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Dev Blog: Resource Shakeup in Odyssey: Just don’t call it a Cataclysm + Companion blog

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EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#601 - 2013-04-30 22:38:24 UTC
basically ice spawns in an ice system are now fun happy times for extra riches in mining!!!

instead of a thing you botmine for however long you wish to mine

so basically think of it as semi-predictable faction mining spawns
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#602 - 2013-04-30 22:39:18 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
plus, the ice will become much more valuable so the "small miner" that people complaining about their 10 account mining setup are supposedly championing will earn far more in the period he can get at the ice anom than he would otherwise


The small miner will only find a respawn timer, not a piece of the now more valuable pie.

the small miner will find an ice anom given the amount of time he is logged in the exact same percentage of the time the 10 account "small miner" does for the amount of time he is logged in
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#603 - 2013-04-30 22:41:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


The only big defect of this new system is that it's a "go in and hoard all ice with 70 alts FAST, leaving smaller miners ZERO chances and 4 hours to wait again".
Every of the very few ice systems will have its 2-3 big hoard sharks, the others will just be crushed and will quit.

Or: one hoarder that cycles through several systems over a 4 hour period. You could follow the hoard........

2500 units of ice can be mined out by 100 miners in 17 minutes. Add 3 minutes more for unloading and moving, and you get 3 belts an hour, 12 in the 4 hour cycle. A hoard of 100 miners (and I think there is at least one multiboxer who flies 100 miners). can keep 12 belts cleared.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#604 - 2013-04-30 22:43:13 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
plus, the ice will become much more valuable so the "small miner" that people complaining about their 10 account mining setup are supposedly championing will earn far more in the period he can get at the ice anom than he would otherwise


The small miner will only find a respawn timer, not a piece of the now more valuable pie.

the small miner will find an ice anom given the amount of time he is logged in the exact same percentage of the time the 10 account "small miner" does for the amount of time he is logged in


Welcome to the new Eden booking system! Where you log in to play and... find a spawn timer. But hey, it's a FAIR spawn time for everyone, how could it be wrong? Roll



Here's how it WILL go:


1) Log in.

2) Scan.

3) Find there's nothing in system and of course no clue about when respawn will occur.

4) (Only the first days) move the whole fleet to another system 5-6 jumps away either in slowass Orca or in 17s aligment time ships that can't even travel a medium size system in one jump.

5) Discover that not only you don't have standings in there, but also that the ice belt's cleared up there as well.

6) (Only the first days) return back to "home".

7) Log off. Or try PvP with the money you made with minin... oh wait.

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Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#605 - 2013-04-30 22:43:26 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
plus, the ice will become much more valuable so the "small miner" that people complaining about their 10 account mining setup are supposedly championing will earn far more in the period he can get at the ice anom than he would otherwise


The small miner will only find a respawn timer, not a piece of the now more valuable pie.

the small miner will find an ice anom given the amount of time he is logged in the exact same percentage of the time the 10 account "small miner" does for the amount of time he is logged in



True.. but the 10 account miner will pull in 10 times more in that few minutes the belt is actually alive.
Frying Doom
#606 - 2013-04-30 22:43:53 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
basically ice spawns in an ice system are now fun happy times for extra riches in mining!!!

instead of a thing you botmine for however long you wish to mine

so basically think of it as semi-predictable faction mining spawns

Yeah the joys of waiting for hours for the ice to spawn.

I can hardly contain the excitement.

People will be better off getting out of Ice mining and doing something with a steady income. Ice mining has now become the working on commission, life style, if your lucky you make the sale, if not well your living in a box.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Gaufres
Just Keep Hanging On
#607 - 2013-04-30 22:44:31 UTC
It looks like the Amarr are really getting screwed on the Ice. They have the largest Empire, it is reasonable to expect that they would have the most Ice available.


As far as the changes to the High End Ore, it is not needed. There is plenty of Null to mine Veldspar and Scordite in. The fact that they do not choose to do so is their problem. Some of the Ore did need changing some, the infamous Spud and the Gneiss, but why were the Pyro left out of the changes?
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#608 - 2013-04-30 22:47:26 UTC
Soko99 wrote:

True.. but the 10 account miner will pull in 10 times more in that few minutes the belt is actually alive.

well of course

but VV is claiming, somewhat improbably, that the solo guy will never see the ice anom. of course he will, and he'll get the same boost to his profit the multiboxer does.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#609 - 2013-04-30 22:47:59 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
basically ice spawns in an ice system are now fun happy times for extra riches in mining!!!

instead of a thing you botmine for however long you wish to mine

so basically think of it as semi-predictable faction mining spawns

Yeah the joys of waiting for hours for the ice to spawn.

I can hardly contain the excitement.

People will be better off getting out of Ice mining and doing something with a steady income. Ice mining has now become the working on commission, life style, if your lucky you make the sale, if not well your living in a box.

ice mining is no longer basically reskinned veld mining, yes
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#610 - 2013-04-30 22:49:42 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Welcome to the new Eden booking system! Where you log in to play and... find a spawn timer. But hey, it's a FAIR spawn time for everyone, how could it be wrong? Roll


then you mine ore, woe is you
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#611 - 2013-04-30 22:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
i mean woe is actually you you're highsec mining in your spare time, but it's not like your life has actually gotten worse because of this change, you were a highsec miner beforehand too

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

4) (Only the first days) move the whole fleet to another system 5-6 jumps away either in slowass Orca or in 17s aligment time ships that can't even travel a medium size system in one jump.

you know you could scout it before you move everything right

most eve players would figure that out

you know i'm even going to do you a solid and show you how to scout the owners of refineries in systems without warping ten accounts there: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Jita
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#612 - 2013-04-30 22:56:10 UTC
If you can do the extra effort it takes to set up an organization that can get enough miners into an ice belt to one cycle it the second it spawns why shouldn't you be able to screw over people who aren't quite as organized?

If you don't like it maybe you should do something to disrupt organized playergroups like, wardec, wait no no, I know, suicide gank, no that won't work, Bump, no that's stupid. Well I guess you're boned because you are never going to leave highsec. Bye!
Martis Gradivus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#613 - 2013-04-30 23:00:09 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Soko99 wrote:

True.. but the 10 account miner will pull in 10 times more in that few minutes the belt is actually alive.

well of course

but VV is claiming, somewhat improbably, that the solo guy will never see the ice anom. of course he will, and he'll get the same boost to his profit the multiboxer does.


Yeah, but you are assuming that the solo miner will arrive before the belt is mined out.

4 hour spawn timers will hurt the casual player a lot.

Most people, myself included, play EVE around my schedule, and don't plan my schedule around EVE.

This seems like a half-baked idea.

Already, the price of Ice Blocks and products is skyrocketing. Glacial mass went from a buy price of 95,000 isk to about 190,000 isk per block.

Those who were in the know have profited like crazy, and this again is problematic for the casual player for whom that same amount of ISK that would by him 5 apples on Monday will now only buy him 2.

Unless I am not seeing this right, and I just might not be, the winners here will be the early-birds as well as the secure SOV alliances. Unfortuately for may people, myself included, I work all day and no SOV alliance will allow me to go mine in their secure SOV.

Change is needed, yes, but brought about gradually while looking at the effects as you apply them.....not by wielding a sledgehammer and wondering why you broke the wall you were trying to drive a nail into.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#614 - 2013-04-30 23:06:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Welcome back Fozzie.

There are a number of people asking that you keep the grav sites as signatures (probable), as opposed to converting them to anomalies. I would like to give you two more reasons to avoid making the conversion. First the work to do this can be avoided, leaving happier players. Second, changing this now and then discovering the problems will only cause more difficulties in the future. Of course, the numerous reasons already listed are also important such as the problems that this causes for wormhole miners, a miner considering low sec, and some null sec miners.

I would also like to see the new ice sites as signatures, but keeping the grav sites is more important.


We're quite happy in general with the increased risk associated with the increased reward. Ore sites in lowsec, 0.0 and wormholes (especially lowsec) are getting a whole lot more valuable.


CCP Fozzie, question: assuming perfect navigation skills, how long does it take a Hulk to go from a standing start to align and warp out? And now, how long does it take a standard scout frigate (for arguments sake, lets say a dramiel) to land in system, scan and warp to an anomoly?

While I appreciate the time honored tradition of risk and reward, there is risk, and then there is suicide. For your information, nul-sec miners do not ever mine in asteroid belts, with the sole except of the very limited time spent in order to generate the first grav site. The reason being that to do so is suicide. This proposal, as it currently stands, is not going to help or generate content, but instead is going to kill off a huge swade of current, happy, gameplay.

Alot of people are telling you here that you need to revist this and think very hard about it.

And before anyone chimes in with the standard "mine while aligned", I swear I'll scream.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Maul555
Xen Investments
#615 - 2013-04-30 23:15:08 UTC
Crexa wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:

Right now, mining in WHs is only barely safe by virtue of your opponents needing to get probes out to find you, and an experienced prober can still find you with the probes only being visible on dscan for less than 30 seconds. But that still gives the victim--I mean, miner--a small chance to spot the probes and GTFO before it's too late.

With grav sites being anoms, you have only a few seconds' window to spot the attacker (if their incoming wh is within dscan range, the short period between wh cloak and true cloak), or no window at all. There is no reasonable room for pilots to "practice vigilance" outside of gimping your yield by replacing one of your strip miners with a scan probe launcher. A 50% yield loss makes it a waste of time.

The rest of the changes look good, but mining in WHs will become significantly more dangerous in Odyssey if ore sites become anomalies.

So, mining in WH becomes almost as dangerous as mining in NO high-sec? Don't see the problem... :)


IT becomes a whole hell'ava lot MORE dangerous. As there is no warning, no chance of escape and NO FRIGGIN LOCAL! The roids in WH better spit out billions in pure isk, to make it worth while with these changes. I **** you not!




Yup... As a WH mininer for the past 3 years who currently lives in a C4, I will be stockpiling "cheap/disposable" mining barges to deal with the coming onslaught. I should probably skill my scan alts better, as I will probably be needing to find my way back into the WH very often now. My WH Hulk and Mackinaw will never undock again... I will probably just ship them back to highsec for safe storage.
Crexa
Ion Industrials
#616 - 2013-04-30 23:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
EI Digin wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The new way is better, in RL most of the times there is a scarcity of resources and prices factor in that scarcity.

The old way had a BIG flaw: with the multiboxers and botters, ices price would slowly tend to zero over time (actually to the equivalent of 1 PLEX a month). Now divide 1 PLEX value for the hours in a month (bots don't sleep) and you'll get how low ice was destined to go if CCP did not step in and create a finite resources system.


The only big defect of this new system is that it's a "go in and hoard all ice with 70 alts FAST, leaving smaller miners ZERO chances and 4 hours to wait again".
Every of the very few ice systems will have its 2-3 big hoard sharks, the others will just be crushed and will quit.


So the old system was flawed because there was infinite ice, but now the new system is flawed because there is a limited amount of ice.

Got it.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal That is not what is being said. Its the implementation of the scarcity that is flawed.

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"
Holderof Corp
Doomheim
#617 - 2013-04-30 23:30:21 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
plus, the ice will become much more valuable so the "small miner" that people complaining about their 10 account mining setup are supposedly championing will earn far more in the period he can get at the ice anom than he would otherwise


The small miner will only find a respawn timer, not a piece of the now more valuable pie.

the small miner will find an ice anom given the amount of time he is logged in the exact same percentage of the time the 10 account "small miner" does for the amount of time he is logged in


No doubt, and you are correct the probability is the same.

BUT

There are approx 23 mining hours per anom. That means the larger your fleet the more of those hours you can take per anom.

The maths bit ... 10 man fleet (9 miners 1 max boost orca) vs solo miner.

Assuming max skills the boosted miners will hit 60 second cycles, the individual 97 seconds. So immediately there is a mining multiplier of 33%. So the 9 man fleet is actually acting as 12 solo miners.

Again assuming 108 blocks per mining hour that leaves our poor solo miner will reap in 1.2 mining hours worth or approx 130 blocks.

That gives us an average per hour (mining time plus potential respawn time) of 26 blocks per hour IF this scenario was over a complete day.

Under the current system the very same solo miner can bring in 36 blocks per hour constant.

A simple percentage calculation means that unless the price of the ice increases by 28% then the solo miner is losing out with the new system.

I would point out that the 23/7 model is totally unrealistic (and would prob end up with a ban for botting :D ) as is the idea that the high sec anoms will not be flooded with miners within the first few minutes of the anom spawning. There is no way that a solo miner will be able to make a fraction their current income under the new system, it is a multi boxer charter.

edit - some of my maths may be a bit off doing this in my head on the fly so please dont get too neckbeard .. the general principle still holds.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#618 - 2013-05-01 00:13:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Welcome to the new Eden booking system! Where you log in to play and... find a spawn timer. But hey, it's a FAIR spawn time for everyone, how could it be wrong? Roll


then you mine ore, woe is you


*I* can, because I have both ice rigged MAcks with Orca at ice and roids other ships in 2 other places in EvE. Most won't, nor it'll be practical to have to fly around like a moron flipping between ice fleet in caldari lands and mining fleet at Amarr vast hi sec country land (keeping roid digging ships anywhere near ice = dumb = find roids always depleted so no, you won't).

You infer the game should be balanced on 10k men organizations like yorus and and hundreds of billions rich people like me I guess? Well then it's sad.

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Holderof Corp
Doomheim
#619 - 2013-05-01 00:19:10 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Welcome to the new Eden booking system! Where you log in to play and... find a spawn timer. But hey, it's a FAIR spawn time for everyone, how could it be wrong? Roll


then you mine ore, woe is you


*I* can, because I have both ice rigged MAcks with Orca at ice and roids other ships in 2 other places in EvE. Most won't, nor it'll be practical to have to fly around like a moron flipping between ice fleet in caldari lands and mining fleet at Amarr vast hi sec country land (keeping roid digging ships anywhere near ice = dumb = find roids always depleted so no, you won't).

You infer the game should be balanced on 10k men organizations like yorus and and hundreds of billions rich people like me I guess? Well then it's sad.


Of course he does, because now that the Goons can no longer suck on the Tech tit they may just have to find a new way to exploit their space.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#620 - 2013-05-01 00:20:51 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
i mean woe is actually you you're highsec mining in your spare time, but it's not like your life has actually gotten worse because of this change, you were a highsec miner beforehand too

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

4) (Only the first days) move the whole fleet to another system 5-6 jumps away either in slowass Orca or in 17s aligment time ships that can't even travel a medium size system in one jump.

you know you could scout it before you move everything right

most eve players would figure that out

you know i'm even going to do you a solid and show you how to scout the owners of refineries in systems without warping ten accounts there: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Jita



If only there were 50 ice systems per empire. But no, there aren't. You can dotlan your fill but empty belts will still be empty belts even if you accept to have the worst refining.

Also, *even in the best scenario*, moving Macks across 5-6 systems will still find yourself arriving 10 minutes later (they fly like dogs and no, Orcas won't fit them all and align slow anyway) and find.... TA DA! almost nothing left.

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