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An analysis of nullsec mining changes in Odyssey

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Callic Veratar
#41 - 2013-05-01 20:55:48 UTC
pmchem wrote:
You assume 30 ice miners will be at each highsec belt, and that group mining with corpmates will die out and discourage player industry ops. However, a counter-argument could be made that player cooperation will become only more important, as corpmates scout out different ice belts and then summon aid to mine the ice before other corps can do it. You could even see more wardecs as people try to protect "their turf" from other corps, leading to increased player interaction and cooperation beteween pvp and industry players -- prelude to a corp ready to move to low/nullsec. These are good things. And, of course, your statement that ice belts won't be around when people get home is too strong. In reality, there will be a distribution of outcomes on that front and people may need to interact with friends to find out where the ice is when they get home. What kind of gameplay is it to have a static objective which never changes, never depletes -- can never really be accomplished? Bots aside, this is a great gameplay change.


In theory, your argument is valid. However, consider what happens when you dec the average highsec player corp. Either, the players keep functioning, business as normal, get blown up, and complain on the forums about being grieved, or they leave the game.

The first option, if it happens enough, results in the second. Many would say that it's a good thing, that if people don't want to interact with others that it's better that they're gone, but I find that to be a dangerous train of logic. It leads to selection of who belongs and tiers of players, discrimination, and stories of a poisonous community. We already have "I love the game but the community...", we don't need game mechanics that support view.
James Rockwell
Doge Taxez
#42 - 2013-05-01 20:57:54 UTC
Now that the ice belts are anomalies I vote for them to be redone into comets. So you warp to these comets with the long tail and everything. Comets have been shown to be 10-30km. Or at least an added feature to scan down with probes in all systems for rare ice in these comets, enough for a solo pilot.
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2013-05-01 21:07:13 UTC
A somewhat simple way of negating the crunch for the correct fuel outside of the racial area would be to add the ability to use non-racial isotopes at a penalty of 50% (with a skill that reduces the penalty by 5%/lvl) and /fuel blocks at a penalty of 25%.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
Callic Veratar
#44 - 2013-05-01 21:11:11 UTC
I'm trying to think of a new type of ice that could be introduced to highsec that could pad out the belts so that they last longer. Ideally something that produces a cheap, consumable resource, but I can't think of anything that'd work.

Maybe a new type of cap booster or fuel based propulsion modules?
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-05-01 21:17:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I hear we're comparing like totals in this thread now so I came running.


There's always a bigger fish.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Partak Cadelanne
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-05-01 21:18:08 UTC
What is beyond me is why the current ice mining mechanic is being kept in place. AFK ice mining in high sec might have been tolerable (I wouldn't know as I don't mine), but mining in null sec can't be done AFK on a large scale. So basically you press a button and stare at local for 15 minutes, and repeat this cycle as long as you can endure. Hardly engaging PVE gameplay worthy of a 2013 MMO. Why anyone would put up with that instead of spending time on the more interesting parts of Eve is beyond me. Ratting, while still being boring, at least have some variety.
Danni stark
#47 - 2013-05-01 21:24:23 UTC
Partak Cadelanne wrote:
What is beyond me is why the current ice mining mechanic is being kept in place. AFK ice mining in high sec might have been tolerable (I wouldn't know as I don't mine), but mining in null sec can't be done AFK on a large scale. So basically you press a button and stare at local for 15 minutes, and repeat this cycle as long as you can endure. Hardly engaging PVE gameplay worthy of a 2013 MMO. Why anyone would put up with that instead of spending time on the more interesting parts of Eve is beyond me. Ratting, while still being boring, at least have some variety.


you say that like ice mining uses a unique mechanic that no other activity uses. shame that isn't true.

also mining as a mechanic is perfectly fine. it's also fine that you don't want to do it, plenty of others do.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
Kor'el Izia
#48 - 2013-05-01 21:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kor'el Izia
Add a new Infrastructure upgrade that generates ice anoms?

It will be sad to see you go Mynna/corestwo , now who will do the market speculation since you can't leak CSM stuff?

CCP Fozzie; How long do you calculate it will take miners to strip an ice anom clean with the new mechanics? Given the 4h respawn timers(perhaps most ice miners were EU-players?) is it really safe to say that highsec supplied ice will only drop from 98.4% to 80% global supply?
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#49 - 2013-05-01 21:32:42 UTC
Ice belt re spawn should not be fixed at 4h but at some random period of time averaging around 4h. That way it is less likely there will be periods where most ice bells in high sec are depleted. If re-spawn remains non randomised we will have period after downtime when all belts are cleared out within hour or so, then 4 hour of nothing for hig sec miners to do, then again hour or so of mining frenzy, followed by another for hours of indolence, and so on. That would suck. So randomising re spawn periods a bit would even out time distribution of ice availability.

Also something should be done about omebr. After this change omber will become by far worst ore, and nobody wants to to mine it even today. Omber needs some love.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Partak Cadelanne
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-05-01 21:41:50 UTC
Danni stark wrote:
Partak Cadelanne wrote:
What is beyond me is why the current ice mining mechanic is being kept in place. AFK ice mining in high sec might have been tolerable (I wouldn't know as I don't mine), but mining in null sec can't be done AFK on a large scale. So basically you press a button and stare at local for 15 minutes, and repeat this cycle as long as you can endure. Hardly engaging PVE gameplay worthy of a 2013 MMO. Why anyone would put up with that instead of spending time on the more interesting parts of Eve is beyond me. Ratting, while still being boring, at least have some variety.


you say that like ice mining uses a unique mechanic that no other activity uses. shame that isn't true.

also mining as a mechanic is perfectly fine. it's also fine that you don't want to do it, plenty of others do.



My point being that the long cycle times of ice miners makes it mostly a matter of watching local, which isn't great PVE content.

Surely more variety in mining would be good for Eve from a PVE perspective (which arguably is one of Eve's weakest points).
Mathrin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-05-01 21:43:54 UTC
IIRC ice has no +5% or plus +10%. This should be added and like ore, is effected by truesec.
Kor'el Izia
#52 - 2013-05-01 21:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kor'el Izia
Mathrin wrote:
IIRC ice has no +5% or plus +10%. This should be added and like ore, is effected by truesec.

They do appear to have something similiar

Blue Ice vs Thick Blue Ice is almost +50%
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#53 - 2013-05-01 21:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
mynnna wrote:

DarthNefarius wrote:


How come you don't have a CSM tag yet? Hurry up & sign that NDA LolBlink

EDIT: HA I just realized I got more likes then a CSM member P


Because we haven't officially taken office yet or something. And, I've got 1100 more likes on the other character that I used to post on. And, I've only been posting on this character for a couple of months, so I'd pass you in short order anyway.

So there.


P Well my ALT does too P

When does the official taking of office happen? I thought the Fanfest announcement was it. So is it the first summit?
I guess it's within a month of fanfest else Mittens could have fallen outside the ban kicking him of of CSM8.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#54 - 2013-05-01 21:56:11 UTC
Kor'el Izia wrote:
Mathrin wrote:
IIRC ice has no +5% or plus +10%. This should be added and like ore, is effected by truesec.

They do appear to have something similiar

Blue Ice vs Thick Blue Ice is almost +50%

It's nowhere near 50%, and it's the low/null version of the highsec ore

it's about 1/6th better
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#55 - 2013-05-01 22:00:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I hear we're comparing like totals in this thread now so I came running.


Like ho'ing? So May Day is a Holiday in Iceland FONZZIE ayeeeeeee?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Taki Natsu
Minor Inconvenience Inc.
#56 - 2013-05-01 22:29:23 UTC
Thank you for posting Jita Bloodtear... I tried posting some numbers relating to the compression issue in the feedback thread but looks like they got quietly ignored.

Many thanks for getting the ice issue the attention it deserves.
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#57 - 2013-05-01 22:39:22 UTC
The 80% number seems problematic. Is it based on full and instant utilization of all available ice, in practice far less than that will be harvested. Is it really the intent to have people standing around pressing scan anticipating a belt then rushing like mad to remove it?

Also, ice is utilizaed in low and wormholes. Presumablly high sec will supply that ice as null is not known for its trade hubs. How does the ice availability in high compare to that neeed in low+wormhole+high sec?
Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
#58 - 2013-05-01 22:41:42 UTC
Ignoring the mining aspect (which the OP did and excellent job covering), I'd like to turn the discussion to logistics and politics.

At some point, the demand of ice products is going to outstrip supply. Combining that with ganks, wardecs, null wars, cloakers, and so on means that the day of reckoning will arrive that much sooner.

So what will happen? Will the 0.0 groups go to war with each other over precious ice resources? Will the big blue donut get even bigger as groups band together to share? Will 0.0 bears come to high sec and 'take over' the high sec ice belts (after all, what's easier, structure grinding or knocking over a bunch of carebeary sand castles?)

We could be looking at a case of not enough fields, and too many farms.

"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Ginger Barbarella
#59 - 2013-05-01 22:47:49 UTC
James Rockwell wrote:
Now that the ice belts are anomalies I vote for them to be redone into comets. So you warp to these comets with the long tail and everything. Comets have been shown to be 10-30km. Or at least an added feature to scan down with probes in all systems for rare ice in these comets, enough for a solo pilot.


I'd go with this with one caveat: as the comet deteriorates due to mining, it's trajectory would necessarily shift, the rock shatter, and the risk should be there for a sudden collision between ship and chunk of rock, resulting in ship destruction.

Yeah, that would be kewl (with a "K")... Twisted

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Kor'el Izia
#60 - 2013-05-01 23:14:30 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Kor'el Izia wrote:
Mathrin wrote:
IIRC ice has no +5% or plus +10%. This should be added and like ore, is effected by truesec.

They do appear to have something similiar

Blue Ice vs Thick Blue Ice is almost +50%

It's nowhere near 50%, and it's the low/null version of the highsec ore

it's about 1/6th better


Heavy water
Blue Ice: 50 units
Thick Blue Ice: 75 units(+50%)

Liquid Ozone
Blue Ice: 25 units
Thick Blue Ice: 40 units(+60%)

Strontium
Blue Ice: 0 units
Thick Blue Ice: 1 unit(+100%)

Oxygen Isotopes
Blue Ice: 300 units
Thick Blue Ice: 350 units (+16%)

Thick Blue Ice yields on average 56.5% more than Blue Ice.

Yeah the higher yields should naturally be found in low/null.