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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#41 - 2013-04-08 18:04:35 UTC
Overall very nice changes.

The Tears Must Flow
Kerdrak
Querry Moon
#42 - 2013-04-08 18:07:00 UTC
What will happen with Navy Battleships? will they be changed, adjusted or remain in its current state?
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-04-08 18:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Michael Harari wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:


scan res on scorp


It needs less scan res, not more


Whoops, I take it back, looks like they increased the scan resolution on the scorp by 35mm and didn't label it...there we go.

It was stupid that the EWAR ship had the lowest (75mm) scan res of the 3 caldari boats, it would be logical the caldari engineers would build it for FAST locking to promote ewar use...

more on balancing:

the rokh could really use 75m of drone bay, I know a large amount of people who want to have 5 medium drones and 5 light drones like the raven can do for missioning. It's not like this would make it OP.
there's even a petition and campaign for it lol:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/25m3/signatures
http://www.ninveah-enterprises.com/images/rokhcampaign/rokh25l.jpg
http://www.ninveah.com/p/support-rokh.html

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
WInter Borne
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-04-08 18:10:50 UTC
The whole concept of attack battleships seems rather redundant. Whats the incentive to fly attack battleships over attack battlecruisers? At a quick glance, it looks like attack battlecruisers have equivalent or greater damage output with even greater mobility.

The slight mobility differences in attack battleships compared to combat battleships seems marginal at best when you add in MJD's or MWDS, and does not compensate for the reduced tank.

I still see very little practical use for the raven until the damage application of torpedoes and cruise missiles are brought in line with turrets.

I applaud the fact that you've added ewar to the Amar line in the way of neut bonuses (range bonuses are rather pointless given the majority of situations you'd likely find yourself using such a ship in). However, that leaves Minmatar and Gallente as the only two races without dedicated ewar battleship platforms.

I'm also afraid of what you plan to do to recon ships in the future given the changes proposed to the armageddon.
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#45 - 2013-04-08 18:13:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Turelus
So I just compared speed & agility all the ships after changes.
TL;DR: Raven is out classed by the Typhoon and will remain a worthless ship past newbies doing PVE.

Quote:
Raven:
The (cavalry)Raven is becoming the Caldari attack battleship. Its bonuses were a natural fit already, and although its giving up some base hitpoints, the substantial increase to speed and added mid should open up plenty of new opportunities for Caldari missile pilots without hurting anyone who was already happy using it.


New mobility statistics (best to worst)

Align Time: Typhoon 15.8 > Megathron 15.96 > Apocalypse 16.02 > Hyperion 16.36 > Raven 16.52 > Scorpion 16.66 > Dominix 16.88 > Tempest 17.18 > Armageddon 19.96 > Maelstrom 19.53 > Rokh 19.85 > Abaddon 20.03

Max Velocity: Typhoon 130 > Megathron 122 > Temptest 120 > Hyperion 115 > Apocalypse 113 > Raven 113 > Dominix 109 > Armageddon 100 > Scorpion 94 > Maelstrom 94 > Rokh 89 > Abaddon 89

Agility: Typhoon 0.11 > Scorpion 0.116 > Megathron 0.117 > Hyperion 0.1178 > Apocalypse > 0.119 > Tempest 0.12 > Raven 0.12 > Dominix 0.1254 > Armageddon 0.13 > Maelstrom 0.136 > Rokh 0.136 > Abaddon 0.14

Mass: Apocalypse 97100000 > Magathron 98400000 > Raven 99300000 > Hyperion 100200000 > Dominix 100250000 > Tempest 103300000 > Typhoon 103600000 > Scorpion 103600000 > Maelstrom 103600000 > Armageddon 105200000 > Rokh 105300000 > Abaddon 125000000

So I would assume that the Gallente ships are faster and more agile to counter the fact they tend to be armour tanked and use blasters which need to be used up close. Although the Hyperion without Trimarks or Plates making use of its repair bonus will be faster.

The Raven has the ability (with all skills V) to fire cruise missiles up to 253km and Torpedo's 30km which isn't really a great bonus over the 168 Cruise and 20 Torpedo ranges of the Typhoon, a ship which according to the stats will be able to get in close faster and gain a substantial bonus to its damage via the explosion velocity bonus.

Now even in a PVE sense the Raven's range bonus has no benefit, when was the last time you needed to fire Cruise Missiles past 168km and Torpedo's are just not going to be hitting for good damage without at least two Target Painters.

Unless Keep in mind that we will be taking a more detailed look at battleship sized missile systems in the near future. means something which makes an extended flight time and faster missile hits worth while then the Raven will still remain as worthless ship in PVP and a suboptimal ship in PVE.

If I have misunderstandings on any of this please feel free to correct me. However it seems that once again Caldari will remain the slow cumbersome ships of EVE because of those heavy shields they carry around. Cry

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#46 - 2013-04-08 18:15:04 UTC
What! No Smarty Bonus to Rokh RollP

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#47 - 2013-04-08 18:19:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Aglais
I

I can't.

I don't know where to start here.

The Raven keeps the SAME bonuses, the SAME amount of launchers, NO guns, LESS drones... And then you cut it's tank (which it was already infamous for having almost NONE of compared to other battleships), for NINETEEN EXTRA METERS PER SECOND.

It's still slower than the ******* typhoon. The ******* typhoon has a bonus that seeks to rectify one of the biggest problems with torpedoes today. The ******* Typhoon, remains a better god damn missile boat than the Raven.

I stand corrected. The only way to tank the Typhoon is armor. Not enough mids for anything remotely resembling a shield tank that'll compare with any other battleship. And those 1600s and trimarks obliterate the Typhoon's speed and agility advantage. I think the Raven is faster. Interesting choice I guess?

But both ships are still plagued by nonsense issues regarding battleship missiles- that's where the true and most abominable weaknesses lie in these two hulls. They use fundamentally broken weapons and as such can not be good until torpedoes stop having the worst range (Seriously- with my skills, T2 damage torps don't hit further than 14 kilometers, and please keep in mind here, that you're in an immensely sluggish armor boat. It's like every problem with the current Raven, taken to 11. Likely easily solved by making the range of torpedoes less abysmal.)

Post edit: If you liked this post because I was ranting against the Raven because you think it's horrible- I still think it's horrible, I just have different reasons now thanks to checking it out in EFT. And I still think the Raven's tank is subpar, because it's massively below that of the Apocalypse, for sure. Even though it is faster. But I don't know if that'll help it at all.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#48 - 2013-04-08 18:21:00 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
Raven, unless you make some drastic changes to the torps or cruises this ship continues to be bad


they need to nerf down rockets and HAMs before they look at buffing them


do that and they should nerf Auto cannons into oblivion as rockets and hams are now on par with ACs

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Nalfaine Valderfire
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-04-08 18:29:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Scorpion:

The Scorpion, while being an oddity in the battleship line up, seems fairly happy. We have adjusted its hitpoints slightly, so they would roughly match the attack set, but otherwise there are no changes.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range
25% bonus to ECM Burst range

Slot layout: 6H, 8M, 4L; 4 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 9000 PWG, 750 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(+359) / 5500 / 6500(+1031)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1087s / 5.06
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .116 / 103600000 / 16.66s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 480


WTH seriously its a ewar focused bs. burst are pointless. drop a high or TWO. give us a low. why in earth would anyone fly this over a blackbird. atleast in a blackbird i can speed tank it.... and be effective in ecm. and idk maybe lock something before it warps off. and oh idk live longer.

the scorpion seriously blows if you are going to focus it for ecm. then focus it for ecm......

screw the defence bonuses give me targeting bonuses and ecm bonuses. remove the 25% on the burst and make it 40% on the ecm jammer strength. and thats just to compensate because at the current scan res people will be gone before ur halfway done locking them... oh wait no they wont they will gank u cause it doesnt have any tank anyways...even with the bonuses added.. u cant shield fit this thing due to the fact that ecm takes mid slots..

WAIT GREAT IDEA
MAKE ECM A HIGH SLOT....Ugh


atleast then it can perform its role and still tank stuff Sad

hmmm lets see how many more flaws i can point out. the extra cap is actually the only think that was done right for this ship. its a support ship not a dps boat. yet uve tried to make it a multi tasker and with the bonuses it just cant be. it cant ecm cause it cant lock fast enough and if it does lock fast enough than ur fighting a titan or a cap and guess what oops u cant jam them. or they are flying around with keeping u locked and scrambled in a speed tank frig or cruiser. and guess what u dont do enough ecm strength to get them off u. even the burst is pointless cause it just doesnt do enough ecm strength.

can you please show me one reason why i should ever fly this ship again with the current stats... this ship is useless.
Dunk Dinkle
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#50 - 2013-04-08 18:35:43 UTC
Question: Are there actual combat situations where ECM Burst makes sense? (Seriously asking)
C3ph45
Melphalan
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#51 - 2013-04-08 18:36:46 UTC
So how about... take off the ECM Burst bonus on the Scorpion, and throw on a Resistances bonus of some sort instead? It'll at least add a bit to the tank. At least until I can find some way of repurposing the hull completely!
Steve Spooner
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-04-08 18:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Spooner
What about the CNR?

Indeed the Raven has absolutely no place in PVP because it's slower than a snorlax rolling uphills, the damage application is ass and in the face of the Typhoon it's bleh. So it's basically a purely dedicated PVE ship, which I'm fine with because carebears.
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-04-08 18:59:45 UTC
Love the battleship changes. Any chance you could do something to adress the issue of BS mass for WH usage? I want to fly Battleships, they're downright cool, but I can't bring more than 10 of them if I want to have a 2 way trip. For 0.0 Roaming that just isn't going to work. =( Its sad to say, Tier3 BCs, and Tech 3 Cruisers are sadly the only usable ship for WH residents who want to roam due to the mass limitations.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-04-08 19:05:25 UTC
Steve Spooner wrote:

it's slower than a snorlax rolling uphills

LOL

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-04-08 19:07:43 UTC
Turelus wrote:
So I just compared speed & agility all the ships after changes.
TL;DR: Raven is out classed by the Typhoon and will remain a worthless ship past newbies doing PVE.

Quote:
Raven:
The (cavalry)Raven is becoming the Caldari attack battleship. Its bonuses were a natural fit already, and although its giving up some base hitpoints, the substantial increase to speed and added mid should open up plenty of new opportunities for Caldari missile pilots without hurting anyone who was already happy using it.


New mobility statistics (best to worst)

Align Time: Typhoon 15.8 > Megathron 15.96 > Apocalypse 16.02 > Hyperion 16.36 > Raven 16.52 > Scorpion 16.66 > Dominix 16.88 > Tempest 17.18 > Armageddon 19.96 > Maelstrom 19.53 > Rokh 19.85 > Abaddon 20.03

Max Velocity: Typhoon 130 > Megathron 122 > Temptest 120 > Hyperion 115 > Apocalypse 113 > Raven 113 > Dominix 109 > Armageddon 100 > Scorpion 94 > Maelstrom 94 > Rokh 89 > Abaddon 89

Agility: Typhoon 0.11 > Scorpion 0.116 > Megathron 0.117 > Hyperion 0.1178 > Apocalypse > 0.119 > Tempest 0.12 > Raven 0.12 > Dominix 0.1254 > Armageddon 0.13 > Maelstrom 0.136 > Rokh 0.136 > Abaddon 0.14

Mass: Apocalypse 97100000 > Magathron 98400000 > Raven 99300000 > Hyperion 100200000 > Dominix 100250000 > Tempest 103300000 > Typhoon 103600000 > Scorpion 103600000 > Maelstrom 103600000 > Armageddon 105200000 > Rokh 105300000 > Abaddon 125000000

So I would assume that the Gallente ships are faster and more agile to counter the fact they tend to be armour tanked and use blasters which need to be used up close. Although the Hyperion without Trimarks or Plates making use of its repair bonus will be faster.

The Raven has the ability (with all skills V) to fire cruise missiles up to 253km and Torpedo's 30km which isn't really a great bonus over the 168 Cruise and 20 Torpedo ranges of the Typhoon, a ship which according to the stats will be able to get in close faster and gain a substantial bonus to its damage via the explosion velocity bonus.

Now even in a PVE sense the Raven's range bonus has no benefit, when was the last time you needed to fire Cruise Missiles past 168km and Torpedo's are just not going to be hitting for good damage without at least two Target Painters.

Unless Keep in mind that we will be taking a more detailed look at battleship sized missile systems in the near future. means something which makes an extended flight time and faster missile hits worth while then the Raven will still remain as worthless ship in PVP and a suboptimal ship in PVE.

If I have misunderstandings on any of this please feel free to correct me. However it seems that once again Caldari will remain the slow cumbersome ships of EVE because of those heavy shields they carry around. Cry

Couldn't agree with you more...

When i first checked these ships my first reaction was to confirm from my calender that April 1:st was already week ago... this is just horrible joke, please tell me you were just week late?

I came here to see some ehp buffs on the bs line after the frigate and cruiser lines received such buffs and also tier3 bc's were stepping on the toes of many bs roles... but what do we have here? Well NERFS of course yet again!
Tilo Rhywald
Wilde Jagd
#56 - 2013-04-08 19:13:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tilo Rhywald
The nerf to the Rokh's (Abaddon's) resistance bonus really is significant, and I don't approve of it at all.

People who know me in game also know that the Rokh is my one true battleship love. Just as an anecdote: When I first considered subscribing to this game I looked up pictures of the ships in Eve and I thought most of them were so hideous I'd never even consider flying most of them... But there was ONE model that tipped the balance towards giving the game a try: the Rokh. I simply adore this hull, and even back in my PVE days I used it despite knowing it wasn't the best missioning choice by a long shot.

Now, while doing solo-pvp almost exclusively, I really don't understand why the Rokh would need this nerf. If resistance boni are a problem in fleets why not nerf logis or something and leave the Rokh alone? If anything it needs a buff of 25 m^3 additional drone space! It's now totally obvious that it is outclassed by its brother in mind (same role, same slot layout, shield tanker,...), the Maelstrom: The Rokh's guns use cap, are limited to a specific damage type, and the ship now sports a much weaker active tank. Just put in in EFT: both with DCII, XLSBII, SBAII and invuln II will give you a Maelstrom that tanks almost precisely 10% (!!) more with easier cap management while dealing a comparable amount of DPS. That's all but a triviality.

To the crowd that wants to replace the Rokh's range bonus with a damage bonus: No. Learn to fly a Rokh (or any range-bonused hypbid ship), and you'll see that a range bonus IS a damage bonus. The Rokh is not exclusively a sniper, and it never was supposed to be.

The blaster-Rokh is one of the best and most-fun-to-fly solo ships in the game, while never having been even close to being overpowered (neuts, anyone?). Please don't nerf the most beautiful ship in EVE.

Cheers
Tilo R.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#57 - 2013-04-08 19:21:05 UTC
The nerfs to the Raven EHP are way to much. It was already thin before with 2 LSE II and 2 Invuls. 1 extra mid slot will not make that much difference. And most of us would like to fit a TP/web/MJD etc in that newly opened slots. Instead it will go to another LSE or an EM field II to patch up this miserable tank.

And don't let the "Why does the phoon get the damage amp bonus?" get you down. That velocity bonus is gold when it comes to actually using torps. Also, I look forward to you fixing Torps/CMs. It's been a long, long time coming.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#58 - 2013-04-08 19:22:31 UTC
If you're going to nerf the Raven's damage by removing the turrets, at least add the 7th launcher for a full rack. It's a little pitiful that other races' attack battleCRUISERS do more damage than the Caldari's attack battleSHIP.
Edd Nicholls
Basgerin Pirate
#59 - 2013-04-08 19:24:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Edd Nicholls
oops wrong thread
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#60 - 2013-04-08 19:26:59 UTC
I don't have much faith in the Raven's changes - the gain in mobility looks too little to offset the reduced hp; the extra mid will help offset this considerably but it feels more like gaining half a slot than a whole one.

My instinct is to leave the Raven with more of the hp you're removing than further improving the mobility further as I think Cladari Dogma would inihibit it's becoming faster or more agile, though it's a real shame as I think it would be good to mix it up a little and let the Caldari for once produce something that can compete in that style of combat.