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Dev Blog: Resource Shakeup in Odyssey: Just don’t call it a Cataclysm + Companion blog

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Doukyou
Deafening Silence Syndiate
#581 - 2013-04-30 21:13:57 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Doukyou wrote:
Thanks alot Fozzie you just shut down my pos.

Ah, you're also planning to switch doing all your nasty things at outpost, right?
Oh wait, you mean you prefer to crumble and die? What a wise way of dealing with challenge!



No, its not a expression of my lack of desire for a challenge. I like challenges that make sense. This new way of setting up the ice fields is absolutely retard3d the amount of ice should NEVER be determined by player needs. It should be in an ort cloud, or if there is anomalies they should be comets. Ort clouds should be be non regenerative and be present in all systems in varying degrees based on security status. IE how long the system has been occupied and used in empire. The longer its been in use the less ice should be initially put in the cloud. The total high sec ice should be enough to take eve thru it's 20th anniversary.

Anomalies should be comets which are moving till the ice is gone. Comet mining anyone?

I think CCP has gotten stuck on the idea of being a driver of conflict. I have no problem with this on a small scale, but to radically shift a basic item like this is ABSOLUTELY the wrong direction to take the game. You want players to be active doing things like PVP, then don't make them go hunting and pecking for ice fields. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe. How does this change make sense? Only if Stupidity is the most common element on Fozzie's team.

Can you tell I am a little upset about the repercussions of this change?
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#582 - 2013-04-30 21:35:56 UTC
Mithril Ryder wrote:

That is so laughable I don't even know where to start. Yes, bottlenecks that involve player time, skill and even luck do what you say, but artificial and static supply side bottlenecks do not.

yeah that's wrong, so I would start with by being right instead of wrong
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#583 - 2013-04-30 21:45:31 UTC
Doukyou wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Doukyou wrote:
Thanks alot Fozzie you just shut down my pos.

Ah, you're also planning to switch doing all your nasty things at outpost, right?
Oh wait, you mean you prefer to crumble and die? What a wise way of dealing with challenge!



No, its not a expression of my lack of desire for a challenge. I like challenges that make sense. This new way of setting up the ice fields is absolutely retard3d the amount of ice should NEVER be determined by player needs. It should be in an ort cloud, or if there is anomalies they should be comets. Ort clouds should be be non regenerative and be present in all systems in varying degrees based on security status. IE how long the system has been occupied and used in empire. The longer its been in use the less ice should be initially put in the cloud. The total high sec ice should be enough to take eve thru it's 20th anniversary.

Anomalies should be comets which are moving till the ice is gone. Comet mining anyone?

I think CCP has gotten stuck on the idea of being a driver of conflict. I have no problem with this on a small scale, but to radically shift a basic item like this is ABSOLUTELY the wrong direction to take the game. You want players to be active doing things like PVP, then don't make them go hunting and pecking for ice fields. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe. How does this change make sense? Only if Stupidity is the most common element on Fozzie's team.

Can you tell I am a little upset about the repercussions of this change?

that is an incredibly dumb idea

"lets make the game have a finite amount of this consumed resource for absolutely no reason other than i said it should be that way for reasons that are beyond logical comprehension"
Frying Doom
#584 - 2013-04-30 21:55:20 UTC
I will admit it is a rather large shift of the game.

We have gone from a player driven economy, now to having a limited resource, Ice.

So now prices will no longer be determined by the number of players that feel like mining it, but rather based on the limited supply compared to a larger demand.

Personally I think price of fuel blocks will actually go higher when this goes live.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#585 - 2013-04-30 21:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Crexa wrote:

Adapt. I've always loved that word. Lets all say it... Adapt. Unfortunately, in these forums the word Adapt, is being used as a euphemism for SHUT UP.


It's fun to tell the employer he has to adapt so that the player can adapt to the new EvE schedule.


agreed, i demand all moneymaking options in game be balanced around my unique schedule rather than various options being better for various schedules

accordingly, i demand a complete rebalance of ratting to accommodate my logging in for 5-10 minutes per day to look at the market


So, by seeing previous responses, if I ask CCP Fozzie about the schedule so that I decide if I adapt by unsubbing 6 of my accounts, I am crying on the forums.

If I ask if the schedule could be different (avoiding me to adapt in a CCP damaging way), then I am "demanding".


I feel ever more surprised by the lengths people are ready to accept any kind of abuse thrown at them.
Sorry I am not in your club, I have so many subs in many MMOs (not one paid with PLEX even in EvE) that I am free to choose which game wins my free time and how much I'll invest in it.

If EvE becomes incompatible with my schedule, it's CCP's bad, not mine. I'll keep 2-4 subs and let the others lapse. That's the 101 of adapting without bending over and without gifting money away.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#586 - 2013-04-30 22:01:09 UTC
Maul555 wrote:

There needs to be a place for solo miners in wormhole space. I cannot lock down a system by myself, and I am very often the only person in my corp that is logged in some evenings... My only recourse has been to pay attention, but now that will not work either. a cloaked ship can find me with no signs of their presence. I am farked... just plain farked...


You are meant to leave the WH and join a blobby 10000 men corp and stay in their own secured space.

As they say in this thread, you have to adapt! Lol

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#587 - 2013-04-30 22:13:13 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
I will admit it is a rather large shift of the game.

We have gone from a player driven economy, now to having a limited resource, Ice.

So now prices will no longer be determined by the number of players that feel like mining it, but rather based on the limited supply compared to a larger demand.

Personally I think price of fuel blocks will actually go higher when this goes live.


The new way is better, in RL most of the times there is a scarcity of resources and prices factor in that scarcity.

The old way had a BIG flaw: with the multiboxers and botters, ices price would slowly tend to zero over time (actually to the equivalent of 1 PLEX a month). Now divide 1 PLEX value for the hours in a month (bots don't sleep) and you'll get how low ice was destined to go if CCP did not step in and create a finite resources system.


The only big defect of this new system is that it's a "go in and hoard all ice with 70 alts FAST, leaving smaller miners ZERO chances and 4 hours to wait again".
Every of the very few ice systems will have its 2-3 big hoard sharks, the others will just be crushed and will quit.

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Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#588 - 2013-04-30 22:16:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're quite happy in general with the increased risk associated with the increased reward. Ore sites in lowsec, 0.0 and wormholes (especially lowsec) are getting a whole lot more valuable.

Are wormholes getting the +5%/+10% asteroids, since their truesec is -1?

If so, I'll lean towards agreeing. If not, I still need to lean towards disagreeing. Adding more low-ends to the belts might increase the on-paper value of the belt, but the low-ends present logistics difficulties for wormhole dwellers that might make them not worth it to ship.

Even if the reward doubles (doubtful), the risk has far more than doubled, since there is nothing a miner can do to avoid getting ganked by a new arrival to the wormhole system, unless they gimp their yield by using a probe launcher to continuously scan for new sigs--at which point the reward has gone way down.

I guess at this point there are still too many variables to determine if it will actually be worth it:
- Will low-end mineral prices remain high enough for the additional low-end yield to be a significant contributor to the value?
- Will ice prices be low enough to make rorqual compression worth it?
- Will people end up moving out of the low- and medium-class WHs due to increased ice prices? If so, mining in a C1 will still be "relatively" safe since there will be fewer opportunities for people to get wormholes into your system.

I'll wait and see, but I'm not hopeful for the future of mining in wormholes.
Frying Doom
#589 - 2013-04-30 22:18:04 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Maul555 wrote:

There needs to be a place for solo miners in wormhole space. I cannot lock down a system by myself, and I am very often the only person in my corp that is logged in some evenings... My only recourse has been to pay attention, but now that will not work either. a cloaked ship can find me with no signs of their presence. I am farked... just plain farked...


You are meant to leave the WH and join a blobby 10000 men corp and stay in their own secured space.

As they say in this thread, you have to adapt! Lol

No to adapt, you leave the WH, close all of your accounts bar one, and then go and do mission running or incursions.

Not as much fun, but after you sell all the mining ships ect.. you can plex your last remaining account and use some other suckers money to pay for your account.Smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#590 - 2013-04-30 22:23:50 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
I will admit it is a rather large shift of the game.

We have gone from a player driven economy, now to having a limited resource, Ice.

So now prices will no longer be determined by the number of players that feel like mining it, but rather based on the limited supply compared to a larger demand.

Personally I think price of fuel blocks will actually go higher when this goes live.


The new way is better, in RL most of the times there is a scarcity of resources and prices factor in that scarcity.

The old way had a BIG flaw: with the multiboxers and botters, ices price would slowly tend to zero over time (actually to the equivalent of 1 PLEX a month). Now divide 1 PLEX value for the hours in a month (bots don't sleep) and you'll get how low ice was destined to go if CCP did not step in and create a finite resources system.


The only big defect of this new system is that it's a "go in and hoard all ice with 70 alts FAST, leaving smaller miners ZERO chances and 4 hours to wait again".
Every of the very few ice systems will have its 2-3 big hoard sharks, the others will just be crushed and will quit.

It was a rather strange move by CCP, they make a fortune from multi-boxers, but with this new system it will be first come first served, so if you are fast you will get a fair amount, if not you lose.

And multi-boxing ore mining is a lot harder than ice mining was. I can see even the multiboxers closing accounts down, as now they will have to scan for hours before they can start mining.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#591 - 2013-04-30 22:25:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie,

These proposed changes are perfect and a great way to improve low and nullsec industry, If afk cloaky camping is changed. AFK cloaking is a mechanic that has been argued over for many years, typically defended by useless forum trolls who know it is broken and defend it because they utilize it. Its primary use is griefing and supports stagnant gameplay.

A change in this mechanic is relevant to the proposed changes to support 0.0 and low sec ice mining, the mechanics of limited ice belts makes them prime targets for afk cloaky camping. AFK cloaky camping is a broken, boring, and abused mechanic that needs to removed. We'll be happy to defend mining operations, but defending mining operations from 1 cloaking ship is a useless effort that ends in people getting bored with the game.

Regards,
GeeBee
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#592 - 2013-04-30 22:30:31 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The new way is better, in RL most of the times there is a scarcity of resources and prices factor in that scarcity.

The old way had a BIG flaw: with the multiboxers and botters, ices price would slowly tend to zero over time (actually to the equivalent of 1 PLEX a month). Now divide 1 PLEX value for the hours in a month (bots don't sleep) and you'll get how low ice was destined to go if CCP did not step in and create a finite resources system.


The only big defect of this new system is that it's a "go in and hoard all ice with 70 alts FAST, leaving smaller miners ZERO chances and 4 hours to wait again".
Every of the very few ice systems will have its 2-3 big hoard sharks, the others will just be crushed and will quit.


So the old system was flawed because there was infinite ice, but now the new system is flawed because there is a limited amount of ice.

Got it.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#593 - 2013-04-30 22:30:46 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

It was a rather strange move by CCP, they make a fortune from multi-boxers, but with this new system it will be first come firstonly served, so if you are fast you will get a fair amount, if not you lose.


Corrected where your sentence does not give the true dimension of the new system.

It will be SO BAD it will make the current ores spawns look good.
As of now some time zones are basically screwed as they log in just to find many emptied belts.

But at least they can always move to another, more distant ore belt that also has the correct standings corporation station.

The new and improved ice mining system, instead, will make depletion FAST and being belts so few (imagine super-mined caldari ice belts) you'll just have a bunch of people insta-clearing them in the first minutes then... twist their thumbs for 3 hours and 40 minutes. If you move (since ice systems are so few) you will NOT find your correct standings corporate station, you WILL face substantial logistic nightmares all to get to the new system and... learn that the residents mined it too in 20 minutes so you did all of the effort for naught.

Fun times ahead!

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EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#594 - 2013-04-30 22:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
smaller miners can mine ice just fine

it's the people who expect to log in their 10 accounts to mine for an arbitrary hour at a time can't mine ice

oh dear they have to mine ore instead and there is a significant difference between mining ore and ice in highsec now, for the first time ever adding some variation to it
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#595 - 2013-04-30 22:34:34 UTC
EI Digin wrote:

So the old system was flawed because there was infinite ice, but now the new system is flawed because there is a limited amount of ice.

Got it.


Nope, study better.

It's not just "limited" (which would be fine), it's "limited to those who can log in at the spawn hour and deplete it in minutes".

If you can't see how that's bad for a number of smaller players then you need your logic circuits checked.

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EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#596 - 2013-04-30 22:36:00 UTC
plus, the ice will become much more valuable so the "small miner" that people complaining about their 10 account mining setup are supposedly championing will earn far more in the period he can get at the ice anom than he would otherwise
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#597 - 2013-04-30 22:36:25 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
smaller miners can mine ice just fine

it's the people who expect to log in their 10 accounts to mine for an arbitrary hour at a time can't mine ice

oh dear they have to mine ore instead and there is a significant difference between mining ore and ice in highsec now, for the first time ever adding some variation to it


You bring in your vast experience in the field to produce that statement right?

Because my multi-years experience tells me that Orca + 10 Macks "soloers" / bots will smash the beegezus of the "1 retriever" guys.

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Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#598 - 2013-04-30 22:36:30 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're quite happy in general with the increased risk associated with the increased reward. Ore sites in lowsec, 0.0 and wormholes (especially lowsec) are getting a whole lot more valuable.

Are wormholes getting the +5%/+10% asteroids, since their truesec is -1?

If so, I'll lean towards agreeing. If not, I still need to lean towards disagreeing. Adding more low-ends to the belts might increase the on-paper value of the belt, but the low-ends present logistics difficulties for wormhole dwellers that might make them not worth it to ship.

Even if the reward doubles (doubtful), the risk has far more than doubled, since there is nothing a miner can do to avoid getting ganked by a new arrival to the wormhole system, unless they gimp their yield by using a probe launcher to continuously scan for new sigs--at which point the reward has gone way down.

I guess at this point there are still too many variables to determine if it will actually be worth it:
- Will low-end mineral prices remain high enough for the additional low-end yield to be a significant contributor to the value?
- Will ice prices be low enough to make rorqual compression worth it?
- Will people end up moving out of the low- and medium-class WHs due to increased ice prices? If so, mining in a C1 will still be "relatively" safe since there will be fewer opportunities for people to get wormholes into your system.

I'll wait and see, but I'm not hopeful for the future of mining in wormholes.



I think this will pretty much kill WH mining for any low-medium sized corps. All but the big boys who are constantly fielding fleets will be able to mine secured now. I'm quite sure this will take c1-c3 people off the mining path since those tend to have the smaller corps and the risk vs reward is really not worth it anymore. It was still fairly shifty to mine in a WH since you had to actually pay attention with your Dscan and couldn't just AFK like you do in HS, (or even in some areas of null). Now with it not only being just 1 click, but also instant (if the auto scanning that the fanfest video showed is in fact true) and your opponent hasn't even broken WH cloak before he has you on his Dscan pinpointed on which belt. Add to that the TEDIOUSNESS with which ore is dealt with in the smaller class WHs that do NOT have rorquals to compress their ore, and like I said before. Will just kill the industry there. Having another 5%-10% yield will not offset the ease with which you can get ganked after the changes in a WH.

Perhaps if CCP would tell us what their end game is for WHs. I know they said before it wasn't INTENDED to be lived in permanently.. but now that it's oppened up another whole new world of combat, industry etc. Perhaps they should re-evaluate their intent.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#599 - 2013-04-30 22:37:08 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


You bring in your vast experience in the field to produce that statement right?

Because my multi-years experience tells me that Orca + 10 Macks "soloers" / bots will smash the beegezus of the "1 retriever" guys.

you keep explaining, using yourself as an example, why they won't
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#600 - 2013-04-30 22:37:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
EvilweaselSA wrote:
plus, the ice will become much more valuable so the "small miner" that people complaining about their 10 account mining setup are supposedly championing will earn far more in the period he can get at the ice anom than he would otherwise


The small miner will only find a respawn timer, not a piece of the now more valuable pie.

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