its best in an RR fleet. its bonuses attest to that the same way an abaddon is at its best in an RR fleet. so is the abaddon a worthless battleship? its suffered the same nerf as the rokh. i'm curious as to why the standard appears to be variable depending on who you're asking and when you happen to be asking. in turn, as a blaster rokh enthusiast i can attest that the rokh most certainly isn't useless anywhere else.

but seeing as the trend now appears to be attacking me accompanied by vague hand waves as to why i'm wrong that doesn't mean much does it ;)

as for the raven being too slow/sluggish and (or?) having too weak a tank for a battleship i'm curious how the typhoon, a battleship which is both SLOWER and harder to tank is "just better"?

feel free to continue however, this is amusing me to no end this morning :D

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#692 - 2013-05-08 10:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
"firstly, scorpion: I attest the scorpion is good NOT because its the only Ewar battleship in existence, but that its a 100k EHP jaming platform using ECM modules whicn can jam out to 98 kilometres unaided. THAT is why its a good ship, not because its the only jamming platform available."
yeah and it has 6-7 RACIAL jammers with 7.8 jamm strength + no dmg , you could argue that it is good , but i cant see why should we use this ship over anohter one , i bet even unbonused dampeners would be much more usefull or just another dps or logi ship
oh and what do you do if enemy fleet isnt consist of your jammer racial ships? yep you km whore only


bottom line: we will see who is right after the expansion, that the raven/scorp will be used or not
I'm pretty sure nothing will change from current ccp's proposal

And if for some miracle raven and scorp wont be used , could you do us a favour and delete your accounts,before that make a topic that you were wrong and appologize
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#693 - 2013-05-08 10:31:53 UTC
query... are you telling me that you, personally, believe that racial jammers are useless? just looking for some clarification because, after all i'm completely wrong all the time for being a CCP rise alt, at the moment its standard practice to use racial jammers on... well ALL ECM warships. particular flavours of amarr and caldari for the puposes of breaking up enemy logi.

whelp peoples! it appears that we've been wrong this whole time! multispectral jammers for everyone \o/

its been fun folks, i'll be back this evening to continue if people are interested in the discussion ^^

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#694 - 2013-05-08 10:58:27 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
query... are you telling me that you, personally, believe that racial jammers are useless? just looking for some clarification because, after all i'm completely wrong all the time for being a CCP rise alt, at the moment its standard practice to use racial jammers on... well ALL ECM warships. particular flavours of amarr and caldari for the puposes of breaking up enemy logi.

whelp peoples! it appears that we've been wrong this whole time! multispectral jammers for everyone \o/

its been fun folks, i'll be back this evening to continue if people are interested in the discussion ^^

where did i write that ? heh? you just making things up
looks like this is your usual debate
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#695 - 2013-05-08 11:00:37 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
query... are you telling me that you, personally, believe that racial jammers are useless? just looking for some clarification because, after all i'm completely wrong all the time for being a CCP rise alt, at the moment its standard practice to use racial jammers on... well ALL ECM warships. particular flavours of amarr and caldari for the puposes of breaking up enemy logi.

whelp peoples! it appears that we've been wrong this whole time! multispectral jammers for everyone \o/

its been fun folks, i'll be back this evening to continue if people are interested in the discussion ^^

where did i write that ? heh? you just making things up
looks like this is your usual debate



Eh fuk him hes just a tool trying to keep Caldari getting the Shaft when it comes to reworks.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#696 - 2013-05-08 11:07:50 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
...as for the raven being too slow/sluggish and (or?) having too weak a tank for a battleship i'm curious how the typhoon, a battleship which is both SLOWER and harder to tank is "just better"?...
I would argue the Typhoon is better at applying damage based of bonuses and slot layout. Whether it is a better than the Raven as a Cruise Missile Battleship... I can't say.

I will say that I would like to see a viable Battleship class torpedo ship (just my preference). The Raven has the bonus (range) while the Typhoon has the slot layout. An interesting choice by CCP. Since you are a CCP alt... could you explain why. Blink
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#697 - 2013-05-08 12:56:17 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:

the typhoon has significant difficulty fitting a full rack of torpedo launchers and a pair of 1600mm plates

the typhoon with 2 1600mm plates is slower than the raven

Unless you're using a different updated set of stats than I am, the only way this works is if you've put a nano on the Raven. Oh, wait - yes, under MWD the Raven is very slightly faster.
Quote:

the typhoon can, assuming it wishes to tank, only manage 3 ballistic control systems to the raven's four. this is compensated for by its heavy drone deployment, however the raven still out ranges the typhoons torpedoes by 10 kilometres. remember when i mentioned it was faster? :D

A Raven with 4 x BCSII and a tank and Torps is way over its CPU, so you need to rig for that. So much for complaining that the Typhoon has CPU issues.
Quote:

the typhoon, in terms of raw damage, in torpedo range, has the advantage. however, the raven's frankly absurd fitting ability gives it a significant edge when it comes to fitting tank, dps mods and, should it so please, a heavy neut in its highs for support.
I'm not sure where you're getting the power for that neut from.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#698 - 2013-05-08 13:07:27 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:

perhaps stating that the Rokh fights like a Napoleonic warship within the fleet while the Hyperion fights like a german battleship of world war 2 would be a more accurate description?

So, a Rokh gets in a nice line with it's mates, stands off the enemy so closely that marines in the tops are shooting at people on the decks with muskets and blasts away hours. Sounds like a blaster brawling ship to me.

As for the Hyperion - you're saying that it is fast, and is intended to avoid fighting other battleships, but rather is supposed to engage enemy freighters? Got it.

In other words - you really have your notion of how RL ships fought messed up.

The thing is - the word 'battleship' is another way of saying 'ship of the line', and in both cases it meant a ship that had enough firepower and resilience to stand in the main battle line and slug it out with the enemy, at whatever range was the norm for that time.
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how about a more simple description...

the rokh is a fleet boat, the Hyperion is a small to mid gang roamer.

Now you're talking more sensibly - you're using terms that exist within the context of EVE.
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1 hyperion will beat 1 rokh, 100 rokhs will beat 100 Hyperion. why? because the rokhs have weaker damage, but better application and stiffer tanks.

the two ships WERE both teir 3's, but that distinction is irrelevant now as they're BOTH combat battleships: one for big fights, one for smaller fights.

And now we have a problem, because this leaves the Caldari with no good short-range options. Also, I'm not at all convinced that 100 Hyperions would lose to 100 Rokhs - this only works if the Rokhs are snipers and manage to stay at range, and at that point the size of the engagement doesn't matter (assuming no logi - with logi on the field, it's a whole other game).
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#699 - 2013-05-08 15:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Connall Tara wrote:
Quote:
Typhoon: Rage Torpedos with 2 webs and a target painter, applies full DPS. Does not sacrifice tank.

Raven: Rage Torpedos with 2 webs and a target painter, does not apply full DPS. No longer has a viable tank.


how wonderfully Bill O Reilly of you.

"the raven is completely terrible in every way because it can't tank as well as a typhoon if it only uses 3 of its 7 slots for tank!"

would you like to educate us on how the drake is completely worthless in a blaster brawl because it doesn't do as much dps?

as i said earlier, and feel free to check, the typhoon IS a better torpedo boat than the raven, but only in the same way that a megathron is a better blaster boat than a rokh. under 5km? megathron is king. but over 13? can't stop the rokh

the typhoon most certainly gets more bang for its buck from its torpedoes, that's the intention. but move up the scale, the torpedo typhoon's ability to apply damage plummets after 20km, the raven however? it gets to keep applying damage on targets until the 30 kilometer mark, shall we factor in "javelin" torps as well? where the raven can now punt out to 45km?

see this is the point i'm trying to make, the raven isn't outclassd by the typhoon. its certainly weaker in some areas: its damage is less effective against smaller targets, it doesn't have as much raw dps (at least for torpedo vs torpedo, it wins cruise vs cruise) and it doesn't have as much utility in the mids.

in compensation however? its missiles are faster, so is less likely to loose damage due to "missed" vollys, its got a massive range advantage, hitting out beyond longpoint range with its torpedoes, the ship its self is faster than the typhoon thanks to being a shield tanker and if its willing to move its support tasks over to a back up ship like an arazu or a huginn? it rushes ahead in applied damage.

its just like the rokh, the raven is a fleet ship, the typhoon is a small gang ship.


Given the fact that the phoon applies more damage than the raven with its bonus, it comes out to more than 40 dps. It also has all the mid slots in the world to allow it to stack webs and target painters.

The Raven on the other hand does not. A shield tanked phoon will apply more damage and an armor one will still apply more damage.
As for the shield fit phoon, it has high battle cruiser tank, it also HAS battlecruiser sig, which allows it to automatically tank better, and in armor form it will have a battleship tank with battlecruiser sig which automatically still makes it a better tank than the raven with its huge sig.

The phoon armor tanked with 2 plates is faster than the raven.

With probes range bonus anything near 150km is a kill mail waiting to happen. Love how you claim that the raven is weaker in some areas, when it is weaker in all areas but range...Also with the phoon bonus it will be able to apply damage with cruise better thus meaning higher dps.

You try to argue how the raven is not bad off by blowing smoke up our backside and then demonize the people who feel it needs a buff. Will you call them racist for not agreeing the phoon should be better next time? Typical liberal tactic..

How wonderfully Chris Matthews of you.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#700 - 2013-05-08 15:55:02 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
You do realize a Torpedo Raven suks the sweat off a deadmans balls.....


That is surprisingly disgusting and I have yet to determine if that was supposed to be a good thing or not. Shocked


Sweat of a dead mans is totally the new rage, you should try it. Evil