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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#661 - 2011-11-02 06:22:42 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
[quote=Lekgoa]Enyo with neutrons + NULL: 212 gun dps @ 4.2+3.9
But dont forget the most important things. If CCP dont fix blasters just using this weak fix, they wont change them again for other 3 years long. We waiting so much time for fix, and we need a real solution for blaster fix or we would be waiting for another 3 years.
Keep them under pressure. Give to CCP good and useable ideas or they wont fix fine the hybrid guns with this halfway measures.


I got 3,454,119 Skillpoint in hybrid. If CCP just reimburses it, for me that is the fix.
Good riddance.

PS: It is sad to see the hybrid community whining all the time when CCP + other communities
refuse to support their plight just because they do not want to see hybrid actively
participating in pvp.
Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#662 - 2011-11-02 06:27:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kumq uat
How can you people not think they need a boost in damage when AC's almost equal them and have much greater range, flexibility, and the option to choose what kind of damage you do? You afraid of having your face melted because you fly like idiots and may not be able to escape if you get in a Gallente death zone?

Sure blasters used to be awesome, back when webs actually held you down and ships didn't get boosts to EHP and didn't have rigs to boost EHP even more and other weapon systems did not do as much damage and ships like the Thorax could launch 7!!!!!! heavy drones!. It is time to make Gallente FEARED again. No range bonuses or this speedy Gallente crap. Just give them pure DPS power and ungodly tracking in their zone and blasters will become what they were again. TOTALHELLDEATH to anyone who gets in range. If Gallente have to get in range of all the neuts, nos, webs, and all dps then give them something that is WORTH IT!


And yes, I have been around and know how to fly pretty much everything in the game. My thoughts are more valuable than yours. Lemme know when you have been playing for six years.

Skills
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#663 - 2011-11-02 06:29:58 UTC
Celebris Nexterra wrote:
Hmmm, I am now motivated to make a stupidly simple analogy for what you're saying about blasters vs all other weapon types.

You give a person a shotgun (Gallente ship with blasters), you give the opponent an assault rifle (Minmatar ship with AC's). You place these two people in an open field at 50m (any place in space where the ships do not land on top of each other). The person with the shotgun is actually Aretha Franklin, while the person with the AR is Usain Bolt. Usain is able to run at full speed while shooting his gun and never missing, while Aretha "runs" while shooting and never hitting. Sure, it'll take a few hits before she goes down, but she has absolutely no chance to ever hit her target. NOW BOOST HER SPEED BY 10%!!!!

And you tell me this is fair?


This post is win!

Kudos. From hence and anon I shall picture my Brutix nailing its MWD and charging offf into space with mammaries bouncing and shotgun in hand.

R E S P E C T. CCP please help Aretha. That Usain Bolt guy is due for an ass whippin.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#664 - 2011-11-02 06:42:43 UTC
BTW, one possible and more finely balanced version of the additional blaster boost would be along the lines of

5-10% +DPS for small blasters (they're best off atm, afterall)

20-30% +DPS for medium blasters (worst off atm)

10-20% +DPS fo large blasters (though lol battleships)


...And/or a massive overload damage boost. ;)
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#665 - 2011-11-02 06:46:38 UTC
These are really good starts. Now, two more would fix the problem:

1. Give all Gallente ships their 'class equivilant' plate as internal armor, but reduce some of the mass penalty. E.g. Frigs get an 'internal' 100 or 200mm RTP. Destroyers would get a 400mm, cruisers/BC an 800mm and BS get 1600mm RTP. It would obviate the need to use a lowslot plate to have a decent tank. More damage and speed mods would be used...

2. Give the Gallente ships the ability to use a special-gallente-only web drone. A flight of 5 lights would do a 50% speed reduction. That is the gallente 'anti-kite defense'.

Your hybrid changes fix one part of the problem. These changes fix the other two. 1.No more having to load a speed killing Plate for a tank, and 2. Lets Gallente have a real chance to catch kiting ships that are within their drone control range.

Nom nom nom.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Sigras
Conglomo
#666 - 2011-11-02 07:54:27 UTC
Digital Gaidin wrote:
Or they could do what I've been saying for 2 pages now that you conveniently left off your list. Roll

We don't need *another* versatile weapons system. Artillery can't track worth hell. Autocannons are very versatile. Pulses are only good if you can use Scorch, else hope you are in blaster range. Beams and Railguns suck because they can't get the job done in real 'verse situations. Blasters currently suck but might not soon. Heavy Missiles are great if you have an army of them impacting at the same time, and are under 84km. Short range missiles are decent when used properly.


#1 you do realize EVERYONE worth mentioning can use scorch . . . the game must be balanced for the high SP players not the noobs who cant fit their ships properly.
#2 you do realize that mega pulse lasers with a 15 km optimal using conflag have more than twice the range of large neutron blasters using void right? Even if the blasters switch to null ammo they still only reach 11 km right? you realize there is a HUGE difference between 6.8 km and 15 km right?

Digital Gaidin wrote:
No one excels in the 10km and under range right now. Blaster ships don't need to be a jack of all trades (like Autocannons, T2 Pulses, or Heavy missiles), but they do need to have a purpose on the battlefield. They might not be good for all situations (few ships are, and usually only completented by support ships), but they should be damn good at something. If you are flying Gallente and need something to mission run in, either MWD after your targets and blast them or use Railguns and deal with fast movers using drones. This is the perfect opportunity for a weapon system to be designed to fill a void, and it would be a shame if it came off mediocre to appeal to the "I want this one system to do everything" crowd.


The problem isnt wanting blasters to be jack of all trades, its wanting blasters to be good at something which right now they are not. Even after the buff they're going to lack the speed to get into range . . .

the hurricane is 700 DPS pretty much always, and the brutix is 1,000 DPS pretty much never . . . which would you choose given the option?
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#667 - 2011-11-02 07:57:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sam Bowein
Some people in this thread said that hybrids currently have nothing to differentiate them from other weapon systems.

THIS is I think the knot of the problem. If hybrids are not made unique somehow, any amount of tweaking range or damage won't solve the problem.

So guys, how could we make hybrids unique ? Here are a few ideas I read:

- they make a special type of damage, always on the lower resist of the target
- shotgun effect (target area damage)
- delayed weapon damage, they shoot at he end of weapon cycle
- much higher overload effect
- damage penetration (bleed through to all HP layers)

What else ?

Personally I really like the damage type on the weakest resist, with the end of cycle damage trade-off :)
Imawuss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#668 - 2011-11-02 08:33:27 UTC
We are not caring about pve right? Just want to check.

I mean Caldari (missiles) is just ok with pvp but its God like for pvp
Amarr Lasers and Min projectiles can do well in pve but shine more in pvp.
Hybrids are the red headed step child for both pve and pvp.

The proposed changes dont change the pve aspect and only slightly help the pvp aspect while still being inferior. I mean a torp raven can still out DPS a mega with Blasters...

If the proposed changes are the best CCP can come up with fine im over it. Just give us an option to get our SP's we spent in hybrids back and problem solved.
Cpt Fina
Perkone
Caldari State
#669 - 2011-11-02 09:01:21 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I honestly don't think it matters if the immediate changes are enough or not, since I think that is a secondary concern with balancing in general. Naturally you want to hit that perfect balance on the first try, but missing the mark isn't a huge problem. It only becomes a problem, if you aren't willing to monitor the situation and be prepared to revisit the issue after a short time. What I want is for CCP to keep an eye out for how things change with the buff and be willing to do a second round of changes in a month or two after the initial buff has been released, if their design goals haven't been reached. Whatever you do don't sit around with your collective thumbs up your asses for a year or two before revisiting the issue.

PS. +1 to the idea of creating a clear and distinctive role for blasters and rails and making them excell in those roles, instead of trying to make all weapon systems similar. Every weapon system should have some clear advantage over the others.



Most sensible post in the thread.

1. Balancing should be a process, not a single event.
2. Iron out roles / traits for each race
Firartix
Parallax Heavy Industries
#670 - 2011-11-02 09:01:39 UTC
Hey.
Stupid question : the devblog talks about a "reduction of the inertia modifier", which is indeed a boost.

Now, if you look @ the leaked change list everyone got around (http://pastebin.com/TkY3rY6q random linkage)
what i see instead is an increase of the inertia modifier (so it's a nerf)

.. ... what the hell o_o?
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#671 - 2011-11-02 09:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
Digital Gaidin wrote:
I can't tell if you guys are serious or if the trolls have arrived?


Well considering the completely contradictory nature of Gallente that CCP has tried to push for years, its no wonder that the discussion gets weird.

I will recap what I see as the crux problems:
- rails need damage.
- blasters need range
- gallente ships need mobility
- hybrid t2 ammo needs tracking penalty removed

No matter what you do to 'fix' the problems, were not getting around the fact that the changes make gallente move towards minmatar. Thats no big news, since Gallente are fail at a conceptual level. CCP must debunk the whole concept behind gallente to make it work. Complete revamp would be needed.

You can buff gallente speed and agility all you want, but unless you actually make them faster than minmatar, minmatar ships will still remain superior simply because they have superior range in their guns along with basically equal damage.
Fixing Gallente, IT IS UNPOSIBUL

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
XIRUSPHERE
In Bacon We Trust
#672 - 2011-11-02 09:56:49 UTC
Would love to be positive but seriously guys you're dropping the ball with gallente again. Blasters need a role and need to shine at it, you boosted EHP, you gave us rigs, you fixed lasers and boosted the damage of projectiles. Blasters need more damage, not a smudge, they need to be feared if you get into a gallente kill zone. Please do something to make them shine and have a role again. It's a nice first shot but that was way over the bow.

The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times.

One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear.
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#673 - 2011-11-02 10:30:03 UTC
Dear DEV.

Which ship would you choose.

Cane with 700dps that can applied constantly or brutix with 1000 dps can pretty much can never be applied ?
Jazzmyn
Finnish Legion
#674 - 2011-11-02 10:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jazzmyn
How about getting rid of T2 missile signature / explosion radius penalties as well?

I think there was a rumor about T2 missiles getting changed aswell, but thats doesnt seem to be the case. Me sad. Sad

Fight ! Fight ! Never surrender, never surrender !
Hex'Caliber
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#675 - 2011-11-02 10:49:08 UTC
Right now I would rather see Gallente drop Hybrids altogether if this is CCP's idea of fixing them.

Remove the ability of other race ships to use anything BUT med/light combat drones and give Gallente the whole bloody lot, with ship bonuses to drone damage, larger drone bays, drone ewar, repair drones etc and, have drone dmg on Gallente ships compare to other race turrets and slow them down some. Finally let everyone reassign all sp spent in turrets and drones, to prevent all the ensuing QQ.

Seriously, anything else at this point is simply shuffling numbers about to create voids for hybrids to fill; let Gallente become THE drone race. Hell I am not a great drone user even though I rolled Gallente, but if it's the only way to define the race instead of being the race that covers minis & amarr blind spots, so be it.

Its time step up and stop the mess that is Gallente, it is long over due; It would re define the race, giving Gallente a place in the scheme of things, while not stepping on toes or becoming over powered requiring a nerf 6 months later. Sure carriers would need a rethink and a shuffle about, but frankly that’s no bad thing; hell while I think about it why not drop other race carriers and stop Gallente using Dreads.

Failing that, let everyone reassign all their sp so we can drop Gallente once and for all, and get on with Mini, Cald, and Amar.
Nimusa
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#676 - 2011-11-02 10:57:32 UTC
i dont get it , after that blog post by hillmar about you guys not listening enough to the community you give us this.

Do you even play your own game? or read your own forums?
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#677 - 2011-11-02 10:58:20 UTC
Thanks for looking at this balancing CCP Tallest.

TL;DR Rokh and Eagle don't do enough DPS with Blasters

People have already commented on the Rokh and Eagle. I would like to second that request for both to get looked at as individual ship balances.

Given that both of these ships can fit reasonable shield buffer setups for fleets (still not as good as armor buffer however), they could - and frankly should, have a role that allows them to be used with closer range setups and blasters, but they just don't output enough DPS to warrant using them in a shield fleet setup at present, and both remain the ship everyone laughs at if you ever turn up in one, which is a real shame.

I would still like to see both these ships get a DPS increase for Blasters. The only time I have seen an Eagle in real use was casual gate camping in HED and popping pods from range.

Also, the Rokh is quite small in the game for a battleship - indeed, I suspect the new Caldari Battlecruiser (Ascog) will be larger than the Rokh now, so a slightly larger Rokh model would be appreciated too.

Many thanks CCP

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
#678 - 2011-11-02 11:01:10 UTC
What about giving originally intended blaster boats a bonus to mwd, and maybe ab, of lets say 25% speed under overload? The ship wouldn't usually be faster than a Minnie ship, but it could be at some moments... What do you say?
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
#679 - 2011-11-02 11:05:50 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Thanks for looking at this balancing CCP Tallest.

TL;DR Rokh and Eagle don't do enough DPS with Blasters

People have already commented on the Rokh and Eagle. I would like to second that request for both to get looked at as individual ship balances.

Given that both of these ships can fit reasonable shield buffer setups for fleets (still not as good as armor buffer however), they could - and frankly should, have a role that allows them to be used with closer range setups and blasters, but they just don't output enough DPS to warrant using them in a shield fleet setup at present, and both remain the ship everyone laughs at if you ever turn up in one, which is a real shame.

I would still like to see both these ships get a DPS increase for Blasters. The only time I have seen an Eagle in real use was casual gate camping in HED and popping pods from range.

Also, the Rokh is quite small in the game for a battleship - indeed, I suspect the new Caldari Battlecruiser (Ascog) will be larger than the Rokh now, so a slightly larger Rokh model would be appreciated too.

Many thanks CCP


I love the Rokh, but I always felt that it needed a boost to its damage. With the limit to locking range and on grid scanning as it is now, its main advantage (range) is not a big thing anymore.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#680 - 2011-11-02 11:10:41 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:

But dont forget the most important things. If CCP dont fix blasters just using this weak fix, they wont change them again for other 3 years long. We waiting so much time for fix, and we need a real solution for blaster fix or we would be waiting for another 3 years.
Keep them under pressure. Give to CCP good and useable ideas or they wont fix fine the hybrid guns with this halfway measures.

This is an unsubstantiated statement. Have you been told by CCP that no further adjustments will be made to hybrids for another 3 years?

No, I didn't think so.

Please get your head out of the past and stop judging CCP on what they did or did not do before.

CCP has demonstrated its renewed commitment to to FiS and esp. to addressing long outstanding issues, while downsizing efforts/resources for WiS. This is not just idle rumor or speculation - the publicly released Winter Expansion plans, followup devblogs, and company restructuring completely support this change in CCP's attitude/direction.

Back on topic, we don't need yet another one-time fix, such as the mothership->supercarrier "fix". We need an ongoing cycle of tweaks to stats, in-game evaluation and feedback - in order to achieve an actual balance of various complex game elements and mechanics.