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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Lord Timelord
GETCO
#641 - 2011-11-01 23:31:53 UTC
The TIME has come once and for all for Blaster Boats to get the Bonus that they NEED to counter the webbing, warp scrambler, and other races ammo range issues...

- Gallente Blaster Boat Racial Bonus... MWD SHUTDOWN IMMUNITY to Warp Scramblers!

They would still be 'pointed' by the Warp Scrambler (unable to warp out), BUT their MWD would continue to function! This is a fair trade due to the increased sig radius of getting up close and personal and taking damage to close to weapons range, and KEEP in weapons range!

RP of this is that the Gallente managed to reverse engineer how MWD's didn't work in the Deadspace Pockets, and applied this strategic advantage to their 'front line' war vessels.

THAT my friends... would GREATLY change the battlefield IMHO! Twisted
draconothese
Independant Celestial Enterprises
#642 - 2011-11-01 23:42:10 UTC  |  Edited by: draconothese
i like that idea of microwarp drives are immune to slowing but lets take that one step more and say they will have a weakness and that would be Heavy Interdictors that would allow it to be balanced means you dont screw with gallente unless you fit a heavy interdictor
Lord Timelord
GETCO
#643 - 2011-11-01 23:50:14 UTC
draconothese wrote:
i like that idea of microwarp drives are immune to slowing but lets take that one step more and say they will have a weakness and that would be Heavy Interdictors that would allow it to be balanced means you dont screw with gallente unless you fit a heavy interdictor


Good Idea! Add a 3rd Script for the Heavy Dictor's Infinite Point Disruptor that can disable a MWD! Attention
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#644 - 2011-11-02 00:05:59 UTC
I can't tell if you guys are serious or if the trolls have arrived?
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#645 - 2011-11-02 00:11:22 UTC
Lord Timelord wrote:

- Gallente Blaster Boat Racial Bonus... MWD SHUTDOWN IMMUNITY to Warp Scramblers!
Twisted


This is too much, if you loose the battle you just activate MWD, fly out of scrambler range and warp of...
But what about to make the MWD only 70%-80% immune so you still can fly a bit faster but not too fast?
Or what about a new module that allowes you to "jump" for 10 Km every 120 seconds? Something like this could work and you could balance the effect through range, cooldown timer and cap usage so people don't jump all the time.
Lord Timelord
GETCO
#646 - 2011-11-02 00:11:53 UTC
Digital Gaidin wrote:
I can't tell if you guys are serious or if the trolls have arrived?


Dead Serious. I've played Gallente for 7 1/2 years. The whole 'double barrel shotgun' blaster playstyle needs some serious loving. The Proposed Changes are not enough... there needs to be an additional "X Factor" to make the playstyle shine differently from the others.
Kosta Shadow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#647 - 2011-11-02 00:12:55 UTC
First is a pity that no Russian forum. Now for hybrid instruments, I suggest to do with ammunition as EM. Kinetic. Termal. Explosive Another thing I would add that all the ships Galente bonuses to drones
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#648 - 2011-11-02 00:14:02 UTC
Digital Gaidin wrote:
I can't tell if you guys are serious or if the trolls have arrived?



Short ammo range buff, hail.

How much do you think the Cynabal will like it? -and if it's a troll buff comming soon then I just got owned.

Sry forgot about hybrids.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#649 - 2011-11-02 00:14:19 UTC
lol, ganked, double post, and so on...
Lord Timelord
GETCO
#650 - 2011-11-02 00:14:51 UTC
Hamox wrote:
Lord Timelord wrote:

- Gallente Blaster Boat Racial Bonus... MWD SHUTDOWN IMMUNITY to Warp Scramblers!
Twisted


This is too much, if you loose the battle you just activate MWD, fly out of scrambler range and warp of...
But what about to make the MWD only 70%-80% immune so you still can fly a bit faster but not too fast?
Or what about a new module that allows you to "jump" for 10 Km every 120 seconds? Something like this could work and you could balance the effect through range, cooldown timer and cap usage so people don't jump all the time.


Webbers would still have an effect on the ship, slowing down it's top speed. Remember that if the blaster boat is in webber range, so is the target ship. If the Blaster Boat wants to disengage from the fight, it's going to be more difficult while still webbed.
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#651 - 2011-11-02 00:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
Lord Timelord wrote:
Digital Gaidin wrote:
I can't tell if you guys are serious or if the trolls have arrived?


Dead Serious. I've played Gallente for 7 1/2 years. The whole 'double barrel shotgun' blaster playstyle needs some serious loving. The Proposed Changes are not enough... there needs to be an additional "X Factor" to make the playstyle shine differently from the others.

So you think the way to fix Gallente is to completely give up on Hybrids, give a racial ability to all Gallente ships, and THEN they'll be fixed? What is to stop me from saying screw it to blasters, putting Projectiles on my scram immune ships, and doing whatever the hell I like as nothing can slow me down (you web me, I web you, and burn out of your web range)?

There's 2 good ways to fix blasters, one not-so-good-but-CCP-style way to fix blasters, and a whole bunch of ideas that will never, ever get implemented.
Good: Give them a niche that doesn't ruin other ships/weapons
Mediocre: Buff them to be better but still inferior
Worse: Make them superior to an existing weapon system that works in the same ranges, but is just better, introducing FOTM
... and then everything else that would require far more work than the timeframe to next expansion has to offer, and would introduce game breaking mechanisms that would be exploited...
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#652 - 2011-11-02 00:28:52 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:

I really hope someday you try to fly minmatar ships of all kinds to figure out by yourself how screwed blaster and rail ships are stuck in a very small niche, so tiny it doesn't ever happen in other places than dreams or in forum posts.

Boo, hoo. I guess you found me out. My tears are flowing.

Anyhoo.... back on topic....

Yeah, blaster and rail ships are in a niche. Autocannon ships are the FOTM. No argurment from me.

Is it absolutely impossible to win with a Gallente blaster boat or rail ship, in any PvP or PvE situation, irregardless of the circumstances? I don't think so, and I tried to explain wny, but If your answer is always "absolutely, effing yes", then the fix is simple - remove blasters and rails from the game, as well as the offending Gallente ships. Ok, done. Next problem.

If you are now saying, "Now wait a minute,dammit, that's not what I said - I just want to buff blasters and rail guns so they do more damage, with faster tracking and more range, and with T2 ammo which is as good as T2 projectiles in all aspects, and I want to make the Gallente ships fast enough to always catch the Minmatar ships in a straight run", then what you really want are autocannons, artillery, lasers, and Minmatar ships - and we've already got them in the game. So, let's just fly Minmatar and Amarr ships - and not fly Gallente ships (except maybe the drone boats). Ok, done. Next problem.


Nope, i´m not saying "Now wait a minute..." because taking blasters and rails out of the game is exactly my proposal, Gallente and Caldari ships are getting lasers or projectiles instead (their stats of course adapted to the new weapons). As you said, problem solved.

The only other alternative would be reworking all turret systems completely, mixing the characteristics new... but that is apparently too much work (and too much whiningTwistedTwistedTwisted) for ccp.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
StuRyan
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#653 - 2011-11-02 00:29:19 UTC
onom where is my freakin megathron.....


Thanks for listening.....

looking forward to testing this changes out.
Lord Timelord
GETCO
#654 - 2011-11-02 00:36:39 UTC
Digital Gaidin wrote:
Lord Timelord wrote:
Digital Gaidin wrote:
I can't tell if you guys are serious or if the trolls have arrived?


Dead Serious. I've played Gallente for 7 1/2 years. The whole 'double barrel shotgun' blaster playstyle needs some serious loving. The Proposed Changes are not enough... there needs to be an additional "X Factor" to make the playstyle shine differently from the others.

So you think the way to fix Gallente is to completely give up on Hybrids, give a racial ability to all Gallente ships, and THEN they'll be fixed? What is to stop me from saying screw it to blasters, putting Projectiles on my scram immune ships, and doing whatever the hell I like as nothing can slow me down (you web me, I web you, and burn out of your web range)?

There's 2 good ways to fix blasters, one not-so-good-but-CCP-style way to fix blasters, and a whole bunch of ideas that will never, ever get implemented.
Good: Give them a niche that doesn't ruin other ships/weapons
Mediocre: Buff them to be better but still inferior
Worse: Make them superior to an existing weapon system that works in the same ranges, but is just better, introducing FOTM
... and then everything else that would require far more work than the timeframe to next expansion has to offer, and would introduce game breaking mechanisms that would be exploited...


You have a good point that players could fit autocannons or other turret based weapons on such a ship, using it's bonus for different weapons systems. I'm not sure if it's within CCP's programming abilities or not, but could the bounsed ships be programmed to ONLY fit Railguns and Blasters? Kind of like how turrets won't fit on an all missile boat, etc?

I'm brainstorming atm trying to find a way to give the Gallente Blaster Boats what they first had back when this game was started. Good Damage, Good Ramming Capability to keep ships from warping out, and a 'highly active, hands on playstyle' that they used to be.

For Example, it was common long ago to run mostly 'active' modules on blaster boats, with active tanking mods. Almost all of your High/Mid/Low Slots were utilizing active modules. This required a high degree of skill in, cap management, module activation on/off to manage cap (like cap injectors), and now also includes using Heat and Combat Boosters into the mix.

Now most ships gimp their speed/agility with EHP Plated Fits. Maybe the ship could provide a bonus reducing mass to armor plates to keep it's speed up instead? Between all of us we can hammer out a good solution... we just need to keep throwing ideas around! Blink
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
#655 - 2011-11-02 01:23:25 UTC
CCP Guard why do you have a hand-grenade in the dev-log videos?

Also nice work on the hybrid and tech II ammo balancing.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#656 - 2011-11-02 01:38:48 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Option A sounds easier, but, frankly, the damage boost that would be needed to make blasters worth using, given the very short range and necessity and difficulty of going into web range and bearing in mind that Pulse and ACs would still be able to apply very good DPS at blasters' optimal, would be about 30-50%. That's game-breaking, it's just stupid.



why not cutting range down even further? in my view (L) blasters, even with null loaded shouldn't be able to do jack all damage at 15km, but facemelt everything below that border. If that means that the weapons lose their falloff of a chunk of their optimal, then so be it. atm their damage is simply pitiful, and I think I can talk for quite some people if you do exactly this, coupled of course, with a nudge on the mobility, you can (hopefully) fix blasters.
As I've said time and time again in all this mess, blasters, and only blasters, should be the gun that solely relies on the ship for damage projection, having few, if at all, self ability to project their (atm not) ungodly facemelting damage.

boost damage massively, boost tracking moderately, and cut down range accordingly to keep things balanced, while increasing gallente blaster boats mobility.

Gypsio III wrote:
We'll just get some half-arsed "fix" similar to the stuff in the blevdog that completely fails to give blasterboats a reason to exist.



and here's something I agree with you.Ugh

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Ruri Atreides
Halliburton Heavy Industries
#657 - 2011-11-02 01:57:22 UTC
Charles Edisson wrote:
Much as I love these new changes (I have 2 Gallante toons) CCP need to do something about their insider trading. I love the fact that somehow from a new Dev blog today all the ammo types that have just had boosts anounced were bought up off the market 7 days ago. Players that are involved in the balancing/development ideas should not be able to make huge sums of isk out of inside trading.



People have been speculating on these changes for a lonnnnnng time. Get with the program and maybe you will make some isk too.
cBOLTSON
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#658 - 2011-11-02 02:01:34 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Tristan North wrote:
Please specify in that blog if it is an Agility Nerf or Agility Buff.
Most players are confused about it.


The agility change is an agility buff. The ships will be more agile.



This has me pleased :)
Im not an expert but overall these changes seem fair, at least. Can't wait to test it all.

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#659 - 2011-11-02 02:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Lekgoa wrote:
Enyo with neutrons + NULL: 212 gun dps @ 4.2+3.9
Wolf with 200's + HAIL: 286 gun dps @ 0.8+9

It's the same story across all gun sizes. With these changes, Minmatar's close-range high-dps ammo outranges Gallente's long-range low-dps ammo. Matari ships are still significantly faster than their Gallente counterparts (Wolf 987 m/s, Enyo around 900 m/s post-patch). Having flown exclusively Gallente since I started this game 18 months ago, I'm comfortable saying that this is a HUGE problem. The tracking and fitting buffs are great, but they don't address the key issue of range.

My suggestion: you're buffing T2 ammo anyway. BUFF NULL AND VOID. Null should outrange Hail by a decent margin if you want any sort of balance. Give it +50% optimal and falloff. That won't be op simply because Null's damage is pretty mediocre. Void is point-blank-range ammo, so it should have a bit more dps (10%) and better tracking (10-15% penalty rather than 25%). The effect: blaster boats dominate at close range and aren't completely impotent at mid ranges. This still wouldn't be an insta-win button because the hulls are still pretty slow, allowing other ships to pull out of Void range.

I honestly think hybrids, Gallente hulls, and armor tanking in general could all use a serious overhaul. Barring that, ammo changes seem like the simplest and most effective solution. And gimme my T2 drone mods!


Man, null vs hail ???
Maybe you need to compare void vs hail. Null vs barrage. Do not create false comparison with other type ammos.

Enyo with neutrons + void + overheat 312dps+20dps from drone=332 dps
Wolf with 200's + HAIL+overheat: 286 gun dps (with your numbers) but just that 240 without overheat with one gyro and full lvl5 skill
More one thing, with overheat the Wolf's damage is just 276 and not 286dps.

One other thing what i dont like it, overheated ships compare with not overheated ship. Because you wrote overheated Wolf damage (276dps) against enyo without overheat (213dps). So you just try to cheating when you try to tell to forum your truth.
Overheated short range ammo vs not overheated long range ammo comparison is fail.

Wolf with 200's + Barrage 171dps vs Enyo S blaster with long range ammo (null) 213 dps+20 drone dps

I wrote before, the blaster damages is fine. Not need to change them. Their ships need other fixes , web range bonuses or scram range bonuses, optimal or falloff bonuses (but stupid players always cry a river when someone talk about blaster optimal or falloff range boost). Blasters need +50% optimal and 25% falloff changes over this winter patch blaster fixes if CCP dont want to change the gallentean web and scram range bonuses.

Other bad changes, they will use too small rail damage bonus changes. (they need +10% rof changes too, because bad alpha)
And need other solution for CPU changes, because 1-2-4 CPU changes wont be enough, because smaller Weapon upgrades bonus.

But dont forget the most important things. If CCP dont fix blasters just using this weak fix, they wont change them again for other 3 years long. We waiting so much time for fix, and we need a real solution for blaster fix or we would be waiting for another 3 years.
Keep them under pressure. Give to CCP good and useable ideas or they wont fix fine the hybrid guns with this halfway measures.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#660 - 2011-11-02 06:04:19 UTC
The guns do need bigger changes as do the ships.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas!