Player Features and Ideas Discussion

and thats why leave the damn abaddon alone!
By the way is anyone from CCP actually reads it? I went through tons of pages and I see no CCP answer at all?

Well

Does abaddon actually need a nerf?
I did not see any large scale abaddon fleet flying around and killing things, for at least several months, but Rokhs and Mealstroms are frequently used.

For me, any race should have at least one battle ship for PVE or mission running for new players.
Apocalypse was the choice but now it is not cap stable with all lvl 4 skills and 1 sansha rep.
(And you know one sansha rep is not that tanky)
or you have to lose a bit tank or a bit dps or some range/tracking. Or maybe use some expensive modules or rigs or implants.
Maybe you are thinking about sth like reduction in cap consumption of lazers? I don't know.
but if you are doing so, you'll have to change all frigs, crusers, and bcs.
for example, harbinger to 10% damage and 7.5% tracking, maybe.

Armageddon is a interesting change.
But why?
Personally I precieve amarr ship as:
Havily tanked
Laser focused
Drones supported.
And the old geddon perfectly fit that discription.
The new one is just sth like Domigeddon or Armaphoon accoring to the weapon used.

After sleeping on it, the simplest statement of the problem with the Apoc change is that:
the new bonus to tracking doesn't synergize well with the optimal bonus.

When do you most need optimal? When you're far away.
When do you most need tracking? When you're closer to an orbiting target.

The cap bonus can synergize with any fit that uses lasers, but the tracking bonus isn't useful in as many situations. If you want to move away from cap bonuses, find something else that synergizes with optimal.

Some alternatives might include damage/level so tachyons at range become as good as pulses have been (since long range pulses are now out and the geddon no longer does high laser dps). A tracking disruption bonus would synergize well for small pvp although in pve it's still not useful. Tracking instead of cap is just a straight nerf to a ship that's not OP.

So with these changes. Not only will Amarr be the only race that can't use its highest tier tech 2 guns and remain cap stable.

None of these ships can even fit a rack of Tachyons. Which only the Scorpion shares with us, not being able to fit T2 torps.

All other T1 BS can fit the highest tier guns and remain cap stable with the basic high damage ammo, AM, EMP. without any other fittings.

MF makes all the Amarr BS unstable. And we have to use a slot to fix our power grid, and another slot to be able to keep firing.

This is with all level 5 skills btw. Which you know all those new Amarr players get immediately...

The cap instability needs to change at the BS level, either the ammo, guns or hulls. Hopefully without giving us that wasted cap use bonus back.

The powergrid use of the Turrets probably need to be reworked. With all the collective changes to all weapons systems Tachs are not so good that they shouldn't be able to be fit in this age of EVE. ( the only T1 non faction hull that can fit them and other modules, is the Oracle! So a BC can use BS guns but the BS can't fit them?!?!?! )

Eagerly awaiting a constructive reply to this thread by CCP.

Just FYI - the proposed Geddon now has a split weapon bonus (drones and neuts). I don't have a problem with this change, per se (although players who fly the Geddon more frequently might), but I believe that this is inconsistent when you state that your overall tiericide plan includes removing all split weapon bonuses on T1 battleships.

And, if you try to tell me that neuts are not weapons, I'm just going to laugh at you.

Did you read my proposed change?

It would actually be easier for battleships to "swat frigates" at the same ranges they currently do now, only with a small energy neutralizer instead of a heavy energy neutralizer. This means the activation cost of the small neut is trivial, and the fitting requirements are greatly reduced if your goal is to keep frigates off of your back. You actually do this much better, with a reduced cycle time making things much harder on the frigate to counter. The total neut amount is lower, but it is still a brutal attack because it is on the same order of magnitude as the frigate's ship.

This all comes at the expense of being explicitly forced to fit towards the goal of neuting frigates, rather than fitting a heavy neut which should be intended to be used against targets closer to your own size. You make these exact same choices when choosing which of the traditional weapon systems to fit - fitting guns that work on roughly your own size and up, or purposefully under-sizing your guns for reduced total damage output but higher effective damage output against smaller targets.

I dare to say the primary goal of heavy neuts is to deal massive neuting power to slow ships with large capacitor reservoirs, and with no reduction in neut power it should still be able to perform this role quite effectively. At the same time it gives pilots of all ship sizes a reason to fit their neut towards their intended purpose, not to mindlessly slap on the biggest neut they can get the grid for.

lol :)

I wrote a big long post, but it disappeared on me. Oh well. Here goes attempt number two:

Abaddon: Changes make sense. -1% armor seems...strange, but simply because I'm used to multiples of 2.5.

Apocalpyse: I really hope you're doing a laser re-balancing. Like that's the only explanation I can infer from these changes. With the Abaddon having the same cap as always, and the armageddon now a drone/neut boat, the only boat left for a laser based level 4 mission runner is...not the apoc.

I used E-uni mission fits, since E-uni is designed to bring new blood into EVE, and since that's primarily where the issues are with the new apoc. Currently, with all 5 skills, a pulse apoc can dual rep just fine, with "only" 3 rigs and 4 medium slots dedicated to capacitor, and will in fact be 40~% cap stable.

Without the cap bonus, it drops to 5 minutes.

And this is with all 5 skills, and the beam fit is even worse, only dedicating 5 slots to capacitor, (3 rig +2 medium) single repping, and only having 3 min of capacitor available.

But all this is fixed if laser cap use is rebalanced. Just tell me it's going to be rebalanced. Amarr lasers don't need a huge buff, but take away the cap bonuses and the ships won't be usable for PvE. I'm not a PvP expert so I'll let others hash out what's great about this, but the amarr won't have a usable ship for missions with this current iteration of changes. So, just put my heart to rest and let me know if lasers are being rebalanced when BS's are. Otherwise, please reconsider. At some point, all the money comes from ratting or mining, after all. (Well and PI, and moons, but that doesn't help my case, now does it?)

Armageddon: I've already said I'm not a PvP expert, but the neut bonus seems...out of character. With a split weapon system, the armageddon feels like a new typhoon, only armor tanked. Its 5-5, so split weapon systems. And with the way things are now, those 5 slots will never be used for laser in any fleet doctrine, or EFT scenario. Blasters? Sure. Artillery? Sure. Rails? Sure. Missiles? Maybe, but probably not since this seems to be a PvP boat, but lasers, PvP or PvE? Hell no.

Looking at the Armageddon, I just can't help but feel it's flexible in all the wrong ways. The new arby and prophecy are fine, so I can't attribute it's wrongness to split weapon systems, so I place the blame on the neut bonus. It gives it a lack of definition. Drones secondary as a secondary damage system is great, but the neut bonus manages to be in just the wrong spot: overwhelming and underwhelming at the exact same time.

The dragoon suffers much the same issue: it's great for picking up prey smaller than itself, but against any coordinated enemy, it is quickly dismantled. The difference is, there are a LOT of ships smaller than the Armageddon, and all of them are lunch to it (provided they're within the 38 km range.) But facing any larger enemy, the Armageddon lacks...well...lasers. It munches smaller ships, but is quickly eaten by anything it's own size, perhaps best comparable to the scorpion. Or typhoon. I don't know.

I hope my feedback has added something new. Good luck making the amarr fabulous!

Up one side and down the other....

1. Abaddon: tank tweak, fine.

All the rest, I like the ideas, but truly they feel half baked, a first cut at something planned for winter expansion, not a plan ready to go live in 6 weeks. ( true in the other races as well )

The Apoc Changes, ok... I like the new bonus, but dedicating 3 or more slots/rigs to try and get cap stable is not really viable.
As it is now it has targeting range issue, why not address that.
It has fitting issues as a sniper, why not address that.
Reducing the tank on it just does not seem to fit with a range and tracking bonus, it's not a brawler, it's not a sniper... it's just a mongral with cap issues.

The 'Gedden change .... I like the idea, but it's not finished.
Drone boat , is good ... but you need you low slots to make it viable.
Cap warfare is good, but 37km range is not enough to reach a enemy fleet, might be ok if it was also to ET's since you could then be part of a reasonable cap chain.
Losing a slot in trade for what, drone bay ?
Used with MJD this might work, but a single fit should not be a central design of ship balance.
Adding missiles , meh. If I'm using Neut's I'm not fitting DPS at all, If I wanted a mission boat with Missiles and Drones I would get a Rattlesnake, if I wanted drones and guns I would get a Domi, this hull offers nothing that I can not already get, and be better at it.
Over all the design feels slapped together, like it was built by committee, or not an Amarr pilot, or both.
It fits with some of the recent changes, but only with a shoehorn and is really not ready for prime time.

If you want to make it a disruption BS then do that, give it focus;
40%/lvl Range bonus to Neut, Nos, and ET. , Make it reach out and touch someone, force it to be a sniper target, and give it a tank that reflects that ( ie. weak )
No Weapon system bonus, Cap warfare is it's weapon system.
Stay with the 5 Hardpoint change, heck, keep the added missile systems to stay in line with the other changes:
6High ( 5 Turret/5 Launcher )
Keep the 4mid's and give it a Utility, bonus, 7.5%/lvl to TD effectiveness
and leave the 8 lows alone.
And leave it with the current drone bay, so it can apply some DPS, but only has one flight.

I'm not sure I would love that ship, but I know what it does, and way I would want to fly it.

Please take some real time to consider what you are doing here, better to change nothing in June then to make a mess of it.
There are good ideas in this thread, go look at them, if this is what you give us in June, so be it, we will fly it and make it work, but this is very much not your A game.

And still no devs bothered to write a single letter on this
Looks like they are going to feed it to us anyways

Thanks CCP for the major awesome ships mess up