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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Vremennoi Omaristos
Old Carlson
#341 - 2013-04-09 09:16:20 UTC
To fly more often to Amar, reduce dependence in Cap turrets. Cap or add to merchant ships. Bonus ship to Cap, per level, to replace something useful. Such tracking. Or add M +1. Or leave as is. No need to attach a rocket. The possibility of 17 -30 and 60, this is a great opportunity to do damage immediately and not later.
Kyang Tia
Matari Exodus
#342 - 2013-04-09 09:20:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyang Tia
Hi again,
some opinions on the Amarr changes:

The neut bonus is a good idea, and very powerful. It will give players an effective tool against logistics and nano ships. However, as a drone boat, the Geddon with its currrent changes will outshine the Domi and there is no way that is going to change as long as you want to it to be both a drone and a neut boat. Using drones as a main weapon system mitigates many of the problems neutralizers normally have (grid+cap usage). Drone ships do also inherently have powerful defensive capabilites like being less vulnerable to jamming, dampening, frigate swams etc. Look at the Domi: Neuts are already powerful on it, and that's even though it only has 6 highs, no bonus and can't even fit a full rack of heavy neuts due to lack of grid. Giving one ship a bonus to both drones and neuts is therefore going to make it pretty overpowered.

I also have to agree with many of the previous posters: To me as a rather old player, drones seem a bit un-amarrish. I like flying Prophecies, but when I think of Amarr, I still think of lasers bringing justice to the infidels.

One possible solution: Make the Geddon a turret/neut platform more similar to a Bhaal than a Dragoon. Simply switch out the laser cap bonus for neut range and keep the rof bonus. Keep the 125m³ drone bay and compensate with another high slot. Give it 5 hardpoints. 5 lasers and 3 neuts plus drones should do plenty of damage but also eat cap like there's no tomorrow, which would give the ship a weak point for its enemies to exploit. The additional high slot would also make it possible to bring 8 heavy neuts instead of 7 for when you need to break Basi/Guardian chains. You'd lose a large part of the dps though, which the drone variant would no. Seems like a fair tredeoff to me.


I'm not sure about the Apoc. It does anemic dps, but its double bonuses to projection might make it worthwhile in some situations. Younger Amarr players might find it difficult to fit a good PvE boat when no single Amarr BS with cap usage bonus remains. I think a better solution could be found here, but I'm not sure what it might look like.


The Abbaddon change is absolutely fine, imo. Redusing the resist bonus to 4% brings it in line with other bonuses without losing variety in the process. (I'm trusting this will be done on all ships with resist bonuses...)
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2013-04-09 09:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Fox
Looks interesting ,even new Armageddon looks OP.

New gate camps will change imo from fast locking to neuting camps.I understand CCP Rise loved his Geddon while he was player and hated big use of logistic in small gangs ,but this looks to much for my taste.By browsing Failheap forum some fits are showing this new Geddon will have good dps ( not to mention using weapons with no cap use) with 37km neuting range.I don't see any BS that will be that good in both dps role and support that much.

But ok adapting to new stuff is always fun even when you don't like changes,if nothing it make you think more how to overcome new problems.
Gordon Esil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#344 - 2013-04-09 09:25:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Gordon Esil
For the Abaddon, I'm like: "well that is not good, but is not too bad as well"
For the Apoc, well, why the hell I need to care about tracking something if I can hit it from 100+ km range? until it reaches me with its MWD it will be blown up already (and if I got MWD then yeah good luck getting in range to shoot my Apoc or to be under my guns)

Quote:
just saying CCP, if i had WANTED to use missiles, i woudl have trained up caldari, if i wanted drones, i would have trained up gallente, i trained amarr because i like lasers. i gues this fits into your whole "make crosstraining easier" thing though, but honestly its mroe like "why bother crosstraining when every race has comparable ships for every battlefield role"

Basically this is how it should be, I wanted to use missiles I got Raven and trained for it
I am on lasers because I want to use lasers only, not a kitchen sink fit of missiles/lasers
Oh and if I need neuting ship then I'm sure I'll make a good Bhaalgorn setup to be OP in its role

But I guess this has bright side and a dark side, for me I see the dark side more Sad
Kyang Tia
Matari Exodus
#345 - 2013-04-09 09:30:41 UTC
tasman devil wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!

SH*T flying around like he doesn't care



Ok, you don't understand anything about Amarr ships. I'll make this short so you'll understand it.



You are telling kil2 that he doesn't understand anything about Amarr? wat.
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#346 - 2013-04-09 09:31:22 UTC

The only issue I have is the huge problems with cap on all Amarr ships. Fix that and we can be buddies Idea
tasman devil
Puritans
#347 - 2013-04-09 09:41:37 UTC
Kyang Tia wrote:
tasman devil wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!

SH*T flying around like he doesn't care



Ok, you don't understand anything about Amarr ships. I'll make this short so you'll understand it.



You are telling kil2 that he doesn't understand anything about Amarr? wat.

I KNOW he is Kil2, and I love watching his videos.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, but this just pisses me off.

I don't belive in reincarnation I've never believed in it in my previous lives either...
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2013-04-09 09:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Fox
tasman devil wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!

SH*T flying around like he doesn't care



Ok, you don't understand anything about Amarr ships. I'll make this short so you'll understand it.



Hmm maybe you need to check this and edit your post a bit :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2psM6BC3Jo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opye7e6Rmxs

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, but this just pisses me off.


Cause your Bhaalghorn is loosing role ?Others should be more upset ,cause we will have ultra cheep version of you beloved ship ,and be much more used than your ship.So instead of seeing rarely Bhaalghorn they will meet new nemesis in shape of cheap Geddon.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#349 - 2013-04-09 09:47:37 UTC
God damn the amount of stupidity in this thread.

The Armageddon gets a neut RANGE bonus, while the Bhaalgorn has a neut efficiency bonus (ie The Armageddon neut from far away, the Bhaalgorn neut harder). WH dwellers will still use Bhaalgorns, and except for those guys, there aren't much use for Bhaalgorns in K-space anyway.

Yes, there are launcher slots on the Armageddon. No one forces you to fit missile launchers. There are currently launcher slots on Abbadons and Hyperions, I didn't see anyone complaining about it. Fit 5 Megapulses on the new Armageddon and stop crying already.

Yes, it's now a drone boat. Oh, sure, you wanted 3 almost identical laser+armor battleships so that everyone chooses the Abaddon and no one cares about the other two.

Just a reminder. Abaddons are the most used fleet battleships. I've yet to see a REGULAR Apocalypse fleet (Don't tell me about the good 'ol times).

Guess what, Apocalypses are stuck in PVE roles right now, because they have more cap than Abbadons. The current Armageddon is a good ship, but I don't see any reason why you would want an Armageddon instead of an Abaddon. The sheer tank difference makes the Abaddon better 9/10 of the time.

Why are there Armageddon fleets ? Because Abaddons are more expensive. Ask Nulli about that.

Now the Apocalypse become a med-range killing machine.

71km Optimal with a single TC is pretty good with short-range weapons. It deals 520 DPS at that range. Did I mention the stellar tracking ?

We all know that Guns > All in fleet doctrines. The Apocalypse is currently the Battleship that gets the most "Damage Application" bonuses. DPS is quite irrelevant when stacked together with hundreds of other Apocalypses. That kind of fleet should wreck any kind of BC fleet or at least prevent any kind of fight. Should wreck HM Tengufleets too. Should wreck AHAC fleets, if you bring some Lokis. Could possibly wreck a Nagafleet, if you go prop-less or if Fozzie/Kil2 fixes Beams with a -30% PWG needs.

So all in all, we have an Abaddon that barely lost 5% of its EHP (Which is close to nothing and won't hurt its usability at all), an Apocalypse that is truly the MegaPulse master (Fix Beams plz tia) and a VERY POWERFUL Armageddon with range-bonused neuts.

So what's wrong ?

Yes, the Curse gets a hit. We know that T2 cruisers are bad and will be rebalanced after Odyssey.

The Armageddon doesn't primarily use guns anymore. Well, if you didn't train for 5 T2 heavy drones on an Armageddon, then I don't know what you've been training. If you did train for those T2 Heavy drones, then you're fine ! You can still use 5 Mega Pulses, your beloved drones, some shiny 37.5km meta 4 neuts and all that jazz. Go on and wreck havoc now.

Yes, the Apocalypse will have harder time managing its cap. I believe that can't be fixed by changing the ships and should be fixed by changing the guns. The cap usage reduction bonus isn't a bonus, it's actually a "Here, you can use your guns at the expense of one useful bonus !". Which makes cap usage reduction a burden for Amarrian ships. You got a useful bonus this time, ain't that great ?

All in all, even if some things still need to be fixed (Beams and cap usage, mostly), those changes are alright.

Don't be afraid of having to change your setups, be happy that you have new possibilities to look forward to !
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#350 - 2013-04-09 09:49:08 UTC
Just curious, are we changing all the battleships in order to get them in shape for small gang warfare alone?
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#351 - 2013-04-09 10:01:29 UTC
@CCP Rise

Loving the new changes to all the tier1 BSs however i feel the need to ask will these changes be passed on to their navy faction counter parts, im hoping for a yes.
Vremennoi Omaristos
Old Carlson
#352 - 2013-04-09 10:07:28 UTC
They change ships for themselves, not for the players. asked whether it is necessary, they were told no. do PVP ships rocket, all exactly what killed him. Make a tornado missileBig smile, Talos Big smilein this case.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#353 - 2013-04-09 10:07:30 UTC
Don't reduce cap usage for lasers. Instead add cap to Amarr ships.
Aurianka
Zellbrigen
#354 - 2013-04-09 10:15:52 UTC
Never change a running system, baddon need more cap at least. the only thing that change is effected at the abbadon that you must grind even longer structure. maelstrom and rokh are the only ships that are overpowered. NERV ARTY and RAILS not the amarr ships... Evil
the game is getting boring and slowly losing the attributes which is why I play it Cry
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#355 - 2013-04-09 10:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
how about changing the geddon to have 4 heavies and give it a 5% laser damage instead of neut range bonus and then remove the launchers.
this way domi is still better droneboat and geddon isn't an OP neuty droneboat missile ship....
Oh and reduce the mass of all battleships by a couple of million to boost align time.
And if you want attack bs to use AB's you will need to buff AB's somewhat like reduce the mass of them they shouldn't have the same mass as an mwd, a web resistance inbuilt would help and a bigger speed boost.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Elistea
BLUE Regiment.
#356 - 2013-04-09 10:49:59 UTC
Very nice changes. They make Amarr BSs way more versatile. Love the new Geddon!
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#357 - 2013-04-09 10:50:33 UTC
Kyang Tia wrote:


You are telling kil2 that he doesn't understand anything about Amarr? wat.


Stop the kil2 nut hugging please, he's hardly as good as the baddies who followed his feeds thought he was. The simple fact that he's on board with such an unhealthy change to the geddon validates the previous posters claim immensely.


As many poster have stated, changes to abbadon is good (all resistance bonuses need to be nerfed to 4% per level), the changes to the apoc are meh, the removal of the cap reduction bonus will have a negative effect on a large number of setups. As stated above, the change to the geddon is simply full ******. It will not only be extremely overpowred in terms of small gang warfare, but it will completely outclass the Dominix.

These changes are clearly the brainchild of a group of mouth breathing mongoloids, I suggest CCP find a new balance team asap.
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#358 - 2013-04-09 10:52:19 UTC
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
Please carry changes over to faction versions.

RIP Bhaalgorn.

Edit: also keep in mind the Apoc is the only Amarr BS for cap-stable pve missions so I would make sure those are still doable after the change lest amarr pvers lose their platforms.


Exactly, dont forget about pve, in this way amarr might loose best mission runner.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#359 - 2013-04-09 10:54:06 UTC
Meduza13 wrote:
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
Please carry changes over to faction versions.

RIP Bhaalgorn.

Edit: also keep in mind the Apoc is the only Amarr BS for cap-stable pve missions so I would make sure those are still doable after the change lest amarr pvers lose their platforms.


Exactly, dont forget about pve, in this way amarr might loose best mission runner.


Yes my ASB Apoc is great for popping ships at 70km with scorch :)

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#360 - 2013-04-09 11:01:49 UTC
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Upon further thought.. The Dominix might end up being too good for its own good.

No, it doesn't have a neuting amount bonus. But who needs that if you have 100 Dominix in fleet?

100+ cap-chaining heavy neut-fit Dominix with T2 sentries will be a 50km sphere of instakill (and of course viable beyond that range as well). There's no way for brawlers to kill them, they will just get capped out.

It looks like a really fun fleet concept until you realize that the best counter to this is the same counter all battleship fleets have.. Alphafleet. Yet even more alpha proliferation, which is pretty damn boring.