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[Odyssey] Attack Battlecruiser balance pass

First post
Author
Dairokuten Maoh
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#341 - 2013-04-11 17:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dairokuten Maoh
[quote=Garviel Tarrant]lol at countering a Talos with a frig.

Even if you do manage to catch him (Doubtful) you're dead the moment the drones get a jam cycle on you :

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16934731/

余の前に人は無く、余の後にも人は無し Before me, nobody stands. Behind me, nobody stood.

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#342 - 2013-04-11 17:42:00 UTC
Dairokuten Maoh wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
lol at countering a Talos with a frig.

Even if you do manage to catch him (Doubtful) you're dead the moment the drones get a jam cycle on you :P


https://zkillboard.com/detail/29270903/
https://zkillboard.com/detail/29387980/

heh how are these killmails relevant , the first even have a jammer
anyway even if it would be truely frig vs talos , even that wouldnt proove much ,
Dairokuten Maoh
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#343 - 2013-04-11 17:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dairokuten Maoh
Naomi Knight wrote:
Dairokuten Maoh wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
lol at countering a Talos with a frig.

Even if you do manage to catch him (Doubtful) you're dead the moment the drones get a jam cycle on you :P


https://zkillboard.com/detail/29270903/
https://zkillboard.com/detail/29387980/

heh how are these killmails relevant , the first even have a jammer
anyway even if it would be truely frig vs talos , even that wouldnt proove much ,


the frig indeed "countered" the talos as it stopped its mwd in the first one
the second one it countered talos by stopping its mwd while the tornado applies damage

counter doesnt mean solo
if they are so unbeatable, the talos should win, but no, it wasn't fast enough to burn out from ecm
and that was before nerf

余の前に人は無く、余の後にも人は無し Before me, nobody stands. Behind me, nobody stood.

Boris Amarr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#344 - 2013-04-13 06:10:03 UTC
After this https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224896 the capacitor use bonus for Oracle is useless. Please give any useful bonus instead of this, for example optimal bonus.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#345 - 2013-04-13 14:52:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
Dear RIse and Fozzie,

I know I've already posted on this thread saying the changes don't go far enough, but I thought you were just being gentle because you were against making big changes.

Then you went and posted the big BS changes and you've left me scratching my head.

So, I'm going to ask, what's your design goal for the Attack BC's?

I'd have understood if you'd planned to shuffle things around so that this specific line up were the DPS machines of the entire large gun using ships and if you'd made it so none of the BS's used 8 turrets or had double damage bonuses, but as it stands, you've still kept the abilty of some of the BS's to be sub cap DPS machines, so I'm confused.

Why have the changes to the Attack BC's been so small? They're hardly changing and with the BS changes, they're going to be even closer together in some respects:


  • The 'Nado is going to still outshoot the Tempest, and is going to be directly on par DPS with the Maelstrom.

  • The Talos outshoots both the Megathron and the new Hyperion, and has more effective turrets than either.

  • The Oracle does exactly the same DPS has the Abaddon, although thankfully the Apoc and new 'Geddon are different enough so they don't all clash

  • The Naga still outshoots the only Caldari turret BS in the from of the Rohk, having TWO more effective turrets and the same range bonus.


As it stands, the Attack BC are going to continue to eat into another niche and don't have their own.
So really chaps, what's your design plan?
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#346 - 2013-04-14 05:53:10 UTC
I'd suggest removing the Cap Bonus from the oracle- make it bleed for fitting lasers if that's your intent with the BS's. It really shouldn't be in a better position than battleships in terms of cap stability.

I'd also suggest tweaking the innate bonus to make it actually hard to fit Tach's+MWD, seeing as the beam lasers just recently got a PWG decrease.
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#347 - 2013-04-14 09:57:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Askulf Joringer
Buzzmong wrote:


  • The 'Nado is going to still outshoot the Tempest, and is going to be directly on par DPS with the Maelstrom.

  • The Talos outshoots both the Megathron and the new Hyperion, and has more effective turrets than either.

  • The Oracle does exactly the same DPS has the Abaddon, although thankfully the Apoc and new 'Geddon are different enough so they don't all clash

  • The Naga still outshoots the only Caldari turret BS in the from of the Rohk, having TWO more effective turrets and the same range bonus.


  • The BS you compared them to have many other advantages that offset them in comparison. While you are correct that the attack BCs are gankier than many of the BS, it's also not fair to ignore the several advantages BS have over these BCs. A megathron (post change) has like 3x more ehp than the talos and similar, if not more overall dps than the talos as well, while also having more utility. While I'm not going to sit here and argue which is better as that's really a moot point, I simply would like to point out that the overall balance between BS and attack BCs is a bit more involved than comparing raw hitting power.

    As for your point about the tempest vs Nado... This is probably the most troublesome of the lot, Tempest needs a bit more drone bay I'd say.
    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #348 - 2013-04-14 10:10:52 UTC
    the problem is now even more accentuated as the navy bc's have similar EHP as battleships so if you need tank you can use navy bc's and if you need dps and mobility you can choose ABC's so where is the battleships going to fit in here?

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Buzzmong
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #349 - 2013-04-14 12:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
    Askulf Joringer wrote:
    The BS you compared them to have many other advantages that offset them in comparison. While you are correct that the attack BCs are gankier than many of the BS, it's also not fair to ignore the several advantages BS have over these BCs. A megathron (post change) has like 3x more ehp than the talos and similar, if not more overall dps than the talos as well, while also having more utility. While I'm not going to sit here and argue which is better as that's really a moot point, I simply would like to point out that the overall balance between BS and attack BCs is a bit more involved than comparing raw hitting power.

    As for your point about the tempest vs Nado... This is probably the most troublesome of the lot, Tempest needs a bit more drone bay I'd say.


    Well, that was my point with this statement:

    Buzzmong wrote:

    I'd have understood if you'd planned to shuffle things around so that this specific line up were the DPS machines of the entire large gun using ships and if you'd made it so none of the BS's used 8 turrets or had double damage bonuses, but as it stands, you've still kept the abilty of some of the BS's to be sub cap DPS machines, so I'm confused.


    Some of the ships are different enough to mean damage output isn't the deciding factor, but for others that's simply not the case.

    Take a hypothetical gang of 50 who are planning on using alpha strikes, why take a Mael over a Nado? The Nado does the same damage, for cheaper, and is faster while the tank that the Mael gets isn't relavent in that context.
    NEONOVUS
    Mindstar Technology
    Goonswarm Federation
    #350 - 2013-04-14 13:08:53 UTC
    Making them have 6 turrets still leaves them useful, but ensure the BS is always getting more for even more money
    Really there is no reason to take the BS in a gang as alpha kills you anyways, and a tank doesnt matter if there are remote reps.
    So no BS will languish for a while until remote reps are looked at or you reduce the grandness of these
    Reaver Glitterstim
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #351 - 2013-04-15 08:12:15 UTC
    I think the 1400mm artillery should be altered to fire a bit faster with the same DPS, thus lowering its alpha. Following this, I think the Maelstrom should have its rate of fire bonus changed to a damage bonus.

    Why these changes? It will leave the Maelstrom with about the same alpha as before but cut the Tornado's alpha a bit. Tornados are too cheap and agile to have that kind of power.

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #352 - 2013-04-15 09:22:03 UTC
    Just looking at the tornado's bonuses it has a falloff so why can it fit arties?

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #353 - 2013-04-15 18:07:26 UTC
    CCP Rise
    what do you think of making these T2 bc's instead?
    aswell as losing a turret it will balance these out.
    These are specialist ships much akin to the logistics ships using oversize mods.

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    X Gallentius
    Easy Eight
    #354 - 2013-04-15 18:10:12 UTC
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    CCP Rise
    what do you think of making these T2 bc's instead?
    What would this do other than feed more isk to the OTEC cartel?
    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #355 - 2013-04-15 18:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
    X Gallentius wrote:
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    CCP Rise
    what do you think of making these T2 bc's instead?
    What would this do other than feed more isk to the OTEC cartel?


    :) well that's a different issue for CCP to fix.... making it harder to train and increasing the price would make them less used.
    Also its the right thing to do they are using over-sized mods its a clear specialization like logistics cruisers.

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    X Gallentius
    Easy Eight
    #356 - 2013-04-15 18:26:41 UTC
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    :) well that's a different issue for CCP to fix.... making it harder to train and increasing the price would make them less used.
    Also its the right thing to do they are using over-sized mods its a clear specialization like logistics cruisers.

    They already cost more, and it takes longer to train for large turrets. (We can probably argue forever over how long the training time should be, and how much they should cost...)
    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #357 - 2013-04-15 18:43:16 UTC
    X Gallentius wrote:
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    :) well that's a different issue for CCP to fix.... making it harder to train and increasing the price would make them less used.
    Also its the right thing to do they are using over-sized mods its a clear specialization like logistics cruisers.

    They already cost more, and it takes longer to train for large turrets. (We can probably argue forever over how long the training time should be, and how much they should cost...)


    I think you have to consider the price of battleships and navy bc's these are its main competition

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Ristlin Wakefield
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #358 - 2013-04-16 13:35:58 UTC
    I like the changes to the mobility, scan res, and signature radius. It's going in the right direction.

    These should be seen as mobile gunboats that are vulnerable when caught (not very easy to catch, but definitely doable with these changes). Now if you get a warp in, there's a good chance tackle could grab a few before the fleet warps off. The main difference between these and battleships will be that the BS can continue to apply damage and tank quite well while they cycle the MJD.

    I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license.

    Witcher Kushan
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #359 - 2013-04-16 16:53:44 UTC
    one think I can not understood - that NAGA do not have missiles. Why this is the only ship is not using race skills?
    Reaver Glitterstim
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #360 - 2013-04-16 17:53:31 UTC
    Witcher Kushan wrote:
    one think I can not understood - that NAGA do not have missiles. Why this is the only ship is not using race skills?
    Caldari don't always use missiles. A lot of their ships are designed for hybrid weapons. They may have launcher slots as a secondary option, but attack battlecruisers are highly streamlined into their role, almost like a tech 2 ship.

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."