These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Attack Battlecruiser balance pass

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#321 - 2013-04-05 18:59:33 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
In fact, lasers are plain better than projectile weapons (even at close range, even quad light beam are better than 220mm AC). And laser are better than all other weapons at around 5 or 6 km IIRC (for small & medium weapons at least). They have quite a big superiority range in fact, the only problem being the ability to use this superiority range.

And most of the time, what amarr ships lack in dps, they get it in tank.

In the end, I think a TD would serve the amarr way better than a web, because that would give them the tracking superiority they lack in duel.


....

I don't even know how to respond to that..



maybe because mathematically he IS right

Put Mega Pulses and 800mm AC on a 2 rocks and fire at each other and guess wich one will win?



Yes and conflag/void/hail are the best ammo types for ALL situation because they get the BEZT DPZ! Looking at EFT numbers is pointless if you don't understand them.

EDIT: also large (pulse, beams are still terrible on everything other than nightmares) lasers are good because battleships have half a billion slots/fittings to fit stuff to compensate for their weakness. Medium and small? not so much



Not based on EFT, based on my experience fighting with both ammar , minmatar battleships.

Amarr battleships ARE superior.. the problem is.. currently Battleships have not much use...



Amarr BS's are great for blobbing because scorch is silly. Other then that lasers are not very good.

This is very very much off topic though

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#322 - 2013-04-06 00:52:12 UTC
Well when it comes to solo and small scale warfare. I would say the Dominix is the most effective and I would add 1 more Gallente, 1 Minmatar, and 1 Caldari battleship to that list.

When it comes to large scale engagements though. I would use a Rokh or Abaddon.


- Killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Pierre Pullaut
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2013-04-07 01:37:47 UTC
Hello Everybody,

Just watched my Drake from close range and found a little thing that should be fixed on the Battle Cruisers before we talk about new ships:

Obsolete hardpoints should be removed!

Drake for example has only 7 Highslots left but there are still 8 hardpoints...

@ CCP Rise: Sorry for the off topic but I just could not hold it... Lol
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#324 - 2013-04-08 10:29:16 UTC
so CCP doesn't want to get into a debate about the roles, strength and balance of the former tier 3 battlecruisers?
I guess we'll have to wait for christmas to get a proper small scale game play that doesn't involve having "attack battlecruisers" and/or T3 ships...

if you get a tackle on almost anything you just need to warp one of those in @ 30-40km and press the I-win button as long you can avoid frigates getting close to you. the dps is still the largest sub capital dps coming from main weaponry and they're still faster than most ships so if you lose the battle it isn't the attack battlecruiser going down...
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#325 - 2013-04-09 00:02:15 UTC
The Tornado is heavier than the Caldari and Amarr ships?? Can someone please explain to me the new Minmatar design philosophy here? It seems increased signature, mass and reduced speed is the new order of the day for minmatar ships.
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#326 - 2013-04-09 08:52:53 UTC
According to the proposed BS changes i want to say - nerf ABC
Teh Gaunt
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#327 - 2013-04-09 10:02:07 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
The Tornado is heavier than the Caldari and Amarr ships?? Can someone please explain to me the new Minmatar design philosophy here? It seems increased signature, mass and reduced speed is the new order of the day for minmatar ships.


I totally agree to this.
In naga-dominating-nowadays tornado aglity should have not change
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#328 - 2013-04-09 13:05:44 UTC
hello there CCP Rise; nice to have you here Cool

now, i was thinking how surprised i was when this tier 3 bcs where introduced in game about the fact that they can fit the largest tier guns with any if one fitting mods;

so, an ideea will be to tweak them a bit ( you are doing the bs rebalance also around this time), so they cannnot fit the highest tiers of large guns;
atm, noone is using anyting but the highest tiers guns (maybe around 90%), so this will create a nice spot for the lowest guns tiers, and theyr dmg will be under bs lvl not over like it is right now. also the prices omg...

just an ideea Oops
Andre Coeurl
Embers Children
#329 - 2013-04-10 10:54:19 UTC
Well the align time or mass increase is somewhat more than needed, bt overall the nerf is still bearable. For sure the proposed changes coupled with TE nerf it will be a hard blow to the ABC playstyle, especially shield-based, I hope devs will monitor SiSi test matches and possibly play there extensively before going on with everything.
I think you shoud try to do a lot of matches in ABCs against other ship classes before doing any changes, because one thing is to see there are many fleets now using ABCs to blob anything in sight on Tranq, another is to see how well a ship performs against other ship types in 1v1 matches.
The point is, any ship which is better at mid/long range damage projection and has a chance to escape tackling and/or relocate will be a favourite for big mobile gangs, as well as any ship with flexible mid-range damage and a chance to be repped in time will be a favourite for big combat gangs. This explains why shield fit ABCs plus some Alpha ships like Maelstroms are such mainstay of mobile gangs, and why Abaddons and AHAC T3 are a mainstay of brawler gangs.
If CCP hopes to add dversity by nerfing those, it's completely hopless. My personal advice is to give other ships some good chance to be chosen by making them better than they are now, because some ships currently are completely CRAP in fleets, and the changes I've seen proposed won't make them any better in the most common scenatios.


Aside from that, I just have the impression a lot of the people who scream for further nerfing to ABCs don't really know them, apart from being shot at by them occasionally and raging as a consequence.
First, remember that the TE incoming nerf will reduce the actual range and falloff of real fits, forcing ABCs to get closer to their target, which, added to their increased lock time, align time or mass, means they'll be a lot more vulnerable to aggressive tackling by smaller, more agile ships, or to simply lose a chance to shoot anyone.
As some of you may know, once a frigate or a fast cruiser, or even a tanky BC fully tackles an ABC, the ABC is dead.
ABCs simply have no tank to speak of. But you know that, right?

So what is the problem?
You're afraid that your frigate or cruiser will be blasted by a Talos? The question is, you really think you won't be able to warp away while the ABC lands, locks you and starts shooting you? Especially since it often stay out of point range? And if he is in point range you just have to run towards a 7km orbit and chew it away. You can't do it? Learn to fly frigates then.
Scared of being killed in your CBC? Well, that may well happen, but still an ABC is more expensive and it is an attack ship, so it should be winning, unless: you just warp out since he's kiting and happens to end out of point range, you have a fast BC and know how to use overheat+orbit sling and scram/web him, you have drones and a tank and kill him just by outlasting him.
You don't want your BS to die to an ABC? Well, just fit it for PVP, you know. An heavy neut will stop it dead if it gets to point range, and you should have at least the tracking to take care of close orbiting CBCs so you should be able to put some hurt of it as it kites, otherwise you'll just die as easily against any CBC. Oh, and did you actually fit a tank? that helps you know...

It seems that people is so afraid of ABCs since they simply don't happen to fight them with PVP fits, and they get mad when a gang of 3 or more T3s kills them... well, they would die as well against 3 AFs, or any other 3 ships I guess. 3 ABC just kill them faster, but taken as a single ship they're not OP, they're simply glass cannons.
Learn to use your ships before screaming for nerfs.
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#330 - 2013-04-10 11:15:53 UTC
remove also the drone on the talos.

They make already enough dps with a good tracking.

Dairokuten Maoh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#331 - 2013-04-10 20:20:10 UTC
I used to believe the amount of ships involved in a fight is not the absolute factor that determines the outcome but also the skill and tactics of player with the right ship too. But this is gonna make solo pvp much more challenging as it already is.
Have you ccp considered circumstances that involves more tactics than numbers in the fight?
Slowing the talos and Tornado makes them useless in solo pvp, because as of right now they are already slower than a lot of ships that can deliver damage at a similar range. If you slow them down even more, in the situation that I am outnumbered, out-dps, I need to rely on that speed to stay on field.

Taking away those attribute that defines a battlecruiser does not balance the game in anyway besides shaping eve into a game that blobs always wins. One less fun ship to pvp in, more blobs on battlefield. The ship itself might be a good balance. But if you look at a greater picture, the game becomes unbalanced as fewer ships can counter blobs

余の前に人は無く、余の後にも人は無し Before me, nobody stands. Behind me, nobody stood.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#332 - 2013-04-10 21:12:59 UTC
Dairokuten Maoh wrote:
I used to believe the amount of ships involved in a fight is not the absolute factor that determines the outcome but also the skill and tactics of player with the right ship too. But this is gonna make solo pvp much more challenging as it already is.
Have you ccp considered circumstances that involves more tactics than numbers in the fight?
Slowing the talos and Tornado makes them useless in solo pvp, because as of right now they are already slower than a lot of ships that can deliver damage at a similar range. If you slow them down even more, in the situation that I am outnumbered, out-dps, I need to rely on that speed to stay on field.

Taking away those attribute that defines a battlecruiser does not balance the game in anyway besides shaping eve into a game that blobs always wins. One less fun ship to pvp in, more blobs on battlefield. The ship itself might be a good balance. But if you look at a greater picture, the game becomes unbalanced as fewer ships can counter blobs


Honestly curious, what ships are currently out there that are faster than a Talos/Tornado and deliver the same damage at the same range?

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Dairokuten Maoh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#333 - 2013-04-10 22:55:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Dairokuten Maoh
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
Dairokuten Maoh wrote:
I used to believe the amount of ships involved in a fight is not the absolute factor that determines the outcome but also the skill and tactics of player with the right ship too. But this is gonna make solo pvp much more challenging as it already is.
Have you ccp considered circumstances that involves more tactics than numbers in the fight?
Slowing the talos and Tornado makes them useless in solo pvp, because as of right now they are already slower than a lot of ships that can deliver damage at a similar range. If you slow them down even more, in the situation that I am outnumbered, out-dps, I need to rely on that speed to stay on field.

Taking away those attribute that defines a battlecruiser does not balance the game in anyway besides shaping eve into a game that blobs always wins. One less fun ship to pvp in, more blobs on battlefield. The ship itself might be a good balance. But if you look at a greater picture, the game becomes unbalanced as fewer ships can counter blobs


Honestly curious, what ships are currently out there that are faster than a Talos/Tornado and deliver the same damage at the same range?


First, I said similar range. Now here are some nice ships to counter them.

-Vagabond, 2500+- m/s 550 dps up to 36km, high resist tank and low sig radius
-Zealot, 1500 +- m/s 550+ dps up to 56km, high resist tank and low sig radius
-Deimos 1800 +- m/s 500+ dps up to 24km, high resist tank and low sig radius
-Tengu, 1800+- m/s 600+ dps up to 45km, high resist tank, low sig radius due to 100mm after burner
-Loki, 1800+- m/s 400 - 500 dps up to 24km, 35 - 45km web, high resist tank.
-Machariel, 1800+- m/s (deadspace fit with implant gets up to 4k+- m/s overheated), 1000+ dps up to 59km with Republic fleet EMP, active shield tank.
-Most of assault frigate and faction frigate (dramiel, navy slicer, daredevil, jaguar, wolf...etc and more) with scram.
-sentry fit drone ships
-many many many more ships, too much to list

Tornados/Talos is a very fast ship for its dps and range, but they are not unbeatable, in fact they are very vulernable to many ships in 1v1 or fleet battle. The only characteristics that redeems the Tornado/Talos is its speed and that's why not many pilots out there uses naga or oracle to solo.

When fighting outnumbered, the speed is critical to maintain control of the field. A tornado pilot will need to burn out of hostile fleet's logistics/ecm range in order to return fire. If it gets captured before then, the fight is over. Taking the speed away from these two ships insures that they don't get away from blob's logistics and ecm range. Thus effectively taking one more ship out of the game that had a chance to fight outnumbered.

余の前に人は無く、余の後にも人は無し Before me, nobody stands. Behind me, nobody stood.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#334 - 2013-04-10 23:04:56 UTC
Dairokuten Maoh wrote:
I used to believe the amount of ships involved in a fight is not the absolute factor that determines the outcome but also the skill and tactics of player with the right ship too. But this is gonna make solo pvp much more challenging as it already is.
Have you ccp considered circumstances that involves more tactics than numbers in the fight?
Slowing the talos and Tornado makes them useless in solo pvp, because as of right now they are already slower than a lot of ships that can deliver damage at a similar range. If you slow them down even more, in the situation that I am outnumbered, out-dps, I need to rely on that speed to stay on field.

Taking away those attribute that defines a battlecruiser does not balance the game in anyway besides shaping eve into a game that blobs always wins. One less fun ship to pvp in, more blobs on battlefield. The ship itself might be a good balance. But if you look at a greater picture, the game becomes unbalanced as fewer ships can counter blobs

They were not meant for solo PvP.
Dairokuten Maoh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#335 - 2013-04-10 23:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Dairokuten Maoh
Marlona Sky wrote:
Dairokuten Maoh wrote:
I used to believe the amount of ships involved in a fight is not the absolute factor that determines the outcome but also the skill and tactics of player with the right ship too. But this is gonna make solo pvp much more challenging as it already is.
Have you ccp considered circumstances that involves more tactics than numbers in the fight?
Slowing the talos and Tornado makes them useless in solo pvp, because as of right now they are already slower than a lot of ships that can deliver damage at a similar range. If you slow them down even more, in the situation that I am outnumbered, out-dps, I need to rely on that speed to stay on field.

Taking away those attribute that defines a battlecruiser does not balance the game in anyway besides shaping eve into a game that blobs always wins. One less fun ship to pvp in, more blobs on battlefield. The ship itself might be a good balance. But if you look at a greater picture, the game becomes unbalanced as fewer ships can counter blobs

They were not meant for solo PvP.


solo tornado vs typhoon, cane, rupture, kestral, helios:

http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16884075
video of the fight : http://youtu.be/oydKiMTz_C4

Solo tornado vs Faction fit webbing loki
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16835878

Tornado gets soloed by stealth bomber
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16348932

Solo tornado vs scram cynabal
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16696016

Solo Tornado vs 11 frig/detroyer gang
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16628958

Solo pvp is possible if you play your tactics right with a creative ship setup. Know what you can do and cannot, and you will have a better chance of survival and sometimes if you are lucky, you just might come out on top in situations like 1 vs blobs, or being outnumbered in small gang roam.

余の前に人は無く、余の後にも人は無し Before me, nobody stands. Behind me, nobody stood.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#336 - 2013-04-10 23:56:37 UTC
Dairokuten Maoh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Dairokuten Maoh wrote:
I used to believe the amount of ships involved in a fight is not the absolute factor that determines the outcome but also the skill and tactics of player with the right ship too. But this is gonna make solo pvp much more challenging as it already is.
Have you ccp considered circumstances that involves more tactics than numbers in the fight?
Slowing the talos and Tornado makes them useless in solo pvp, because as of right now they are already slower than a lot of ships that can deliver damage at a similar range. If you slow them down even more, in the situation that I am outnumbered, out-dps, I need to rely on that speed to stay on field.

Taking away those attribute that defines a battlecruiser does not balance the game in anyway besides shaping eve into a game that blobs always wins. One less fun ship to pvp in, more blobs on battlefield. The ship itself might be a good balance. But if you look at a greater picture, the game becomes unbalanced as fewer ships can counter blobs

They were not meant for solo PvP.


solo tornado vs typhoon, cane, rupture, kestral, helios:

http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16884075
video of the fight : http://youtu.be/oydKiMTz_C4

Solo tornado vs Faction fit webbing loki
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16835878

Tornado gets soloed by stealth bomber
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16348932

Solo tornado vs scram cynabal
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16696016

Solo Tornado vs 11 frig/detroyer gang
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16628958

Solo pvp is possible if you play your tactics right with a creative ship setup. Know what you can do and cannot, and you will have a better chance of survival and sometimes if you are lucky, you just might come out on top in situations like 1 vs blobs, or being outnumbered in small gang roam.

All those links seem to be broken.
Dairokuten Maoh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#337 - 2013-04-11 00:04:22 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Dairokuten Maoh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Dairokuten Maoh wrote:
I used to believe the amount of ships involved in a fight is not the absolute factor that determines the outcome but also the skill and tactics of player with the right ship too. But this is gonna make solo pvp much more challenging as it already is.
Have you ccp considered circumstances that involves more tactics than numbers in the fight?
Slowing the talos and Tornado makes them useless in solo pvp, because as of right now they are already slower than a lot of ships that can deliver damage at a similar range. If you slow them down even more, in the situation that I am outnumbered, out-dps, I need to rely on that speed to stay on field.

Taking away those attribute that defines a battlecruiser does not balance the game in anyway besides shaping eve into a game that blobs always wins. One less fun ship to pvp in, more blobs on battlefield. The ship itself might be a good balance. But if you look at a greater picture, the game becomes unbalanced as fewer ships can counter blobs

They were not meant for solo PvP.


solo tornado vs typhoon, cane, rupture, kestral, helios:

http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16884075
video of the fight : http://youtu.be/oydKiMTz_C4

Solo tornado vs Faction fit webbing loki
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16835878

Tornado gets soloed by stealth bomber
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16348932

Solo tornado vs scram cynabal
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16696016

Solo Tornado vs 11 frig/detroyer gang
http://hifi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16628958

Solo pvp is possible if you play your tactics right with a creative ship setup. Know what you can do and cannot, and you will have a better chance of survival and sometimes if you are lucky, you just might come out on top in situations like 1 vs blobs, or being outnumbered in small gang roam.

All those links seem to be broken.



I just went through all of them, they are fine. The forum just warns you it's a external link, not a broken link.

余の前に人は無く、余の後にも人は無し Before me, nobody stands. Behind me, nobody stood.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#338 - 2013-04-11 08:58:30 UTC
They all lead to: "No kill id specified."
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#339 - 2013-04-11 09:11:08 UTC
lol at countering a Talos with a frig.

Even if you do manage to catch him (Doubtful) you're dead the moment the drones get a jam cycle on you :P

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#340 - 2013-04-11 10:29:09 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Another thing that could be done. Role penalty to ALL of them: weapons resolution 150%


I would suggest all weapons sig resolution should be nerfed a little especially as ships sigs seem to be on the up there is no need for frig weapon sig resolutions to be 25 nothing is that size besides light drones


Winner. :)

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.